Depression/Suicide (This May Get Very Personal)

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Brie, May 8, 2015.

  1. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Aw, thank you. You're a sweetheart. *hugs*

    You too?! I've starting having memory lapses a lot more often. There's always the occasional scatterbrained moment, but lately I've been forgetting real details about big things.

    I hope your mind calms down. *hugs*

    I try, but the very nature of what I do requires me to constantly be aware of what's going on around me. I can't really get into a film, or do anything other than a shallow diversion, because I have to be listening at all times. It gets exhausting.
     
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    J. I'm not sure who equates potential with success? The only place you would hear this (I think) would be in high school from teachers whose job it is to constantly encourage students. Potential is just an estimation of the raw material we all start out with. I could have the genes of a super athlete (haha) and be told every day in gym class about my amazing potential but if I don't choose to make that my primary goal absolutely nothing will come of it and the same is true for smarts and academic prowess. Rereading your original post in this thread it seems that you made choices when you left school that weren't about your potential at all, but about your parent's needs. There were probably scholarships you could have applied for etc.. but unfortunately when we are teenagers we often need people steering us into filling out forms and making intelligent choices because all we know is the small world of high school and family. My dad still talks about how my sister and I were "smart" like this was some crowning achievement but as there was zero family direction, zero financial assistance and we were both jettisoned into unsupported adulthood by the time we were 16 neither of us did anything "smart". Big disconnect with dad still taking some weird pride in our being "smart" when it went nowhere.

    Anyway, you made choices not about your potential but about your family. I have read you talk about that with a familial pride many times over the years, it made you feel good that you were supporting them because supporting people is a good thing. But healthy adults want more than anything to see their kids leave, create their own lives and succeed at them. They don't want their young adults supporting them financially because they know the young adult needs to learn to save and spend wisely for their own life.

    So I am really asking here, what would you have done differently? This may seem like a pointless or intrusive question but I have found that it's very useful when I've asked myself this because it shines a light on what you could be doing now.

    As to your immediate position as carer, if your mom is so disabled as to you being unable to even watch a film because you have to be listening at all times I think you should revisit the idea of nursing homes. Because that is where she is going to end up as a result of the crisis you feel is looming as far as a breakdown. In my experience people often have a total breakdown because that's the way out that doesn't involve hard choices, the choices are simply too awful and there is too much pushback from other people not wanting you to make them so you check out in such a way as to choices being out of your hands. Your body is literally crying for help and the only way you will get the help is the day you collapse and almost die. But you can still decide today that you are in a terrible position and the changes that would happen if you dropped dead of a heart attack can and should happen now while you are still here.

    Don't feel bad about hounding your family, you said you told them how you feel and I would encourage you to email your wider family as many times as you need to and basically make your crisis their crisis. You have said your brother is a big church goer, I would suggest that if your and your mom's crisis was his crisis he would be asking for help from his church, people to come and stay with your mom a couple days a week. This is not a huge thing, communities do this to help out all the time. And I repeat if her medical care needs are so great that the average person could not do it then you need to look at getting her into whatever care she would end up in if you died. It seems looking from the outside that you are the only one in your family who is taking this as the crisis it is, and that's just wrong.

    Tell your brother that you need him to help you get help and that if you drop dead your mom will end up moving in with him and that you are probably going to drop dead. Or whatever it takes to make this not just your crisis. Maybe if you think no one will believe you about the dropping dead part you should tell them you are thinking of walking out and they will have an unplanned crisis on their hands as opposed to getting together and working out a way of dealing with the situation. All of which is to say I hope you aren't being too nice to the extended family, there is no reason ALL the cost in care hours should be on one person.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  3. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I heard it growing up, from just about every corner of academia: "John's very smart," "John's highly intelligent," "John is highly adaptive at learning math/science/languages," "John's test scores are off the charts," "John's voice is exceptional, his musical ability is on a level I would call gifted," "John is going to go places," "John has the mind of a doctor," "John is going to do great things. He has so much potential."

    The choices I made before I left school (I was already involved before I graduated high school), were supposed to be temporary. We had one scholarship available around the time I graduated, and it went to one of the wealthiest kids in the school.

    I was offered a significant opportunity from a well known aeronautical engineering school, but I had to turn it down. I had no money to go to Florida, and even if I did, I had not a dime for tuition.

    If I have one thing going for me, I'm excellent with money. My parents want me to succeed, but they're poor, so they have the poor mindset. To them, success will somehow happen magically. I call it lottery planning. They don't quite grasp that once I leave home, I am going to be very fucked. I haven't worked in 7 years, and the U.S. economy, while growing, is not conducive for people like me without a degree of any kind beyond a high school diploma.

