"Agent Carter" season one discussion and spoilers

[ITL]

Oh, I should think so. Sir Pat is from Yorkshire, but he certainly doesn't have a Yorkshire accent. He does like to delve into the dialect from time to time, though.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Now I'm curious where Crikey O'Rielly would factor into this. Would that be a legitimate middle-class swear of the time, or perhaps a hint of working-class origins?

 

[Reverend]

IIRC "Crikey" is a euphemism for "Christ". For obvious reasons I'm assuming the O'Rielly part is Irish in origin, probably 18th or 19th century. Basically it's a way of exclaiming "Jesus Christ!" Without actually saying.

Generally speaking working class swearing is more coarse, but it depends on the company, context and the type of person saying it. That said, swearing isn't really class specific, but the fact that she'd use a polite euphemism rather than something more blunt, says she's more used to polite company even under duress. That to me says Grammar School or Nuns with wooden rulers. Or both.

The thing that strikes me about a lot of British actors is how much their speech patterns resemble each other -- not just the accent, but the cadence and delivery, the rhythms and intonations and pitch changes as they speak. It's like they're doing impressions of each other -- or all doing impressions of the same person. Sir Patrick Stewart and Michael York, for example, have astonishingly similar deliveries. I've often wondered if there's some specialized training for British stage actors that drills them into a particular way of speaking and delivering lines, even beyond just mastering Received Pronunciation.

There is. It's called going to the Royal Shakespeare Company.

 

[DWF]

The thing that alot of people are missing, is that if they cast a family member for Carter it'll bea well known actor or actress, who's accent probably won't match Atwell's. They'll have to cast either a well known actor for promotional purposes or anybody who's available at the time. This was how Carolyn Seymour was cast as Amanda Pays' mother on the '90 Flash series. So I'm sorry but any talk about Carter's accent is amoot one depending on their casting choices.

 

[Christopher]

(To Reverend) Except Michael York was never in the RSC, as far as I can tell. And that's not the point. Learning acting is one thing; learning to use a specific speech cadence and manner of delivery is another thing altogether.

 

[The Old Mixer]

That said, swearing isn't really class specific, but the fact that she'd use a polite euphemism rather than something more blunt, says she's more used to polite company even under duress. That to me says Grammar School or Nuns with wooden rulers. Or both.

Or maybe it just says that her show airs on a major network at 9 p.m. EST in the U.S.

 

[Reverend]

That said, swearing isn't really class specific, but the fact that she'd use a polite euphemism rather than something more blunt, says she's more used to polite company even under duress. That to me says Grammar School or Nuns with wooden rulers. Or both.

Or maybe it just says that her show airs on a major network at 9 p.m. EST in the U.S.

Well sure, there's that.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Seriously, though, it did come off as being something of an "accent-slipping" moment as I recall.

 

[JD]

All this talk of accents reminds me of something I noticed a year or two back. Whenever British or Australian actors use an American accent, their voices are almost always deeper than when they use their normal accents. Apparently there's something about American accents that causes you to use a deeper voice.

 

[DWF]

All this talk of accents reminds me of something I noticed a year or two back. Whenever British or Australian actors use an American accent, their voices are almost always deeper than when they use their normal accents. Apparently there's something about American accents that causes you to use a deeper voice.

Anna Torv seems to have a naturally husky voice but Yvonnee Strzechowski has a softer American voice, but then Torv's real voice is a bit softer as well. Daniel Craig's American accent is a pretty good one, I've not David Tennant's American voice though. I think in the end it depends on the actor and how long they've been working oin the accent.

 

[Reverend]

Seriously, though, it did come off as being something of an "accent-slipping" moment as I recall.

Yeah, swearing in one's native tongue is a pretty common trope. In this case however her accent didn't change and if the best she could muster was "crikey O'Reilly" then all that's indicative of is a propper, well mannered upbringing, which of course just leads us right back to: middle class grammar school girl.

 

[Sci]

Someone could try asking Haley Atwell what her intention is on Twitter. She replies to fans a lot.

