Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[Campe]

We're all complex animals. To confine someone (ETA: even a fictional character) to one adjective is unfair and unrealistic. "Smart" vs. "Horny" for instance here. Why can't you be smart and horny? Adventurous and diplomatic? Serious one moment. Funny the next.

The fact that they reference that Kirk aced his aptitude tests proves that they did not ignore that when writing the 2009 Trek movie. But an important part of the perception of Kirk's persona is that he is a ladies' man. Did they overdo it? Perhaps. But it's a different timeline (alternate reality, mirror universe, parallel dimension... whatever... I think for story's purposes, they all mean the exact same thing). This Jim Kirk did not have a fatherly influence in his life. While having many of the same traits as Prime Jim Kirk, nuKirk developed them differently.

But again, at the end of Into Darkness, you see a Kirk who is willing to put himself before his crew. A Kirk who in some ways is still very immature but in others has matured even more than a 53-year-old(?) Kirk in Wrath of Khan. He's a leader. And that's exactly what he should be.

I do hope Beyond shows a Jim Kirk who's a lot less focused on women and adventure and more focused on his role as a commander of a Starship. That always seemed like such a big thing in the original series.

 

[mos6507]

Ford Motor Co. manufactured the Model T for almost twenty years, selling about fifteen million of them. The T was probably the most important and influential production automobile in history.

Then it was over. Ford and the automotive industry moved on.

If you want to follow that analogy, considering that Ford retired the Model T brand completely, Trek shouldn't be brought back, but merely retired completely as a franchise and they should move onto a completely new sci-fi concept to take its place.

A better analogy might be things like the VW New Beetle (no longer having a rear flat-4 air-cooled engine), Dodge Dart, Fiat 500, Mini Cooper.

 

[mos6507]

Only when they allow that history to be a limiting constraint instead of a source of new material, which Star Trek unquestionably did. An attempt to do the same thing over and over again and avoid deviating too much from the starting conditions just leads to "paint by numbers" stories that are a lot more fun to produce than they are to watch.

The reason Berman-Trek became stale was because it was always the same creative team, not because the shows were set in the same universe.

If Rick Berman and company came up with a whole new sci-fi concept, it would probably have come out just like Berman-Trek: wallpaper scores, technobabble, and muted dramatic peaks, because that's just how he wanted things to be.

So I think the fatigue was more to do with the creative team rather than the fact there was decades of accumulated Trek lore to deal with.

 

[drt]

It's arguable that nuKirk is really more of a young Bennett/Meyerverse Kirk, who's more fratboyish character was aleady colored by fifteen years of pop-culture semi-mischaracterization.

And with regard to Doctor Who, it was much more of a reboot initially, they only slowly started fitting it into past continuity once they'd established success (and even this was pretty limited until Moffatt took over).

 

[Christopher]

The reason Berman-Trek became stale was because it was always the same creative team, not because the shows were set in the same universe.

Uhh, no, it really wasn't. TNG's showrunners (simplifying a bit) were Gene Roddenberry (season 1), Maurice Hurley (S2), Michael Piller (S3-5), and Jeri Taylor (S6-7). DS9's showrunners were Piller for the first couple of years and Ira Steven Behr for the rest. VGR's showrunners were Piller (S1-2), Taylor (S2ish-4), Brannon Braga (S5-6), and Kenneth Biller (S7). ENT's showrunners were Berman and Braga (S1-3) and Manny Coto (S4). And there were many changes in the rest of the writing staff over the years as well. For example, ENT's writing staff changed substantially every year, with Mike Sussman being the only one other than Berman and Braga to remain with the show through the whole four seasons. DS9 had a pretty consistent writing staff including Behr, Ron Moore, and Rene Echevarria, but there were others who came and went, including Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Hans Beimler, and David Weddle & Bradley Thompson. Meanwhile, VGR had its own entirely separate staff, of course.

You seem to be saying that Berman's vision overlaid the whole thing, and that's true to an extent, since he was the executive producer of all of it. But that's not the same as saying that the entire team stayed the same. Berman was the only constant -- well, other than Peter Lauritson, who was a producer on the technical side of all four modern series and all four movies, but never contributed as a writer. (A lot of fans have this bizarre notion that Berman and Braga were partners throughout, but Braga never became Berman's partner until Enterprise. He started as an intern in the later years of TNG, gradually rose through the ranks on TNG and VGR, became a showrunner in VGR season 5, and worked as a writer on the first two of the four TNG movies.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's just it: why do you need to protest someone else's opinion?

It's called discussion...that's what we're here for, isn't it? Not all opinions are going to agree.

Disagreeing with someone's opinion and PROTESTING that person having an opinion are two completely different things.

You can always put me on Ignore if you don't care to actually have a discussion instead of an "agree-fest".

I like discussions just fine. It's your bitching I find tiresome.

 

[Phantom]

therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.

No. They ignored those rules because they're ridiculous.

The temporal prime directive is the stupidest fucking thing in the history of television.

So, (assuming time travel were possible) people should be able to just frak around with history as they please?