    Assuming I didn't have to stay home? I would have moved out, and would have gone to our local community college and got my Associate of Science/Engineering degree, while working full time anywhere. As I said, I'm good with money, and can make it stretch quite far. I would have saved that money while still going to college, and then used that money, and the AA degree, to get into that university in Florida.

    From there, it would simply be a matter of choosing what particular field interested me. Aeronautical Engineering has always fascinated me. Such a choice would lead to careers like becoming a pilot, if I so chose, or digging into the Engineering side of it and working for companies like Boeing, NASA, GE Aircraft Engines, SpaceX, and so on.

    Universities are great places for experiencing newfound freedom, perhaps even finding someone to share it with. Who knows what could have been in that regard? I never had trouble meeting people, or making friends. At the very least, I'd sure as hell would have had sex.

    Or, I could have been homeless, unemployed, and single.

    The point is that I would have had the freedom to guide my life where I wanted it to go, for good or for bad. In this, where I am now, there is no freedom.

    The nursing home will not happen. My father has already said as much, and my mother would die if she went in. That's not a worst case scenario. What I mean is she would absolutely, without question, lose the will to live. This isn't my casting personal opinion on her mood, it's exactly what would happen, because not only has she said as much, but that any time someone even mentions the notion of a nursing home, she gets terrified and goes into an anxiety attack.

    I am, and it is wrong, but the family does not care. I have poured out everything to them, and it has fallen on deaf ears. They do not care. They say they care, they offer help, I ask for it, they retract it over some excuse or another, so I know they do not care.

    It shouldn't, but it does. I'm the only one, and it's because I know that if I stop, she has no hope. Believe me, it's no sense of self delusion. I don't want to be here at all, but I am, and there's nothing I can do about it except to continue onward.

    My brother has his family, and he works all of the time. I also watch his kids a number of times a month. He has an out, and that's it.

    I fall between every crack in our system. I mean, it was bound to happen to somebody, and I guess I'm the somebody it happened to. As for familial pride, I don't have that anymore. My hope is that someday, I can get away and never return. I regret being born, I regret fighting for my life in that incubator, I regret knowing them. I don't want to be associated with any of them, I don't want to have to deal with any of them, I just want to go far away, change my name, and do something with what life I have left.
     
  4. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So if you did leave, maybe give them one week notice, what would they do? What would your brother do? I'm sorry but if you watch his kids a few days a month and he or his wife can't watch your own mom for a few days a month he is an asshole at worst or an unthinking selfish person at best. So he is busy, and you're NOT? Everyone is fucking busy, that's life.

    Would they panic and beg you not to leave?
     
  5. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They are both under considerable stress themselves, so Mom would probably have a heart attack, which would likely kill her. Dad wouldn't know what to do, as he is laid off at the moment, and I manage all of the bills. My brother would be very upset, and would be very angry with me, and I likely wouldn't see my niece and nephew until many years later.

    I would also be breaking a word I gave many years ago, one that promised my mother that I wouldn't abandon her when she needed me the most. That need continues. I do not break my word. It's all I have.

    The rest of the family would probably work to put mom in a nursing home so she wouldn't have to stay with any of them, assuming she survived the news, of course.
     
  6. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I feel I must re-emphasize the positives of nursing homes for the person in care. NO ONE ever wants to go in one and families often see this as a failure or a terrible thing before the person goes in and, once it has happened, as a positive. You would not be abandoning your mother to put her in care, you would be getting her broader care than a single person can give. If you are trapped at home with no options it seems your mother is as well.

    Personally I think you should experimentally float the idea to your brother as to your impending death or checking out in some big way and see what the response is. I bet if it was your mom on his doorstep he'd be calling up his church and asking for help.

    I am sorry your family are such assholes. I know if someone needed 24 hour care in my family we would have a family meeting, draw up a roster to relieve the prime carer on a weekly basis and also fall over ourselves to support the prime carer and make sure they had a life and felt cared for by the rest of us.

    What does your brother say about you having no life and doing all the care? Maybe he needs to ask your extended family for help too, not just you. A united front presenting the crisis. They may find it easy to ignore you but what if it's your brother asking as well?
     
  7. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's really out of my hands, as my dad would be the one to make the decision, but I'm not kidding when I say she'd likely have a heart attack before ever being admitted.

    I don't even play around with the notion. Even floating the idea would get back to mom, and holy shit, things would go from bad to worse. I made a promise never to admit her to one, again, I don't break those promises. The only way I would do it is if she wanted to do so.

    Wow. Seriously, wow. Would you like to trade families?

    He feels bad for me, and sorry he left home instead of taking over for me and helping out, but that's the extent of it. In fairness to him, he has also asked for help for mom from our extended family, and they like him a lot better than they do me. Still, they had nothing but excuses for him, too. Our family's damned near worthless, if you're wondering. They're all about "we'll help!" and then disappear when it's time to work.

