Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[Phantom]

As a matter of fact, I do.

Good. Then you remember that there hasn't been a SINGLE instance of Time travel where the crew of the Enterprise didn't actively interfere in the past.

Only when they had to and only to the extent they had to to restore the past (as best they could). All in accordance with Starfleet policy that we would later know as the Temporal Prime Directive.

They may have RESTORED the existing timeline as best as they could manage it, but they have never refrained from interfering, and rarely put much thought into it.

If you can't understand the difference between restoring a broken timeline and breaking one in the first place, you need to spend more time studying the concepts.

Or it may be you do understand and are just trolling...I'm not 100% certain which is correct.

First Contact is the worst offender by far:

"Oh, the Borg blew up the phoenix? Well, let's send down an entire engineering team to rebuild the thing and temporarily replace Cochrane's entire rocket team, plus his co-pilot, plus his capcom, and let's even use a bunch of our futuristic technology to make sure this thing goes off without a hitch. Should be fine."

Again: repairing is not the same as breaking. The Borg had already broken the timeline and assimilated Earth in the past. Picard and crew were doing what they had to do to put it back together again.

Time travel stories imply the direct tampering with the past; if you're not changing anything, it's almost a wasted effort, you might as well just watch a documentary.

Yes, that was the whole POINT of going back. To see what really happened, the ultimate "live" documentary. They did not go back planning to change anything, as Starfleet policy demanded.

As a matter of fact, I do. In A:E, the Enterprise was there merely to observe events, not to interfere. That only happened due them becoming aware of Gary Seven and his activities, which they mistook for external interference with Earth and history, which was within their mandate to counter/remedy.

That's the whole point. They can't be aware of every variable, as we see in the episode. Yet they go and muck around in the past again in "Yesteryear".

Only because they had to to satisfy the predestination paradox to restore Spock to the timeline.

 

[BillJ]

Only because they had to to satisfy the predestination paradox to restore Spock to the timeline.

Umm...

KIRK: What a trip, Bones. Orion, at the dawn of its civilization. Even just observing, not touching anything for fear of changing some piece of history. What's the matter? Bones?

That happens before they realize there's an issue.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Horseapples! Read the reactions of the fans at the time

I have. As far as I can tell, the fans expressed quiet disappointment that the music wasn't more dramatic. Same complaints as everyone else.

Again "Play it safe" is not the same thing as "pander to fans." The latter is taking an actual risk for entertainment value; the former is avoiding a risk in the hope that some OTHER factor will make up for it. Simply put: the Berman crew sank most of their creativity into things that didn't land as well because the overall presentation was too conservative. The choice to add an existential Earth-ending crisis for ENT's 3rd season was a good one, IMO, and the innovation with the depiction of the Xindi was also very imaginative. But those ideas were executed using a series of half-measures and tired cliches that left the final product largely underwhelming.

A better example might be in the formula used for story content. Rather than risk a potentially controversial or dramatically loaded development (e.g. a romance between Janeway and Chakotay; dialog that sounds too relatable to common people; Voyager actually running out of torpedoes and/or needing to make more), they went back to a pre-determined baseline every single time. Thus the Maquis characters look and sound exactly like their Starfleet counterparts; Chakotay goes from hotheaded terrorist leader to Dedicated First Officer in the space of fifteen minutes, and Voyager makes it all the way to the Alpha Quadrant without so much as a scratch on the paint.

You mean like ST.com did? I linked to the interview...

You would rather read an interview from 8 years ago than ASK THE MAN YOURSELF?

And it's back to what amounts to "sit down and shut up", is it?

Well, you ARE sitting down...

 

[Phantom]

Only because they had to to satisfy the predestination paradox to restore Spock to the timeline.

Umm...

KIRK: What a trip, Bones. Orion, at the dawn of its civilization. Even just observing, not touching anything for fear of changing some piece of history. What's the matter? Bones?

That happens before they realize there's an issue.

Which is part of the paradox. You have to think relatively when you think about time travel since it's non-linear in terms of the absolute timeline. A time loop or paradox that appears one way to those caught in it when viewed from the larger perspective afterwards can look very different.

A better example might be in the formula used for story content. Rather than risk a potentially controversial or dramatically loaded development (e.g. a romance between Janeway and Chakotay; dialog that sounds too relatable to common people; Voyager actually running out of torpedoes and/or needing to make more), they went back to a pre-determined baseline every single time. Thus the Maquis characters look and sound exactly like their Starfleet counterparts; Chakotay goes from hotheaded terrorist leader to Dedicated First Officer in the space of fifteen minutes, and Voyager makes it all the way to the Alpha Quadrant without so much as a scratch on the paint.

