"Agent Carter" season one discussion and spoilers

[DWF]

Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about mate.
I know this may be difficult for a non-Brit to grasp, but Michael Caine is working class. The bank balance, the fame, even the knighthood, none of it can change that. It's not about where you are, it's about where you're from. It's not about how much money you have, it's about how much money your ancestors had. It's heritage and it's cultural. You can up or downgrade you standing in society, but it doesn't change your class.

In Britain in the 1940's, '50's and even into the 60's, your accent said everything about you. It said where you're from, what your background is and whether you were born into poverty, comfortably well off or with a silver spoon in every available orifice.

An accent can be a badge of pride or a mark of shame depending on which circles one aspired to. People would (and still do in some cases) try to suppress their accent if they don't want to let on they're from poverty. All those snooty English butlers you see in movie and TV? Most of them are put on. For the knobs, it's not the done thing to have a servant with a common accent in front of guests. Remember how Parker in Thunderbirds would have the snooty accent when addressing Lady Penelope, but would slip into cockney the second he spoke to one of his old mates? True to life, believe it or not.

To give you an idea on the level of stigma that could be attached to it; Until the late 60's/early 70's you'd almost never expect to hear a regional accent on TV or radio outside of a broad caricature.

As for her Rank: that's something she would have earned through her education and proven aptitude. The most educated woman in those days (and mostly these days too if I'm honest) are middle class woman. Working class women generally had to work young and couldn't afford to go to school and the upper class for the most part didn't bother because they didn't have to.

For further reading on the British class system, I refer you to The Two Ronnies.

Whatever background they decide to make up for Peggy after the fact, Hayley Atwell is quite clearly playing her as a very middle class, grammar school girl.
And yes, Jarvis is almost certainly middle class too.

Yeah like a sitcom is a great place to understand anything the country it's filmed in. Peggy to me is too polished to be a middle class girl, if anything she's the black sheep of a high class familty. But I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with fr her.

You did notice that Reverend's from the UK right? So he might be going on more than a sitcom ( mentioned in jest) and know more than someone from Columbus, Ohio.

Yeah let's keep this about Peggy Carter though.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah like a sitcom is a great place to understand anything the country it's filmed in.

I have no idea what you think this sentence means. Once more with grammar please?

Peggy to me is too polished to be a middle class girl, if anything she's the black sheep of a high class familty. But I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with fr her.

It doesn't matter what Peggy is to you, because you are objectively incorrect. It's quite apparent you really don't understand the difference between middle class received pronunciation and an upper class accent. The upper class are basically the aristocracy, or the remnants thereof. Peggy is quite clearly *not* an aristocrat. Again, it's not about money or education, it's about breeding and heritage. even ignoring the accent--which would be categorically stupid since it informs the whole character as I've already illustrated at length--if she were upper class, someone like Jarvis would NEVER EVER address her as "Miss Carter", I'd be "Lady Carter". This is how a class system works, no?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah like a sitcom is a great place to understand anything the country it's filmed in. Peggy to me is too polished to be a middle class girl, if anything she's the black sheep of a high class familty. But I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with fr her.

You did notice that Reverend's from the UK right? So he might be going on more than a sitcom ( mentioned in jest) and know more than someone from Columbus, Ohio.

Yeah let's keep this about Peggy Carter though.

Did we stop at some point?

 

[DWF]

Yeah like a sitcom is a great place to understand anything the country it's filmed in.

I have no idea what you think this sentence means. Once more with grammar please?

Peggy to me is too polished to be a middle class girl, if anything she's the black sheep of a high class familty. But I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with fr her.

It doesn't matter what Peggy is to you, because you are objectively incorrect. It's quite apparent you really don't understand the difference between middle class received pronunciation and an upper class accent. The upper class are basically the aristocracy, or the remnants thereof. Peggy is quite clearly *not* an aristocrat. Again, it's not about money or education, it's about breeding and heritage. even ignoring the accent--which would be categorically stupid since it informs the whole character as I've already illustrated at length--if she were upper class, someone like Jarvis would NEVER EVER address her as "Miss Carter", I'd be "Lady Carter". This is how a class system works, no?

Why can't you wait and see what they decide to do with Carter's history before making any judgement calls about me?