 

[Campe]

Should they be able to frak around with history as they please? No.
Did they frak around with history as they please? I'd say at least twice a season.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If they were to slap Prime fans in the face like that, that would be my "walking point".

I wouldn't blame you, personally. If you have the personality type that such a minor change would completely ruin your enjoyment of an entire television franchise for the rest of your life, you should definitely walk away and find something else to entertain you.

Captain Kirk was never a stack of books with legs. was he smart? yes. was he highly educaded? of course. but he was an daring, adventurous ladies man first and foremost. maybe even too adventurous for Starfleet standards. through all of TOS. we only know about his academy years - being a 'stack of books' - from hearsay and nothing in 09 contradicts that.

Kirk confirmed in "Shore Leave" that as a cadet he was "positively grim." I'd call that more than hearsay.

That was likely his first year while he was still trying to fit in.

Which the Abramsverse/Academy books basically confirm: he takes an awful thumping in The Edge and spends half of Assassination Game dodging Finnegan's increasingly aggressive efforts to "kill" him with a titanium spork. McCoy at one point needles him for having a stick up his ass and Kirk, IIRC, threatens to pull the stick out and beat him to death with it.

Only when they allow that history to be a limiting constraint instead of a source of new material, which Star Trek unquestionably did. An attempt to do the same thing over and over again and avoid deviating too much from the starting conditions just leads to "paint by numbers" stories that are a lot more fun to produce than they are to watch.

The reason Berman-Trek became stale was because it was always the same creative team, not because the shows were set in the same universe.

I'm not saying it was the "universe" that was the constraint here, but the creative team's inability to deviate from established norms within it.

Enterprise deviated from established canon in some pretty dramatic ways and made no attempt to reconcile them; even so, those deviations gave them opportunities that they consistently managed to squander by recycling existing Trek tropes that made even brand new material seem old and repetitive. It would have been easy enough to slip the same deviations into STXI and retell the story of TOS and give no accounting for the changes whatsoever. That would simply be a "hard reboot" which IMO would have been preferable; if anything, using the alternate timeline workaround was an attempt to be MORE consistent with canon than was really necessary.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.

No. They ignored those rules because they're ridiculous.

The temporal prime directive is the stupidest fucking thing in the history of television.

So, (assuming time travel were possible) people should be able to just frak around with history as they please?

Do you even WATCH Star Trek?

 

[Phantom]

You seem to be saying that Berman's vision overlaid the whole thing, and that's true to an extent, since he was the executive producer of all of it. But that's not the same as saying that the entire team stayed the same. Berman was the only constant -- well, other than Peter Lauritson, who was a producer on the technical side of all four modern series and all four movies, but never contributed as a writer. (A lot of fans have this bizarre notion that Berman and Braga were partners throughout, but Braga never became Berman's partner until Enterprise. He started as an intern in the later years of TNG, gradually rose through the ranks on TNG and VGR, became a showrunner in VGR season 5, and worked as a writer on the first two of the four TNG movies.)

Whoever gave the orders to the troops, it was Berman giving the orders to those who gave the orders to the troops in the first place.

Nothing speaks more to Berman's utter creative blandness than the Ron Jones fiasco. Jones wrote true (and VERY good) scores for TNG. Berman ordered him to stop and write the "sonic wallpaper". Jones ignored him and carried on writing good scores. Berman had them undermixed in post-production beneath the sound FX and dialogue. Jones adjusted his orchestration to "punch through" the mix. Berman then fired him.

The whole sordid story was laid out in an issue of Cinefantastique (the "Trek special" issue of '93, IIRC).

Here's the text of the article, partially quoted in an old thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2553771&postcount=43

Berman even backhand admit it in an interview on ST.com, though he tries to preface his confession by saying it's NOT a confession.

http://www.startrek.com/article/rick-berman-answers-your-questions-part-1

You can always put me on Ignore if you don't care to actually have a discussion instead of an "agree-fest".

I like discussions just fine. It's your bitching I find tiresome.

I gave you the solution, if you feel that strongly about it.

No. They ignored those rules because they're ridiculous.

The temporal prime directive is the stupidest fucking thing in the history of television.

So, (assuming time travel were possible) people should be able to just frak around with history as they please?

Do you even WATCH Star Trek?

As a matter of fact, I do. In A:E, the Enterprise was there merely to observe events, not to interfere. That only happened due them becoming aware of Gary Seven and his activities, which they mistook for external interference with Earth and history, which was within their mandate to counter/remedy.

As for ST IV, yes, that scene is poorly written. I much prefer the original version of the scene (used for the novelization) that noted that McCoy and Scotty were are at the company that "historically" did invent transparent aluminium and were talking to the scientist who was credited with it's discovery. Thus the timeline was preserved.

 

[Mudd]

And so we drift off into another chorus of "Star Trek wouldn't have died on TV if they'd done X/Y/Z..." that once again ignores the only data we have in favor of anecdotes and opinions about quality.

And oldTrek's still not coming back.

 

[Phantom]

^Overreliance on raw data that isn't properly contexted and analyzed is the mark of a poor debater, Dennis.