Which has exactly what to do with Berman ignoring the fans and implementing "sonic wallpaper" scoring? Ron Jones was taking those risks musically (and garnering great praise for doing so) and Berman shut him down. That was the exact opposite of "pandering to the fans".

And it's back to what amounts to "sit down and shut up", is it?

Well, you ARE sitting down...

Last time, I am NOT going to keep my opinions to myself just because you, Dennis, Bill, or whoever don't like them.

If you have something substantive to say to me, I'll reply substantively, as this exchange above shows.

If you're just going to (again) tell me that I should be silent simply because you don't like my views, you're wasting your time and mine.

 

[BillJ]

Which is part of the paradox. You have to think relatively when you think about time travel since it's non-linear in terms of the absolute timeline. A time loop or paradox that appears one way to those caught in it when viewed from the larger perspective afterwards can look very different.

The point being, they didn't have any issues with mucking around in the past.

Last time, I am NOT going to keep my opinions to myself just because you, Dennis, Bill, or whoever don't like them.

No one has told you too. It is great fun to pick this stuff apart.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If you can't understand the difference between restoring a broken timeline and breaking one in the first place, you need to spend more time studying the concepts.

"Studying" the concept of time travel?

It's science fiction, dude. The "concept" is purely embodied in science fiction that deals with it. I can't help that Star Trek uses this concept exactly the same as any other science fiction production and the use is this: the purpose of time travel is to change the past.

Not as a matter of in-universe logic. Not as a matter of "our mission today is..." Time travel as a concept in fiction serves that purpose as a plot device. Thus, there has never -- repeat, NEVER -- been an instance of time travel that did not change or SEEK to change the present by affecting the past.

Again: repairing is not the same as breaking.

But it is the same thing as "interfering," which Starfleet officers are happy to do if it serves their purposes.

Yes, that was the whole POINT of going back. To see what really happened, the ultimate "live" documentary...

And it didn't happen that way, because that's not how the "time travel" trope works. For that matter, no science fiction story in HISTORY has ever depicted people traveling back in time purely to observe. If their interference makes no difference, it's because their interference is what caused those historical events in the first place.

Only because they had to to satisfy the predestination paradox to restore Spock to the timeline.

They didn't actually HAVE to, though. They CHOSE to, mainly as a favor to Spock. The Temporal Prime directive (LOL) wouldn't have even allowed for THAT much.

 

[Campe]

So, hey... Star Trek Beyond! It's filming. There's a script, a budget, standing sets, a cast, a director, a crew, a composer, a few writers, a contest for your chance to appear or visit the set.

We have veered WAY off topic. Can we talk about the movie again?

Please?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which has exactly what to do with Berman ignoring the fans and implementing "sonic wallpaper" scoring? Ron Jones was taking those risks musically (and garnering great praise for doing so) and Berman shut him down. That was the exact opposite of "pandering to the fans".

Which would be why I wrote:

"Play it safe" is not the same thing as "pander to fans."

Berman told Jones NOT to take those risks musically (regardless of the praise) because he wanted to play it safe.

They sunk their creativity into other issues -- story development, prop design, ships, costumes, makeup, etc -- but the execution of them came off as underwhelming. The musical score is part of that. But that's different from saying they lacked creativity.

Last time, I am NOT going to keep my opinions to myself just because you, Dennis, Bill, or whoever don't like them.

No one has asked you to. Christopher's advice was that you should not express surprise when your decision to voice your opinions in the way that you do earns you the ire of your peers. Which it apparently has/is/will in the future.

If you choose not to treat others with civility, I can only assume that is the way you wish to be treated yourself.

So, hey... Star Trek Beyond! It's filming. There's a script, a budget, standing sets, a cast, a director, a crew, a composer, a few writers, a contest for your chance to appear or visit the set.

We have veered WAY off topic. Can we talk about the movie again?

Please?

Eh.

We're just killing time while we wait for the next little crumbs of information to land on our plates so we can break it down to its constituent molecules and debate the structure of its covalent bonds. [/voyagerspeak]

 

[fireproof78]

Here's the thing: I think that Abrams Trek did keep to the essence of TOS, while adding a more contemporary feel and opening it up to a new audience who might not enjoy it or explore it.

Visually, maybe, but the writing and characterizations are way over-simplified and caricatured. And in the case of Kirk, inverted, particularly in the first film. The grim, studious, "stack of books with legs" Kirk has been replaced with a smirking frat boy hiding under womens' beds from their roommates.

But, as Christopher pointed out in his elegant post, this Kirk lacked the paternal influence that is clearly indicated to have shaped Prime Kirk's nature. Pike's influence is shown to be the catalyst that takes nuKirk from the frat boy rebel in to a leader that we know he can be.

