The Federation and Starfleet

[section31agent]

Well, actually Pike said that the FEDERATION was that "armada". But that was in a bar, late at night. The man was probably drunk as a skunk, having dismissed his cadets and facing down just the equally stoned wunderkind Jim Kirk...

Timo Saloniemi

Ya Pike looked sober but that made no sense at all lol. But that line about the Federation being a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada gets repeated all over here and memory alpha. I mean it sounds good, but what the hell is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada? lol. Its like the United Nations, the Red Cross and the Navy combined in one.

The Federation is a sovereign state like the United States, not a peacekeeping organization like the United Nations. And it is definitely not an armada. You can argue that United States has an armada in its US Navy, but the United States itself is not an armada. Likewise you can say the Federation has an armada in its Starfleet, but the Federation itself is no armada.

And while the United States might participate in peacekeeping or peacemaking operations authorized by the UN Security Council, the US itself is no peacekeeping organization. It is still a sovereign state that can deploy its military forces to wherever it wants without UN approval.

The Federation has never even participated in any kind of peacekeeping operation that we have seen. Yes they sometimes mediate political disputes, but peacekeeping means risking your own soldiers to keep two warring parties apart. It would be like sending starships to the Klingon-Cardassian border to prevent attacks from either side and not just protecting whoever they are allied with at the time. The Federation only deploys Starfleet to protect its own interests, it does not risk its ships in peacekeeping operations. Nor does it have the mandate to. There is no Alpha Quadrant peacekeeping organization like the United Nations where planets can vote on whether or not to deploy armed forces to intervene in a dispute. The Federation, with its own prime directive cannot appoint itself the Alpha Quadrant police

And yes the Federation, like the United States does offer humanitarian aid for things like disaster relief. But again, nobody would refer to the US or any country in general as a humanitarian organization like you would the Red Cross.

 

[telerites]

I wonder if the Federation ever went back to Sigma Iotia II to collect their 40% cut of the action?

 

[Franklin]

Well, actually Pike said that the FEDERATION was that "armada". But that was in a bar, late at night. The man was probably drunk as a skunk, having dismissed his cadets and facing down just the equally stoned wunderkind Jim Kirk...

Timo Saloniemi

Ya Pike looked sober but that made no sense at all lol. But that line about the Federation being a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada gets repeated all over here and memory alpha. I mean it sounds good, but what the hell is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada? lol. Its like the United Nations, the Red Cross and the Navy combined in one.

The Federation is a sovereign state like the United States, not a peacekeeping organization like the United Nations. And it is definitely not an armada. You can argue that United States has an armada in its US Navy, but the United States itself is not an armada. Likewise you can say the Federation has an armada in its Starfleet, but the Federation itself is no armada.

And while the United States might participate in peacekeeping or peacemaking operations authorized by the UN Security Council, the US itself is no peacekeeping organization. It is still a sovereign state that can deploy its military forces to wherever it wants without UN approval.

The Federation has never even participated in any kind of peacekeeping operation that we have seen. Yes they sometimes mediate political disputes, but peacekeeping means risking your own soldiers to keep two warring parties apart. It would be like sending starships to the Klingon-Cardassian border to prevent attacks from either side and not just protecting whoever they are allied with at the time. The Federation only deploys Starfleet to protect its own interests, it does not risk its ships in peacekeeping operations. Nor does it have the mandate to. There is no Alpha Quadrant peacekeeping organization like the United Nations where planets can vote on whether or not to deploy armed forces to intervene in a dispute. The Federation, with its own prime directive cannot appoint itself the Alpha Quadrant police

And yes the Federation, like the United States does offer humanitarian aid for things like disaster relief. But again, nobody would refer to the US or any country in general as a humanitarian organization like you would the Red Cross.