    On the upside, and there is a very, very faint upside, my dad wants to be more involved. So I am going to start training him on how I do things. Mom is afraid, because dad's not what you'd call the most gentle caregiver (he's really bad at it), but I explained to mom that if something happened to me, she would be up shit creek without a paddle, and that my health is deteriorating.

    I got her to agree to that, so it's a teeny tiny babystep, but that's how every journey begins.
     
  8. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If your dad could do two days a week care and you could get a job wouldn't that be a huge thing? I am flabbergasted that with all these relatives you are unable to get even 2 days off from being a carer. Hopefully your mom can understand that, it's not all about you dropping dead but it's about you NOT dropping dead and for that you need a couple days off. Remember when you're teaching someone you have to lower your standards, it might not be the way you would do it but if it gets the job done it will have to do. And yeah I think if you let your mom know that your dad needs training because you might not always be here that's a start.

    I'm glad to hear your brother has asked for help from the family, maybe you can get him to ask for help from his church as well, or whoever he would turn to if it was his crisis and not just yours. Asking for two days off a week is really VERY little. Does your brother realize right now how serious this is for you and what level of breakdown you are at physically and emotionally? Frankly he should be scared to death that you are going to have your own medical crisis and then your mom's entire medical needs will fall on him. He should be wanting this not to happen, and to help you so it doesn't.
     
  9. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It would be nothing short of incredible.

    Yeah, my earnestness in explaining what was going on with my own health was enough to convince her to give it a try. She really does care about me very much, and so does my dad, they're just really bad at handling bad situations. I've done it all of my life, so it's second nature to me.

    Once I told her, flat out, that I could drop at any moment and she would be screwed, she was willing to try another way of doing things. We had discussed such things before, many times, but this time, combined with what she could see as increasing physical signs (like I said, I shake all over now, to the point where it's noticeable), was enough to get her to budge.

    This is how I've seen it for a long time, but these people are only now coming around to it. I mean, I'm glad it's starting to happen, but Jesus. You know? My hope now is that it isn't too late.
     
  10. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nope but if you married/partnered into my family you would be absorbed into our large and glorious argumentative geekiness and become one.of.us. Unless of course you were an asshole in which case we would still be nice to you but talk about you behind your back.
     
  11. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm nice and my family talks behind my back anyway! :lol:

    Seriously, they're that type; you know, the one who needs you for something, smiles while you're taking care of the problem, and then when you're gone starts vicious rumors about you? That's my extended family.

    My brother even got tired of it. We have polar opposite views on so many things, but we generally get along, but our extended family would talk to him and not me (they see me as "weird", which I am gloriously weird), and he finally got fed up with it and told them not to send their gossip about me his way.
     
  12. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's not too late. But don't give up on imploring and explaining to all of them what is going on with you and stating over and over very clearly what you need, whether it's two days off a week or whatever. As soon as you stop talking about it they will probably stop thinking about it. That's an assumption on my part but I am guessing it's not the same for them as it is for you, as in if someone told you on this BBS they were having a medical crisis you would think about it and ask after them from time to time. It sounds like they have spent so long with you just being the person who does these things that you are invisible. So unfortunately you have to be very visible in your own crisis to them and you will probably get flak for it but be strong, don't give up! It's easier to think "okay, that was a lot of EXTRA stress.." (the flak) and to just shut up, but that has no long range positives to it.

    If your brother doesn't hear from you for a week that you are seriously feeling like total shit then he probably thinks you are having a good week.

    btw J. thank you for replying to my posts, I worry about being bossy in this discussion, intruding where I have no place, making you feel bad on any level. I am replying to you because I do care and I would like to see your life improved. If I lived in your state I would offer you concrete help, not that this is any worth to you to read, but I have to think there are other people out there who would do the same who can.
     
  13. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, that sounds about right. "Out of sight, out of mind" is a very big thing in our family. That's why my family "accepted" that my mom will never walk again (I still do not accept that), because they don't see her, so they don't really think about it. It was a simple decision for them.

    I also tend to be very quiet. I keep to myself when I'm not busy taking care of what she needs. I internalize almost everything. She's warned me about that before, so has my dad, but I've done it for so long that being vocal is a foreign concept to me. I never feel like my problems are worthy enough to be vocalized. I don't know where it came from, because my parents will tell you every little thing on their mind, if you'll sit and listen.

    You're not intruding. I've opened up my life here. It's a part of that engineering mindset I have. There's a problem, I want to fix it, so we have to open up and look inside, see if we can't find the problem and resolve it so everything gets to running smoothly again.

    I also appreciate that you care. So many of you here do care, and that means a lot to me. More than you probably know. *hugs*
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think making you the target of their gossip and focussing on you being different to them and "weird" is a way for them to dismiss you and probably by extension your mom's problems. Oh that part of the family, they're in that weird basket, rolls eyes. That way they don't have to see you as a real person with needs.
     