 

[theenglish]

Uh, Peggy is not upper class. Her accent and what I recall of her background is that of a decidedly middle class grammar school girl.

Accents don't deterime the classes, the Manchester born Michael Caine raised himself to high class status. Really outside of a dead grandmother we know very little about Carter's family. Since she as an officer during the war it's fairly certainly to guess that her family has connections.

Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about mate.
I know this may be difficult for a non-Brit to grasp, but Michael Caine is working class. The bank balance, the fame, even the knighthood, none of it can change that. It's not about where you are, it's about where you're from. It's not about how much money you have, it's about how much money your ancestors had. It's heritage and it's cultural. You can up or downgrade you standing in society, but it doesn't change your class.

In Britain in the 1940's, '50's and even into the 60's, your accent said everything about you. It said where you're from, what your background is and whether you were born into poverty, comfortably well off or with a silver spoon in every available orifice.

An accent can be a badge of pride or a mark of shame depending on which circles one aspired to. People would (and still do in some cases) try to suppress their accent if they don't want to let on they're from poverty. All those snooty English butlers you see in movie and TV? Most of them are put on. For the knobs, it's not the done thing to have a servant with a common accent in front of guests. Remember how Parker in Thunderbirds would have the snooty accent when addressing Lady Penelope, but would slip into cockney the second he spoke to one of his old mates? True to life, believe it or not.

To give you an idea on the level of stigma that could be attached to it; Until the late 60's/early 70's you'd almost never expect to hear a regional accent on TV or radio outside of a broad caricature.

As for her Rank: that's something she would have earned through her education and proven aptitude. The most educated woman in those days (and mostly these days too if I'm honest) are middle class woman. Working class women generally had to work young and couldn't afford to go to school and the upper class for the most part didn't bother because they didn't have to.

For further reading on the British class system, I refer you to The Two Ronnies.

Whatever background they decide to make up for Peggy after the fact, Hayley Atwell is quite clearly playing her as a very middle class, grammar school girl.
And yes, Jarvis is almost certainly middle class too.

Nice input on the accents. I wonder if the writers put as much thought into as you have--if so well done indeed.

Of course, since the sixties any British accent at all means that you come from a country whose world empire has faded and has yet to come to terms with its growing insignificance to the global community.

I often watch all the alien invasions on Doctor Who and wonder if the alien intel that they use to decide where to invade Earth is actually decades or centuries out of date.

 

[Christopher]

I often watch all the alien invasions on Doctor Who and wonder if the alien intel that they use to decide where to invade Earth is actually decades or centuries out of date.

In the Doctor Who universe, Britain is still a globally important nation, having its own active space program in the '70s (or whenever the UNIT era happened) and pioneering many breakthrough technological advances. Perhaps partly because the Doctor has always hung around there so often, having more influence than he realized. Or maybe the Cardiff Rift was a factor in drawing alien interest to the British Isles, which became self-reinforcing as more and more aliens had more and more effect on the history of the region, left their artifacts lying around, etc.

(Also, in the Who universe, the President of the United States is called "the President of America." That one kind of annoys me.)

 

[Kemaiku]

Someone could try asking Haley Atwell what her intention is on Twitter. She replies to fans a lot.

She also famously tweeted "Peggy loves Angie" on there so she likes to give random/weird answers to things as well. Not sure how accurate they're going to be.

 

[Sci]

Of course, since the sixties any British accent at all means that you come from a country whose world empire has faded and has yet to come to terms with its growing insignificance to the global community.

True... but also irrelevant, because Agent Carter is set in 1946 America.

I often watch all the alien invasions on Doctor Who and wonder if the alien intel that they use to decide where to invade Earth is actually decades or centuries out of date.

Hmm. Of the alien invasions on modern Doctor Who I can think of...