Timo, Funny how the mind plays tricks. I'd actually forgotten he said, "Federation," and inserted, "Starfleet" into my head as it seemed to make the most sense for what he described. Maybe he did have a shot or two of "something green" before sitting down with Kirk.

section31agent, it certainly makes no sense for Pike to describe the United Federation of Planets the way he did, but as peacekeepers -- and thinking of Starfleet -- my first thought was "keeping the peace" like a cop on the beat (Kirk broke up many conflicts that had little to do with Federation interests -- other than maybe he got himself dragged into them), and/or being a collective military force if a conflict broke out that threatened the Federation.

I'm wondering if the odd statement is a product of not being able to rewrite it because of the writer's strike. Or was the strike over by the time of shooting and someone could have said, "I think we really mean, 'Starfleet' here."

 

[fireproof78]

Well, actually Pike said that the FEDERATION was that "armada". But that was in a bar, late at night. The man was probably drunk as a skunk, having dismissed his cadets and facing down just the equally stoned wunderkind Jim Kirk...

Timo Saloniemi

Ya Pike looked sober but that made no sense at all lol. But that line about the Federation being a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada gets repeated all over here and memory alpha. I mean it sounds good, but what the hell is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada? lol. Its like the United Nations, the Red Cross and the Navy combined in one.

The Federation is a sovereign state like the United States, not a peacekeeping organization like the United Nations. And it is definitely not an armada. You can argue that United States has an armada in its US Navy, but the United States itself is not an armada. Likewise you can say the Federation has an armada in its Starfleet, but the Federation itself is no armada.

And while the United States might participate in peacekeeping or peacemaking operations authorized by the UN Security Council, the US itself is no peacekeeping organization. It is still a sovereign state that can deploy its military forces to wherever it wants without UN approval.

The Federation has never even participated in any kind of peacekeeping operation that we have seen. Yes they sometimes mediate political disputes, but peacekeeping means risking your own soldiers to keep two warring parties apart. It would be like sending starships to the Klingon-Cardassian border to prevent attacks from either side and not just protecting whoever they are allied with at the time. The Federation only deploys Starfleet to protect its own interests, it does not risk its ships in peacekeeping operations. Nor does it have the mandate to. There is no Alpha Quadrant peacekeeping organization like the United Nations where planets can vote on whether or not to deploy armed forces to intervene in a dispute. The Federation, with its own prime directive cannot appoint itself the Alpha Quadrant police

And yes the Federation, like the United States does offer humanitarian aid for things like disaster relief. But again, nobody would refer to the US or any country in general as a humanitarian organization like you would the Red Cross.

Timo, Funny how the mind plays tricks. I'd actually forgotten he said, "Federation," and inserted, "Starfleet" into my head as it seemed to make the most sense for what he described. Maybe he did have a shot or two of "something green" before sitting down with Kirk.

section31agent, it certainly makes no sense for Pike to describe the United Federation of Planets the way he did, but as peacekeepers -- and thinking of Starfleet -- my first thought was "keeping the peace" like a cop on the beat (Kirk broke up many conflicts that had little to do with Federation interests -- other than maybe he got himself dragged into them), and/or being a collective military force if a conflict broke out that threatened the Federation.

I'm wondering if the odd statement is a product of not being able to rewrite it because of the writer's strike. Or was the strike over by the time of shooting and someone could have said, "I think we really mean, 'Starfleet' here."

I would be inclined to think that the intent was "Starfleet" and would be curious to see if it is mentioned in the movie' commentary.

I certainly don't mind the "peacekeeping and humanitarian" description of Starfleet, either. It kind of goes back to the idea of being on the frontier, providing an example of federal authority and law enforcement, without explicitly calling it a military force.

Obviously, Starfleet has martial power, and Kirk describes himself as a soldier at one point, but that hardly describes every aspect of Starfleet's role in the Federation.

 

[T'Girl]

I wouldn't be surprised if the president of the Federation is also the American equivalent of "commander in chief" of Starfleet.

While the Federation President does self-proclaim to be such, it's made clear in the vast majority of episodes that the power (if not the title) of commander in chief rests with the Federation Council in some fashion.

After all, Kirk faced the President of the Federation in the Federation Council Chamber when he was charged and disciplined in TVH ...