He is reaching for his potential, as GR would put it.

CBS needs a demonstration of profitability first.

Decades of successful programming that have brought over a billion dollars to the studio.

That was then, and the market place has changed.

I think Campe98 describe it it well when he stated that CBS doesn't have to lift a finger right now and they will stake make money on Trek, both with the new films, and all the merchandising.

CBS is making a purely business decision to not invest additional money in to a franchise, and risk losing it, when they know they can get a safe check right now.

I may not agree with their decision but I cannot fault the business end of it.

Why is that a "slap in the Prime fans face?"

I'm trying to follow, but I'll admit, I'm struggling here. Please take my questions as legitimate curiosity of your point of view.

It's one thing entirely to have an AU where things happen differently, leaving the original timeline intact.

It's quite another thing to tell fans of the original timeline that "we're gonna take your timeline and make it go away and replace it with ours Essentially, it amounts to rubbing Prime fans' faces in the fact that NuTrek is now the only property CBS/Paramount gives a crap about. It's deliberately hurtful.

Ironically, I think 09 and ID would be better received if they had just "clean" rebooted, but they didn't. They chose to invoke the Prime universe in their origin story, therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too, and Prime fans rightly cried "foul!"

Star Trek has ignored rules all the time for the story's sake. That is not new.

The new movies took steps to ensure that they didn't erase the Prime continuity, but treated it as a parallel time line to the Prime one. The writers attempted to make that clear, but there was still room for interpretation.

Also, I will respectfully disagree that CBS cares only for the new Trek films. Their press kit indicates that "Classic Trek" is still the foundation of their business, at least for marketing. As mentioned above, CBS markets more with Prime Trek than new Trek, because that is guaranteed money. A new Prime show series is not.

As with Internet forums, I am of the opinion not to be offended by the business decisions of corporations.

I don't follow the insult here.

 

[JoeZhang]

Considering how Andorian makeup is done, their hair would pretty much have to be a wig put on over the prosthetic piece. So there'd be no reason for an actress to actually dye her hair white if she were playing an Andorian (well, unless they're doing the antennae digitally this time).

even normal hair colour is no guarantee - Gillian Anderson for example is wearing a wig all the way through the new x-files...

 

[thumbtack]

There is no conceivable way to rationalize that Dr. Who is all occurring in the same continuity.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Casting news!

Indonesian actor and martial artist Joe Taslim ("The Raid") has joined the cast of Justin Lin's "Star Trek Beyond".

Taslim's role is said to be a key part playing opposite the film's main villain Idris Elba. It's a familiar position for Taslim who was in the same position opposite Luke Evans in the Lin-directed "Fast and Furious 6".

 

[Campe]

Also, I will respectfully disagree that CBS cares only for the new Trek films. Their press kit indicates that "Classic Trek" is still the foundation of their business, at least for marketing. As mentioned above, CBS markets more with Prime Trek than new Trek, because that is guaranteed money. A new Prime show series is not.

As much as I hate and disagree with about 90% of the ramblings of the Para Troopers/Talifans/"Truthers," the one thing I will say they're right on about is the amount of merchandising out there for the Prime Universe vs. the JJverse. There is so much out there for fans of the Prime Universe, particularly the original series. Whereas the JJverse? Well, there were some actions figures. A few books. Some Lego like things. A few Halloween costumes. Maybe a notebook. That was about it.

 

[M'Sharak]

If they were to slap Prime fans in the face like that, that would be my "walking point".

I wouldn't blame you, personally. If you have the personality type that such a minor change would completely ruin your enjoyment of an entire television franchise for the rest of your life, you should definitely walk away and find something else to entertain you.

That's not helping.

I like discussions just fine. It's your bitching I find tiresome.

I gave you the solution, if you feel that strongly about it.

Nor is this...

^Overreliance on raw data that isn't properly contexted and analyzed is the mark of a poor debater, Dennis.

And if you don't want to sing, that's fine by me. Your signing voice is terrible...

... nor this.

Get rid of the personal digs. All of them.

Phantom, you in particular need to jettison the gigantic chip on your shoulder, and do it now. If you wish to discuss, then by all means discuss, but we can all do without the melodramatic banner of "poor, oppressed Prime fans being made to sit down, shut up and watch while something awful is perpetrated" that you keep waving provocatively, as if it were a bullfighter's cape.

Here's a secret, Phantom - an important clue you've been overlooking: most of those terrible, terrible nuTrek fans you've been railing about? They're Prime fans, too, the same as you, and they have been all along. Instead of walking in here with your chin stuck out, looking for a fight, perhaps you could put that effort and energy into a more productive task: grasping and understanding just what it is that Prime fans like about these movies. If you do that and find in the end that it's still not for you, well, then you will have tried, and you can move on with a clear conscience to something which better suits your viewing pleasure.