  15. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Are you sure you don't want to trade families? :ouch:
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I also rarely if ever vocalize my problems. Some of this comes from being an introvert and having had very self absorbed parents, and later in life a tendency to have friends who were also very self absorbed and for whom the whole friendship was about them telling me about their problems. I just got used to there being no real venue for talking about myself, my role was the listener, and so that's normal for me. I feel very weird if I verbalize things to friends now and, because of my tendency to pick self absorbed friends, it hasn't worked when I've done it :lol:

    teacake: "this terrible thing has happened"
    old friend: "OMG! THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, REMEMBER, 15 YEARS AGO?!"

    Of course I remember, you have been talking about it for that entire time and that's why I told you about what happened.. but the whole conversation is now only about your event 15 years ago.

    That's not even an exaggeration, that actually occurred word for word.

    Anyway, I digress, I have made an anecdote out of some of that shit because what are ya gonna do.

    Tell your family about your medical problems, verbalize verbalize verbalize. But don't tell them about anything they can hurt you with, any emotional things that you think might get twisted or misunderstood. People find it easier to hear about actual physical difficulties anyway.
     
  17. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    J., what everyone else said. Talk. And it's not too late for you. I chose to take care of family as well, but I also kept watch for something as I helped my family. This fall, though, I'm taking a big step. I've got a new job after waiting for so long. It's actually thanks in part to my nieces that I had the opportunity. Keep fighting and you will unbind the chains that hold you.
     
  18. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, I'm only reading this thread now, start to finish, in one sitting, and I've got some thoughts.

    Brie, shipmate, thank you for your posts and for starting the thread. I've been posting here for something like fifteen years now, and I can honestly say I don't remember reading as raw and honest and deep and supportive thread as this before. I'm very sorry some dirtbag shipmates bullied you, and I commend you on your strength in terms of seeking treatment and making the most of a difficult situation. I had some rough goings in my first command too, and met with a mental health doctor also at one point, during the one period in my life so far in which I really was seriously depressed, and I was able to make it through that storm... and now I'm looking forward to a free Master's Degree thanks to the Post-9/11 GI Bill. So, stay strong; this will get better for you, I'm sure of it. :bolian:

    Janeway's Girl, you are not alone, and wherever you may be, I'm sure that there's someone you can find for emotional support and acceptance of your nature. Most of my current closest friends are queer, and I wouldn't deserve a smidgen of their friendship and the good times we share if I didn't have complete and unconditional respect for their inner natures, so it burns me to read you expressing shame for who you are. Please try to reach out to compassionate others, strangers if necessary, for your own sake, but also because I'm asking you too if that helps at all.

    teacake, thank you very much for all your posts for our friend J. Just hanging out elsewhere on the boards, I had no idea things had devolved so much recently. J., this may seem like cold comfort, but I enjoy each and every post of yours I come across, even when we disagree on the ethics of low-orbit "space" tourism, and I know that many others feel the same way.

    That said, as teacake has gently (yet honestly) discussed, as you know, your situation is unsustainable and intolerable. Have you tried getting in touch with any local pastors (ideally of your lame-ass family members' congregations) for help? Maybe an authority figure telling them to help might help? Also, are there any local service organizations (Scouting troops, military communities) that could help in any way, if only to give you a few hours off for some fresh air and peace and quiet?

    You have so much to offer your community, country, and world. I'm sure you'd make a great (paid, licensed) nurse, for instance, and it's never too late to get that kind of formal training and certification. This may be out of line to say, but your family - your parents included - are being unacceptably selfish in wearing you down and keeping you from letting you shine your light to the degree that they do, and you'd be better off without them. They've relied on you more than enough, and if moving to a nursing home would indeed kill them quickly, that might well be best for everyone, including yourself and all the more deserving people out there you could absolutely still help (for pay) and support and love (not for pay) included.

    Your parents will, after all, die someday, ideally long before you do, and neither you nor I believe there'll be any rewards or punishments when everyone now alive has died out for what we do in our time here, so this degree of self-sacrifice is a waste, plain and simple. Courage, hombre, courage!
     
  19. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    ^Gaith... with all due respect, taking care of your family can be rewarding. You're being too cold here. I know, in some respects, where J. is. Caregiving is rewarding and also draining. So don't demean him for doing it. I have a feeling that's not your intention.
    J., you've done what was needed. And it's okay for you to unlock your chains. I've been unlocking mine and it's been a tough journey. I'm here as you've been here for me. :)
     
  20. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hugs to teacake, Gaith, and Peach. Thank you all for the thoughtful insight, and the support. You have given me a lot to consider.

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