I took that to mean the President didn't have a lot of officially duties. I mean can you imagine President Obama presiding over (or even being present) at a courts martial?

But again, nobody would refer to the US or any country in general as a humanitarian organization like you would the Red Cross.

$33.7 billion planned in US government foreign aid for FY 2016, the US military is often sent to natural disasters. Charitable contributions by US individuals, religions, corporations, and foundations last year was about $335 billion. Hard to say how much of that went domestic and how much foreign.

The US is very much a humanitarian nation.

peacekeeping means risking your own soldiers to keep two warring parties apart

Peacekeeping means engaging in activities that create conditions that favor a lasting peace, and wouldn't necessarily include keeping opposing factions apart (but it might). Elaan of Troyius would be an example of the Federation engaging in peacekeeping.

 

[trynda1701]

Talking about the Commander in Chief being the Federation President isn't correct. According to "The Undiscovered Country", the CinC is shown as a Starfleet Flag Officer.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Admiral Bill is listed in the credits as "Chief in Command". Not "Commander in Chief". There is a difference, apparently.

 

[Franklin]

^ Admiral Bill is listed in the credits as "Chief in Command". Not "Commander in Chief". There is a difference, apparently.

He'd be like the chair of the joint chiefs of staff, the highest ranking "military" person in Starfleet. I think most democracies today have a civilian (elected head of government) as the ultimate C and C.

 

[T'Girl]

I think most democracies today have a civilian (elected head of government) as the ultimate C and C.

In Ireland the President is Supreme Commander of the Defense Forces, however the appointed Minister of Defense actually exercises the powers of "C in C" and reports directly to the Irish government.

The Commander in Chief of the United Kingdom's Armed Forces is Elizabeth II, but she delegates the little details to the Prime Minister.

In more than a few countries the C in C is a head of government who isn't chosen by the populace but by the nation's legislature.

 

[Franklin]

I think most democracies today have a civilian (elected head of government) as the ultimate C and C.

In Ireland the President is Supreme Commander of the Defense Forces, however the appointed Minister of Defense actually exercises the powers of "C in C" and reports directly to the Irish government.

The Commander in Chief of the United Kingdom's Armed Forces is Elizabeth II, but she delegates the little details to the Prime Minister.

In more than a few countries the C in C is a head of government who isn't chosen by the populace but by the nation's legislature.

Well, the point with the President, PM, or whomever in government as C and C and the leader of the military is that makes the military accountable to the people through a democratically elected government. Theoretically, idea that supreme military authority is autonomous and not accountable to the people or government is one thing that leads to military overthrows of governments and military dictatorships.

 

[section31agent]

$33.7 billion planned in US government foreign aid for FY 2016, the US military is often sent to natural disasters. Charitable contributions by US individuals, religions, corporations, and foundations last year was about $335 billion. Hard to say how much of that went domestic and how much foreign.

The US is very much a humanitarian nation.

I never said Americans aren't a charitable people lol, but I would not define the US government or the US military a humanitarian organization. Their primary purpose it to serve American interests, not provide disaster relief to the rest of the world.

Peacekeeping means engaging in activities that create conditions that favor a lasting peace, and wouldn't necessarily include keeping opposing factions apart (but it might). Elaan of Troyius would be an example of the Federation engaging in peacekeeping.

Again, just because they did a transport mission to help a couple planets sign a treaty doesn't make Starfleet a peacekeeping organization. Their primary purpose is to serve Federation interests just like the US military's purpose is to serve American interests.

It's totally different from real UN peacekeeping missions where you have thousands of soldiers from all around the world being deployed to prevent a possible war between two countries that probably have nothing to do with their homeland. They risk their lives for someone else's country.

Starfleet talks a lot about keeping the peace but they only care about maintaining their own peace and security. That is not peacekeeping, that is just what the military is supposed to do for its own state. A true peacekeeping organization like the UN is supposed to maintain peace for everyone. Starfleet was worried about Klingon interest in the Troyian system and they wanted to keep them out so they send Kirk. But when the Cardassians invaded Bajor, they didn't lift a finger.