And if you don't want to sing, that's fine by me. Your signing voice is terrible...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Nothing speaks more to Berman's utter creative blandness than the Ron Jones fiasco. Jones wrote true (and VERY good) scores for TNG. Berman ordered him to stop and write the "sonic wallpaper". Jones ignored him and carried on writing good scores. Berman had them undermixed in post-production beneath the sound FX and dialogue. Jones adjusted his orchestration to "punch through" the mix. Berman then fired him.

And because of this the "Best of Both Worlds" suite is still about the only memorable piece of music TNG ever produced (although the Encounter at Farpoint score that dominated much of Season 1 is also pretty awesome).

But where you see "creative blandness" I say "play it safe and try not to upset anyone." Even an attempt at outright fanwankery is at least a calculated risk with a definable payoff, but much of late-TNG/Voyager came down to "Don't do anything that the fans might dislike."

It occurs to me that maybe too many people grew accustomed to this pattern and now find the changes in the Abramsverse more jarring than they otherwise would be. It sort of reminds me of the time my 7 year old cousin completely LOST HER SHIT because we had the audacity to order her a pizza that had something other than cheese on it.

Berman even backhand admit it in an interview on ST.com, though he tries to preface his confession by saying it's NOT a confession.

Berman posts here occasionally, or used to at any rate; you should probably ask him directly if you want the inside story.

I gave you the solution, if you feel that strongly about it.

Actually, Christopher gave the solution a few pages back. You can take his advice or not, up to you.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As a matter of fact, I do.

Good. Then you remember that there hasn't been a SINGLE instance of Time travel where the crew of the Enterprise didn't actively interfere in the past. They may have RESTORED the existing timeline as best as they could manage it, but they have never refrained from interfering, and rarely put much thought into it.

First Contact is the worst offender by far:

"Oh, the Borg blew up the phoenix? Well, let's send down an entire engineering team to rebuild the thing and temporarily replace Cochrane's entire rocket team, plus his co-pilot, plus his capcom, and let's even use a bunch of our futuristic technology to make sure this thing goes off without a hitch. Should be fine."

Time travel stories imply the direct tampering with the past; if you're not changing anything, it's almost a wasted effort, you might as well just watch a documentary.

As for ST IV, yes, that scene is poorly written.

That scene was actually FANTASTICALLY written, it just happens to have a single inconsistency that disagrees with your preconceptions about how Star Trek is supposed to handle time travel.

The negativity continues.

 

[Sector 7]

POST, NOT POSTER, people. I really don't want this thread closed because a couple of people are feuding and/or getting personal.

 

[Phantom]

Nothing speaks more to Berman's utter creative blandness than the Ron Jones fiasco. Jones wrote true (and VERY good) scores for TNG. Berman ordered him to stop and write the "sonic wallpaper". Jones ignored him and carried on writing good scores. Berman had them undermixed in post-production beneath the sound FX and dialogue. Jones adjusted his orchestration to "punch through" the mix. Berman then fired him.

And because of this the "Best of Both Worlds" suite is still about the only memorable piece of music TNG ever produced (although the Encounter at Farpoint score that dominated much of Season 1 is also pretty awesome).

Both of which pre-date Berman's unchecked rule. GR and Bob Justman were still there to defend traditional Trek scoring and support the composers.

Which just proves my point.

But where you see "creative blandness" I say "play it safe and try not to upset anyone." Even an attempt at outright fanwankery is at least a calculated risk with a definable payoff, but much of late-TNG/Voyager came down to "Don't do anything that the fans might dislike."

Horseapples! Read the reactions of the fans at the time, not to mention the industry pros. They disliked Berman's "sonic wallpaper intensely but he persisted with it.

The CF article that I linked to the quote of earlier is full quotes about it.

Berman even backhand admit it in an interview on ST.com, though he tries to preface his confession by saying it's NOT a confession.

Berman posts here occasionally, or used to at any rate; you should probably ask him directly if you want the inside story.[/quote]

You mean like ST.com did? I linked to the interview...

I gave you the solution, if you feel that strongly about it.

Actually, Christopher gave the solution a few pages back. You can take his advice or not, up to you.

And it's back to what amounts to "sit down and shut up", is it?

 

[BillJ]

Do you even WATCH Star Trek?

This is the question that always pops up for me in these discussions. It seems there is some version of Star Trek I haven't seen that one must know the secret handshake to acquire.

But it sure in the world ain't the one that plays on TV.

 

[Campe]

^Overreliance on raw data that isn't properly contexted and analyzed is the mark of a poor debater, Dennis.

It's a trend. It's a downward spiral at that. What other context and analysis do you need? Episode dates? Titles? Numbers of viewers? Look at Wikipedia or Memory Alpha. It's all there. And it shows exactly the same information as in the chart.

I don't know why this is difficult to accept.

 

[BillJ]

As a matter of fact, I do. In A:E, the Enterprise was there merely to observe events, not to interfere. That only happened due them becoming aware of Gary Seven and his activities, which they mistook for external interference with Earth and history, which was within their mandate to counter/remedy.

That's the whole point. They can't be aware of every variable, as we see in the episode. Yet they go and muck around in the past again in "Yesteryear".