And as for how Jarvis addresses her, given that Doctor Who had a president-elect flying around on Ari Force One and representing the United States, you shold yet again not judge these things on a TV show.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah like a sitcom is a great place to understand anything the country it's filmed in.

I have no idea what you think this sentence means. Once more with grammar please?

Peggy to me is too polished to be a middle class girl, if anything she's the black sheep of a high class familty. But I'm willing to wait and see what they come up with fr her.

It doesn't matter what Peggy is to you, because you are objectively incorrect. It's quite apparent you really don't understand the difference between middle class received pronunciation and an upper class accent. The upper class are basically the aristocracy, or the remnants thereof. Peggy is quite clearly *not* an aristocrat. Again, it's not about money or education, it's about breeding and heritage. even ignoring the accent--which would be categorically stupid since it informs the whole character as I've already illustrated at length--if she were upper class, someone like Jarvis would NEVER EVER address her as "Miss Carter", I'd be "Lady Carter". This is how a class system works, no?

Why can't you wait and see what they decide to do with Carter's history before making any judgement calls about me?

And as for how Jarvis addresses her, given that Doctor Who had a president-elect flying around on Ari Force One and representing the United States, you shold yet again not judge these things on a TV show.

I think all he's doing is calling your opinion uninformed. It's not personal.

 

[DWF]

As much as I love what Hayley Atwell's done with Peggy, there's plenty of things that don't quite add up about her. Where'd she get the knockout lipstick from and why doesn't affect her while she's wearing it? . She knows how to fire all kinds of firearms, decypers one off Russian messages. Plus she knows how to fight. And it's fairly obvious why they want to move the show to LA, Carter works best when she's under estamated and really she wouldn't stick taking lunch orders in New York anymore.

 

[Reverend]

Why can't you wait and see what they decide to do with Carter's history before making any judgement calls about me?

Because you're making claims based on feelings and uninformed opinions on a subject of which you are quite blatantly ignorant. It's not a matter of judgement, it's a matter of fact.

I've been polite up until this point, giving you ample opportunity to extract your foot from the deep recesses of your trachea, but this is where I must point out that as a general rule, lecturing someone on their own culture is considered to quite possibly be one of the top 10 most condescending and offensive things one can do in an otherwise civil discussion.

Short version: you're wrong.

And as for how Jarvis addresses her, given that Doctor Who had a president-elect flying around on Ari Force One and representing the United States, you shold yet again not judge these things on a TV show.

That would be a classic straw-man argument if it weren't entirely nonsensical. What the bloody hell does an episode of Doctor Who have to do with anything?

 

[DWF]

Why can't you wait and see what they decide to do with Carter's history before making any judgement calls about me?

Because you're making claims based on feelings and uninformed opinions on a subject of which you are quite blatantly ignorant. It's not a matter of judgement, it's a matter of fact.

I've been polite up until this point, giving you ample opportunity to extract your foot from the deep recesses of your trachea, but this is where I must point out that as a general rule, lecturing someone on their own culture is considered to quite possibly be one of the top 10 most condescending and offensive things one can do in an otherwise civil discussion.

Short version: you're wrong.

And as for how Jarvis addresses her, given that Doctor Who had a president-elect flying around on Ari Force One and representing the United States, you shold yet again not judge these things on a TV show.

That would be a classic straw-man argument if it weren't entirely nonsensical. What the bloody hell does an episode of Doctor Who have to do with anything?

Opinions are niether right nor wrong and really it's a game of wait and see what if anything they intend to do about Carter's past and her family. Until then it's a useless argument, it's really all up to the show's writers not anybody on the internet. So really let's leave it to them to come out with her story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Opinions are niether right nor wrong and really it's a game of wait and see what if anything they intend to do about Carter's past and her family. Until then it's a useless argument, it's really all up to the show's writers not anybody on the internet. So really let's leave it to them to come out with her story.

Since the topic was classism in British society and what Atwell's accent tells us about Peggy Carter's background there is a right and wrong. An uniformed opinion is usually wrong

 

[DWF]

Opinions are niether right nor wrong and really it's a game of wait and see what if anything they intend to do about Carter's past and her family. Until then it's a useless argument, it's really all up to the show's writers not anybody on the internet. So really let's leave it to them to come out with her story.