 

[fireproof78]

$33.7 billion planned in US government foreign aid for FY 2016, the US military is often sent to natural disasters. Charitable contributions by US individuals, religions, corporations, and foundations last year was about $335 billion. Hard to say how much of that went domestic and how much foreign.

The US is very much a humanitarian nation.

I never said Americans aren't a charitable people lol, but I would not define the US government or the US military a humanitarian organization. Their primary purpose it to serve American interests, not provide disaster relief to the rest of the world.

Peacekeeping means engaging in activities that create conditions that favor a lasting peace, and wouldn't necessarily include keeping opposing factions apart (but it might). Elaan of Troyius would be an example of the Federation engaging in peacekeeping.

Again, just because they did a transport mission to help a couple planets sign a treaty doesn't make Starfleet a peacekeeping organization. Their primary purpose is to serve Federation interests just like the US military's purpose is to serve American interests.

It's totally different from real UN peacekeeping missions where you have thousands of soldiers from all around the world being deployed to prevent a possible war between two countries that probably have nothing to do with their homeland. They risk their lives for someone else's country.

Starfleet talks a lot about keeping the peace but they only care about maintaining their own peace and security. That is not peacekeeping, that is just what the military is supposed to do for its own state. A true peacekeeping organization like the UN is supposed to maintain peace for everyone. Starfleet was worried about Klingon interest in the Troyian system and they wanted to keep them out so they send Kirk. But when the Cardassians invaded Bajor, they didn't lift a finger.

"Peacekeeping" can also refer to internal disputes, enforcement and the like.

Peacekeeping does not have to occur just outside of a power's sphere of influence.

 

[Ithekro]

I would point out that the UN is also only maintaining their own "state" as it were, since its "state" is basically the entire planet. Just about every country on earth is part of the UN, but it is not the world government because those countries have not given up enough power to the UN to have it governing them. It can put out suggestions, and the like, but it does not rule the planet at this time, nor does it have the ability to rule the planet at this time.

 

[Phantom]

Couple of points:

1) Given that Federation member races have sovereignty within their own cultures and spheres of influence, it is correct to compare the Federation more with the UN than with the US.

2) At least one example of the Federation using Starfleet for peacekeeping operations was it's intervention between the Klingons and Romulans during the Klingon Civil War.

 

[T'Girl]

"Peacekeeping" can also refer to internal disputes, enforcement and the like.

Peacekeeping can also be helping to rebuild government institutions and civilian infrastructure following a conflict. Example would be what American did in Europe and Japan after WWII, and Iraq over the last decade.

Given that Federation member races have sovereignty within their own cultures and spheres of influence, it is correct to compare the Federation more with the UN than with the US

Agree.

I would point out that the UN is also only maintaining their own "state" as it were, since its "state" is basically the entire planet.

Given the use of quotation marks, sure. As far as Humans having a world government, the UN at it present level of power and authority will hopefully be as good as it ever gets. Something a little less important might be better still.

Just about every country on earth is part of the UN, but it is not the world government because those countries have not given up enough power to the UN to have it governing them.

There is a article in the UN Charter that would allow the UN to have it's own military forces, no UN Member was ever stupid enough to let this idiotic provision proceed.

Again, just because they did a transport mission to help a couple planets sign a treaty doesn't make Starfleet a peacekeeping organization.

If your requirement for a peacekeeping organization be that this is all they do, then there's never been a peacekeeping organization.

However, if a organization engaging in peacekeeping activities makes them a peacekeeping organization then Starfleet is a peacekeeping organization.

They risk their lives for someone else's country

Plus their home government gets paid over a thousand dollars per month for each person they supply for a peacekeeping mission.

 

[section31agent]

Couple of points:

1) Given that Federation member races have sovereignty within their own cultures and spheres of influence, it is correct to compare the Federation more with the UN than with the US.

2) At least one example of the Federation using Starfleet for peacekeeping operations was it's intervention between the Klingons and Romulans during the Klingon Civil War.