Spoiler: DOCTOR WHO

Series One

"Aliens of London"/"World War Three:" The Slitheen assassinate Prime Minister Tony Blair and fake a crash-landing of an alien spacecraft in the River Thames (and destroy Big Ben in the process) in 2006 in order to put one of their own, who is impersonating a British M.P. named Joseph Green, into power as Acting Prime Minister. Once in power, the Slitheen then reveal to the world that an alien spacecraft is hovering above London in high orbit, and appeal to the United Nations to release the launch codes to the United Kingdom's nuclear weapons, so that they can then launch those weapons against other countries, provoking World War III and reducing Earth to radioactive slag. The Slitheen plan to sell off the slag at a profit.

This plan is a bit divergent from reality insofar as it seems to be set in a world where the U.N. have been given the authority to decide when one of their Member States gets to launch their nuclear weapons. But apart from that, it hinges on the Slitheen having apparently been able to infiltrate the British government but not those of any other nuclear-powered state circa the mid-aughts.

"Bad Wolf"/"The Parting of the Ways:" The Daleks invade Earth in the 100101st Century (or some such ridiculously huge number). No overt references to Great Britain as the primary target, although apparently the enduring influence of Britpop continues with the survival of Big Brother and The Weakest Link.

Series Two

"The Christmas Invasion:" The Sycorax are targeting the entire Earth, but it would seem that they're focusing their efforts on the United Kingdom because of having captured a U.K. space probe, and, IIRC, because they detected the presence of the TARDIS in London.

"Rise of the Cybermen"/"The Age of Steel:" Set in an alternate dimension where the Republic of Great Britain is apparently still a world power, or at the very least has produced massive technological advancements vis a vis Cybus Industries and their Cybermen. The Republic of Great Britain is apparently overthrown by anti-corporate forces later and replaced with a People's Republic of Great Britain.

"Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday:" The invading army of Cybus Cybermen are appearing all over the world, but their Cyber-Controllers appear concentrated in London because this is the location of the interdimensional doo-hickey that summons them, thanks to the Torchwood Institute (which explicitly wants to create a new British Empire). The Daleks are concentrated in London for the same reason.

Series Three:

"The Runaway Bride:" If I recall correctly, the Racnoss took advantage of advanced technology left over by the seemingly-defunct Torchwood Institute to try to revive her species. No geopolitical justification necessary.

"The Sound of Drums"/"Last of the Time Lords:" Great Britain has achieved greater prominence on the world stage due to the advanced technology used to create both a new Archangel global satellite system and the UNIT flying aircraft carrier Valiant -- technology provided by "Harold Saxon," aka the Master, who landed in 21st Century Great Britain because the hijacked TARDIS was prevented from traveling to any other time or location by the Doctor. "Saxon" then uses the Archangel network to get himself elected Prime Minister, announces first contact with the Toclafane. The United States intervenes and attempts to use their influence at the U.N. to put first contact under U.S. control, but the Toclafane assassinate the U.S. President-elect* and take over the world for the Master. Until the Doctor, Jack, and Martha undo it in a timey-whimey fashion, resulting in merely a dead U.S. President-elect and a dead British Prime Minister and Cabinet. (And miraculously, no war between the U.S. and U.K.)

(Side-note: UNIT vs SHIELD. Two fantastical security agencies with flying aircraft carriers whom the writers can't seem to decide if they work for an international agency or for the national government of the country in which the series was produced. Coincidence?!?!?! [Yes, coincidence. But amusing nonetheless.])

* "The Sound of Drums" can't seem to decide if Arther Coleman Winters is the President or President-elect of the U.S. He's referred to by other characters as the President, but introduces himself to the Toclafane as President-elect. My interpretation: I assume that Winters knows his title better than the other characters, who are all British. So I presume that Series Three must be set in November 2008. Winters won the 2008 U.S. Presidential Election and was massively popular, and used that popularity to strong-arm the outgoing President into letting Winters represent the U.S. at Toclafane first contact aboard the Valiant rather than the outgoing President. Whom I assume was George W. Bush, since nuWho likes to use real world leaders sometimes. Since Children of Earth depicts all of the world governments as participating in a massive conspiracy to feed 10% of the world's children to the 4-5-6 in the summer of 2009, I figure that the Vice President-elect became President on 20 January 2009, but that he would then have been impeached following the 4-5-6 Crisis. From there, I figure Barack Obama came to power some time before Christmas 2009 per "The End of Time, Part One."