Since the topic was classism in British society and what Atwell's accent tells us about Peggy Carter's background there is a right and wrong. An uniformed opinion is usually wrong

Atwell's father is a native American Indian and yes her parents were divorced when she was two but her real accent has very little to do with Carter's backstory. Howard Stark is an American yet in the first season he was played Brit. real accents really don't come into play here. Dottie's accent was all wrong for somebody who just got the bus from Kansas, but then few people noticed that, I didn't trust her from the start.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Opinions are niether right nor wrong and really it's a game of wait and see what if anything they intend to do about Carter's past and her family. Until then it's a useless argument, it's really all up to the show's writers not anybody on the internet. So really let's leave it to them to come out with her story.

Since the topic was classism in British society and what Atwell's accent tells us about Peggy Carter's background there is a right and wrong. An uniformed opinion is usually wrong

Atwell's father is a native American Indian and yes her parents were divorced when she was two but her real accent has very little to do with Carter's backstory. Howard Stark is an American yet in the first season he was played Brit. real accents really don't come into play here. Dottie's accent was all wrong for somebody who just got the bus from Kansas, but then few people noticed that, I didn't trust her from the start.

It's not really about the accent Atwell (or anyone else uses on the show), but about your lack of knowledge about the class system in Britain and what an accent means there. Real world stuff.

 

[Sci]

DWF, you've displayed quite a bit of ignorance about how the pre-WW2 British class system worked. Just accept that and let it go.

I do think we ought to consider the possibility, however, that Peggy's accent may not be an accurate indicator of her class heritage. Reverend has outlined what I think is the most plausible hypothesis -- that Peggy came from a middle-class family. However, Peggy being the most incredibly competent of the incredibly competent, and realism/naturalism being occasionally defied in the MCU, I think it is worth considering the possibility that Peggy could either be from extremely poor or extremely wealthy families, and that she has adopted this middle-class received pronunciation accent to disguise her class origins.

Likely? No. But possible, if we accept that the MCU is not always realistic.

 

[Reverend]

Opinions are niether right nor wrong and really it's a game of wait and see what if anything they intend to do about Carter's past and her family. Until then it's a useless argument, it's really all up to the show's writers not anybody on the internet. So really let's leave it to them to come out with her story.

Since the topic was classism in British society and what Atwell's accent tells us about Peggy Carter's background there is a right and wrong. An uniformed opinion is usually wrong

Atwell's father is a native American Indian and yes her parents were divorced when she was two but her real accent has very little to do with Carter's backstory. Howard Stark is an American yet in the first season he was played Brit. real accents really don't come into play here. Dottie's accent was all wrong for somebody who just got the bus from Kansas, but then few people noticed that, I didn't trust her from the start.

We're not discussing Dottie's accent. Aside from being played by a different actress and therefore not relevant, she's probably never even been to Kansas what with the whole Soviet infiltrator thing.

Neither is Atwell's parentage for that matter. She was raised British, she knows the difference between an upper, middle and working class accent just the same as I do and being an actress, has clearly made a conscious choice to play Peggy as middle class. Genetics doesn't come into it.

You keep failing to address any counter argument presented thus far and have done nothing but dodge, weave and bring up a small army of straw men arguments and non sequiturs. I think it's time to accept that you're simply too ill informed to have an intelligent opinion on the subject.

DWF, you've displayed quite a bit of ignorance about how the pre-WW2 British class system worked. Just accept that and let it go.

I do think we ought to consider the possibility, however, that Peggy's accent may not be an accurate indicator of her class heritage. Reverend has outlined what I think is the most plausible hypothesis -- that Peggy came from a middle-class family. However, Peggy being the most incredibly competent of the incredibly competent, and realism/naturalism being occasionally defied in the MCU, I think it is worth considering the possibility that Peggy could either be from extremely poor or extremely wealthy families, and that she has adopted this middle-class received pronunciation accent to disguise her class origins.

Likely? No. But possible, if we accept that the MCU is not always realistic.

Oh sure, they may end up making up a totally different background for her, but honestly I doubt it. It's not just Atwell's acting choices, everything about the character screams middle class. The only other possibility is that she's working class, which honestly would only make her all the more impressive. She would have had to fight and claw her way up to get a proper education in a time when such girls generally left school to work around age 12, suppress her regional accent, put on middle class airs to say nothing of penetrating the ingrained classism of the British military. That last part would be nothing short of miraculous since even today, the MOD is still very much a bastion of the old rigid class structure.