1) Vulcan and Andor have as much sovereignty as the State of California. They are still subject to the authority of the US Federal government. California doesn't have the ability to invade Texas for example.

2) This is probably the closest Starfleet has done to a peacekeeping mission in the traditional sense. But there isn't threat of war going on between the Romulans and Klingons themselves. And also they are only trying to catch Romulan ships. Part of a true peacekeeping mission requires that the UN troops remain impartial. As in they could engage either side that tries to encroach their position

 

[section31agent]

They risk their lives for someone else's country

Plus their home government gets paid over a thousand dollars per month for each person they supply for a peacekeeping mission.

Oh I absolutely agree that the governments that volunteer for UN missions have their own financial motives. Otherwise no country would volunteer. But it doesn't change the fact that those soldiers who are being sent on those missions are risking their lives to protect people that may have very little to do with the interests of their home country

I think any person that is willing to serve their country and fight a war to defend their homeland is a hero. But to say you are willing to risk your life to stop a genocide in some far away country, like Rwanda for example is another thing.

The UN troops in Rwanda saved as many lives as they could (and several died in the process) but the overall mission was still considered a failure because the Security Council powers were not willing to contribute enough troops to fulfill the UN mandate.

Now on the other hand when the Cardassians were putting Bajorans into concentration camps, the Federation does nothing. And it's not considered a failure because their mandate is to NOT interfere

That is why I think to compare the Federation to what the United Nations does is a pretty bad analogy. I think an organization who's prime directive is non-interference shouldn't be calling itself a peacekeeping organization. Being peacekeepers meaning you are willing to interfere and risk your own countrymen to protect people in far away country for no reason other than they are fellow human (sentient) beings

 

[T'Girl]

Vulcan and Andor have as much sovereignty as the State of California.

Well, Vulcan has it own separate starbases (Take Me out to the Holosuite), it's own military starships (Unification), it's own interstellar intelligence service, it's own foreign policy separate from the Federation, has foreign embassies on it's soil (not a consulate), and exchanges Ambassadors with other Federation Members.

In Journey to Babel, Ambassador Sarek represented his government, his government being the government of Vulcan, not the government of the Federation. In Journey to Babel, the Member worlds (and not the Federation government) decide if a outside world gets to join the Federation.

In TVH, Kirk and crew were safe from Federation jurisprudence while on Vulcan soil.

Not even close to California.

They are still subject to the authority of the US Federal government. California doesn't have the ability to invade Texas for example.

When have we seen Member worlds being subject to the authority of the Federation Council? The closest was once where the Council set a interstellar speed limit in a certain area of space.

Would you like to introduce information from the novels and games into this discussion?

 

[Ithekro]

California invades just about every other state all the time. We just call it tourism. We've taken the Alamo three dozen times in the last decade.

As for what the Federation did when Cardassia invaded Bajor. We don't know what they did, but we know the Federation was in a state of conflict with Cardassia over a long period of time until about the time Cardassia left Bajor. It is entirely possible that the Federation was trying to help Bajor, but it led to war with the Cardassian Union.

 

[Timo]

Vulcan has it own separate starbases (Take Me out to the Holosuite), it's own military starships (Unification)

So does Earth. In neither case is there explicit evidence that these would be separate from the unified Starfleet organization-wise - they just happen to be in Vulcan or Earth territory (and every starbase has to be in somebody's territory, or they'd call it a Deep Space Station ).

In Journey to Babel, Ambassador Sarek represented his government, his government being the government of Vulcan, not the government of the Federation.

...But only insofar as providing Vulcan with a UFP-internal vote on an ultimate joint UFP foreign policy decision. There is no sign that Vulcan could take one policy with Coridan while Andor takes another. Quite to the contrary, swaying the all-important sum total of votes is the apparent goal of the Orion players there.

So we're not really talking about a government here, merely a "sub-government". Possibly almost but not completely unlike California, but a sub-government nevertheless.

In TVH, Kirk and crew were safe from Federation jurisprudence while on Vulcan soil.

Earth jurisprudence, at any rate, what with the crew being Earthlings all.

Timo Saloniemi