But enough with the defiant posturing, OK? Just lose that. It's only making you look like a seriously unpleasant person to be around.

POST, NOT POSTER, people. I really don't want this thread closed because a couple of people are feuding and/or getting personal.

^ This right here is another important clue. ^

Everyone should remember this one, particularly Phantom and Crazy Eddie (the latter of whom really ought to know better by now. )


*******************

Berman posts here occasionally, or used to at any rate; you should probably ask him directly if you want the inside story.

No, I don't think that was ever the case. While there was almost certainly a staffer monitoring threads here during Enterprise's run, and while ENT writers MikeSussman and DavidAGoodman did occasionally post here during that same period, I'm not aware of Berman ever having had an account or posting here.

 

[JoeZhang]

There is no conceivable way to rationalize that Dr. Who is all occurring in the same continuity.

No idea what that is about but it's a british TV show - we get around that by not giving a shit

 

[Mudd]

^Overreliance on raw data that isn't properly contexted and analyzed is the mark of a poor debater.

I'm not debating you; you're putting nothing meaningful forward as a proposition to debate. I'm simply holding you to a standard that at least addresses real on the subject of what happened to Trek on television, as a corrective to your continuing reliance entirely on opinion and anecdotes that reinforce your opinion.

 

[Christopher]

Also, I will respectfully disagree that CBS cares only for the new Trek films. Their press kit indicates that "Classic Trek" is still the foundation of their business, at least for marketing. As mentioned above, CBS markets more with Prime Trek than new Trek, because that is guaranteed money. A new Prime show series is not.

Also, Classic Trek is 100% CBS's baby, whereas the profits for the Abrams movies are shared with Paramount (now a separate company) and Bad Robot. So it's certainly not valid to think that CBS only cares about the new films.

even normal hair colour is no guarantee - Gillian Anderson for example is wearing a wig all the way through the new x-files...

Did she get a face lift too? Maybe that's an impolite question, but I do not recognize her at all in the new photos, and I'm wondering why.

While there was almost certainly a staffer monitoring threads here during Enterprise's run, and while ENT writers MikeSussman and DavidAGoodman did occasionally post here during that same period, I'm not aware of Berman ever having had an account or posting here.

Mr. Goodman still posts here. He's recently been active in the Trek Literature thread about his upcoming Autobiography of James T. Kirk. I think Mr. Sussman has posted more recently than the end of ENT as well, though it's been longer since I've seen a post from him.

 

[fireproof78]

Mr. Goodman still posts here. He's recently been active in the Trek Literature thread about his upcoming Autobiography of James T. Kirk. I think Mr. Sussman has posted more recently than the end of ENT as well, though it's been longer since I've seen a post from him.

Really?

That sounds very interesting. Thanks, Christopher!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Also, I will respectfully disagree that CBS cares only for the new Trek films. Their press kit indicates that "Classic Trek" is still the foundation of their business, at least for marketing. As mentioned above, CBS markets more with Prime Trek than new Trek, because that is guaranteed money. A new Prime show series is not.

As much as I hate and disagree with about 90% of the ramblings of the Para Troopers/Talifans/"Truthers," the one thing I will say they're right on about is the amount of merchandising out there for the Prime Universe vs. the JJverse. There is so much out there for fans of the Prime Universe, particularly the original series. Whereas the JJverse? Well, there were some actions figures. A few books. Some Lego like things. A few Halloween costumes. Maybe a notebook. That was about it.

It's been mostly in merchandizing hell for toy sales, with some obscure off-brand lego-wannabe getting the licensing for toy sales (instead of, say, lego or megablocks). Likewise, they simply re-issued the costume/prop toys from STXI for the new film without adding anything new. The "iconic vehicle" Enterprise from STXI was re-released too for STID without any real changes (although I'm told the sound chip was modified). This marks the first time in a LONG time (ever?) that a new Star Trek movie has come out and had little or nothing to show for it in the toy stores.

On the other hand, Hotwheels made good with some of their ship releases and the Eaglemoss magazines/models are top notch. Model kits are available too. So there's SOME stuff out there, just not very accessible and you have to know to look for it.

I suppose I have to wait five or six years for Diamond Toys to decide to do a Kelvin and a Vengeance so I can complete my Admiral Marcus shelf downstairs....

 

[ComicGuy89]

Speaking of merchandising, has there been any news regarding who has the Star Trek Beyond master toy license? Or is it still too early to tell? I don't think Hasbro would be interested in keeping it (which is a bit too sad, because they could have done a better job with STiD).