Series Four

"Voyage of the Damned:" The S.S. Titanic almost crashes into London because, well, hell, why not? No real geopolitical need for that to be the target -- it's just a matter of Everything Happens in London. But the aliens don't actually care where they crash.

"The Sontaran Stratagem"/"The Poisoned Sky:" The Sontarans concentrate their actions on the U.K. because their human ally, who has installed the ATMOS system into many different cars, is working out of Britain. I believe they also detected the presence of the Doctor in London. No further justification needed.

"The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End:" The Dalek Invasion happens all across the planet and isn't really confined or centered around Great Britain. However, the Daleks are aware that the Doctor's allies are primarily in the U.K., and so go to great pains to exterminate Harriet Jones, Former Prime Minister, and the Torchwood team in Cardiff.

Torchwood: Children of Earth: U.K. based because the 4-5-6 had dealt with the Brits in the 1960s. We don't know why they did this. However, it may have been arbitrary, or the U.K.'s relative international weakness may itself have been the reason--easier to manipulate a government that feels weak. In any event, the 2013-era U.K. government caved to the U.S. when it decided to take over British operations after the 4-5-6 killed everyone in Thames House.

Series Five:

"The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang:" The Pandorica Alliance create the titular device in the U.K. primarily because they know the Doctor is based there. No real "invasion" happens, though.

Series Six

"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon:" The Silence are based everywhere, but most of the action takes place in America.

"Closing Time:" The Cybermen ship just crashed in Croydon. No real explanation required beyond that. Everything Happens in Britain trope but not contingent on the aliens evaluating the human geopolitical situation.

"The Wedding of River Song:" The alternate timeline mash-up features events in London and Egypt. No real geopolitical worries -- this is a timeline in which Winston Churchill is the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, based out of London, riding in on a personal mastodon, while fighting the Wars of the Roses, in the year 2011.

Series Seven

"The Power of Three:" The cubes appear all over the world. Action primarily centers around the Doctor in London. Aliens are defeated in Earth orbit. No real geopolitical concerns.

"The Bells of Saint John:" Built-in explanation: The evil corporation that's sucking in people's brains were working for the Great Intelligence, who is U.K.-based after its origins in 19th Century London in "The Snowmen."

"The Day of the Doctor:" The Zygons apparently knew about the Undergallery, and were trying to impersonate Elizabeth I so that her orders to create the Undergallery would still be in effect in 2013 Britain, thus keeping their time-capsule/paintings safe long enough for Humans to have decent tech. From there, they apparently knew about UNIT's 2013-era Black Archive and planned to use it to conquer Earth. No geopolitical explanation required.

Series Eight -- I haven't seen it yet.

So all in all, most of the alien incursions are explained by some plot-related trope, rather than being contingent upon the U.K.'s role in international politics. They certainly use the Everything Happens in Britain trope, but, hey, Marvel uses the Everything Happens in New York trope, so why can't the Brits have their version of it too?

I often watch all the alien invasions on Doctor Who and wonder if the alien intel that they use to decide where to invade Earth is actually decades or centuries out of date.

In the Doctor Who universe, Britain is still a globally important nation, having its own active space program in the '70s (or whenever the UNIT era happened) and pioneering many breakthrough technological advances. Perhaps partly because the Doctor has always hung around there so often, having more influence than he realized. Or maybe the Cardiff Rift was a factor in drawing alien interest to the British Isles, which became self-reinforcing as more and more aliens had more and more effect on the history of the region, left their artifacts lying around, etc.

That does seem to be part of the reason -- things like the Black Archive, Torchwood technology, etc.

(Also, in the Who universe, the President of the United States is called "the President of America." That one kind of annoys me.)

Eh, is it any worse than calling someone the President of Russia, or the Prime Minister of Great Britain? Sometimes people aren't formal with their language.