Upper class though? Nah. Totally different animal. It'd be like someone who speaks, acts and looks like Daryl from 'The Walking Dead' turning out to be a Manhatten trust fund kid.

I appreciate that to yanks, "middle class" means something very different so it may be a little hard to accept, but it is what it is.

 

[DWF]

Since the topic was classism in British society and what Atwell's accent tells us about Peggy Carter's background there is a right and wrong. An uniformed opinion is usually wrong

Atwell's father is a native American Indian and yes her parents were divorced when she was two but her real accent has very little to do with Carter's backstory. Howard Stark is an American yet in the first season he was played Brit. real accents really don't come into play here. Dottie's accent was all wrong for somebody who just got the bus from Kansas, but then few people noticed that, I didn't trust her from the start.

We're not discussing Dottie's accent. Aside from being played by a different actress and therefore not relevant, she's probably never even been to Kansas what with the whole Soviet infiltrator thing.

Neither is Atwell's parentage for that matter. She was raised British, she knows the difference between an upper, middle and working class accent just the same as I do and being an actress, has clearly made a conscious choice to play Peggy as middle class. Genetics doesn't come into it.

You keep failing to address any counter argument presented thus far and have done nothing but dodge, weave and bring up a small army of straw men arguments and non sequiturs. I think it's time to accept that you're simply too ill informed to have an intelligent opinion on the subject.

Onthe subject of Carter's past I have repeatedly said you shoulw wait and see and yes I can have an opinion on it. But then let's wait and see what they come up with. You don't have any infomation about Carter's past to tell me differently. My opinion is that she's a black sheep member of a high class family and truely you and I won't know if I'm wrong until her backstory is revealed. That's not a dodge and I'm not saying your opinion is wrong it doesn't happend to be mine. Let's let the show be the judge of who's opinion is the better one.

 

[Reverend]

^I'm sorry but that just doesn't track. Upper class people don't slum it with the middle class. They slum it with the working class. It wouldn't make sense any other way. Not that I'd expect you to comprehend, it's pretty clear you're way out of your depth on this.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The only other possibility is that she's working class, which honestly would only make her all the more impressive. She would have had to fight and claw her way up to get a proper education in a time when such girls generally left school to work around age 12, suppress her regional accent, put on middle class airs to say nothing of penetrating the ingrained classism of the British military. That last part would be nothing short of miraculous since even today, the MOD is still very much a bastion of the old rigid class structure.

This would be an intriguing possibility...the sort of thing that might have gotten the attention of an espionage agency....

 

[Reverend]

The only other possibility is that she's working class, which honestly would only make her all the more impressive. She would have had to fight and claw her way up to get a proper education in a time when such girls generally left school to work around age 12, suppress her regional accent, put on middle class airs to say nothing of penetrating the ingrained classism of the British military. That last part would be nothing short of miraculous since even today, the MOD is still very much a bastion of the old rigid class structure.

This would be an intriguing possibility...the sort of thing that might have gotten the attention of an espionage agency....

The only wrinkle there is that it would mean that she's ashamed of her roots, otherwise she would have reverted back to her natural accent and demeanour while among friends and non-Brits. Peggy doesn't strike me as the short to be ashamed of anything about herself, nor does it feel right for her to have her guard up *all the time*, even when in a screaming rage at Stark or pouring her heart out to Steve.

To do so would make her appear less then genuine in her emotions.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Unless she's been doing it for so long that it's become who she is...the original Peggy Carter got lost to the woman she'd reinvented herself to become when she was still a child. That has intriguing possibilities. Who is Peggy Carter? Maybe even she's not quite sure anymore.

 

[ITL]

There's plenty of real life examples of Brits elocuting their way into a new accent and keeping it. Sir Alf Ramsey, for one.

 

[Christopher]

The thing that strikes me about a lot of British actors is how much their speech patterns resemble each other -- not just the accent, but the cadence and delivery, the rhythms and intonations and pitch changes as they speak. It's like they're doing impressions of each other -- or all doing impressions of the same person. Sir Patrick Stewart and Michael York, for example, have astonishingly similar deliveries. I've often wondered if there's some specialized training for British stage actors that drills them into a particular way of speaking and delivering lines, even beyond just mastering Received Pronunciation.