Someone could try asking Haley Atwell what her intention is on Twitter. She replies to fans a lot.

She also famously tweeted "Peggy loves Angie" on there so she likes to give random/weird answers to things as well. Not sure how accurate they're going to be.

I was operating on the assumption we'd be able to distinguish an earnest answer from a facetious answer.

 

[DWF]

Niether Russia nor Great Britain are continents though. And Coleman as the president-elect made no sense for that matter. And Marvel hasn't set everything in New York for decades.

 

[Sci]

Niether Russia nor Great Britain are continents though.

Yeah, well, the inhabitants of the United States have long since laid claim to the use of the word "America" to describe their country, and we got dibs on it because we were the first people in North or South America to declare independence. Americans are not about to start calling themselves something else, and they're not about to start referring to their country as something other than America (except when they use "United States" or related terms).

And Coleman as the president-elect made no sense for that matter.

No, it didn't. I think Russell T. Davies just heard the phrase and didn't understand that it meant "person who has been elected president but who has not yet taken office." But it's what Winters calls himself, so I tried to find a scenario to justify it. A popular president-elect deciding to use his informal political power to persuade/strong-arm an outgoing (and likely very unpopular) president into letting him represent the U.S. at First Contact seemed the best explanation.

Alternately, you can just go with, "He was President and ignore the 'elect' part."

(RTD's script for "The End of Time, Part One" also indicates that he was under the impression that the U.S. President is protected by the FBI rather than the U.S. Secret Service.)

And Marvel hasn't set everything in New York for decades.

This is pedantic. "Everything Happens in [Wherever]" is a trope that describes a tendency to set works of fiction in a particular location familiar to audiences and/or artists at a disproportionate rate. It doesn't have to be universal for its point to be valid.

And between Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Dr. Strange, the Avengers, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and all their related characters, it's pretty clear that Marvel is still very NYC-centric.

 

[DWF]

Niether Russia nor Great Britain are continents though.

Yeah, well, the inhabitants of the United States have long since laid claim to the use of the word "America" to describe their country, and we got dibs on it because we were the first people in North or South America to declare independence. Americans are not about to start calling themselves something else, and they're not about to start referring to their country as something other than America (except when they use "United States" or related terms).

And Coleman as the president-elect made no sense for that matter.

No, it didn't. I think Russell T. Davies just heard the phrase and didn't understand that it meant "person who has been elected president but who has not yet taken office." But it's what Winters calls himself, so I tried to find a scenario to justify it. A popular president-elect deciding to use his informal political power to persuade/strong-arm an outgoing (and likely very unpopular) president into letting him represent the U.S. at First Contact seemed the best explanation.

Alternately, you can just go with, "He was President and ignore the 'elect' part."

(RTD's script for "The End of Time, Part One" also indicates that he was under the impression that the U.S. President is protected by the FBI rather than the U.S. Secret Service.)

And Marvel hasn't set everything in New York for decades.

This is pedantic. "Everything Happens in [Wherever]" is a trope that describes a tendency to set works of fiction in a particular location familiar to audiences and/or artists at a disproportionate rate. It doesn't have to be universal for its point to be valid.

And between Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Dr. Strange, the Avengers, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and all their related characters, it's pretty clear that Marvel is still very NYC-centric.

You're really not in a position to say what RTD was thinking when he put a president-elect inthe middle of the action, it still makes no sense. And it's kind of funny that in Stan Lee's cameo at the end of the Avengers that he laughs at the concept of superheroes in New York. Split between Fox, Sony and Disney the MCU movies for the most part have been set outside of New York in many ways the MCU have gone out of their not to go to New York. Technically of course the X-Men are also set in New York. By setting the characters in New York fixed the city problems being mentioned in the Suicide Squad movie thread.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Niether Russia nor Great Britain are continents though.

Yeah, well, the inhabitants of the United States have long since laid claim to the use of the word "America" to describe their country, and we got dibs on it because we were the first people in North or South America to declare independence.

Also, it's the actual name of the country: United States of America. So it can be shortened to United States, the States, America, USA or US.