My secret shame, what is yours? (bad episodes you like)

[Ghost]

Hello all,

Before I begin I need to make clear that I have never been that much of a fan of Star Trek Enterprise for various reasons. For one the idea of a Star Trek prequel series never appealed to me as I felt (and still feel) a lot of writers never can get a prequel right or in case of a television studio are often made by producers and television executives to include all kinds of references even if they don't make sense.

I feel Enterprise did suffer from that as well as various stock Star Trek elements like 'species of the week' who in this case would never be mentioned again in any 'future' series, making their introduction rather pointless.
There the schizo tech which often worked as well as their future counterparts. (I understand why the settings and technologies are depicted as more modern than what we saw in the original series. It would be ridiculous to assume that even the smallest computer would be an inelegant object that can barely be carried when we now already have laptops, tablets, and smart phones), but it seemed that at some point between the 22th and 24th Century no technological progress was made. Everything was already there.

However I have come to 'tolerate' Enterprise after I watched Season 4, enjoying some parts of that season and wishing the series had started out from the beginning like that with no references to plot elements like Temporal Cold Wars (sorry but in general Star Trek never did time travel well, a good story was an exception and not the rule), with the whole Xindi arc being replaced with a build up towards the Romulan Wars.



Still I have to confess I have a secret shame which I want to share with people on this board. I actually somewhat like 'Regeneration'.

Now hear me out before you all think I am insane. I absolutely agree that this episode has flaws, both setting and plot wise and to numerous to mention all.
It does not fit the period, how much people would like to twist and bend it in. The plot made no sense in many ways like all the Borg sphere debris and drone corpses just under a layer of snow at the Arctic, a century after First Contact. And how casually the scientists went with this all. (BTW, since when are scientific expeditions heavily armed?)

It was basically fan wank and perhaps that is why I like it somewhat.
I am a fan of the Borg Collective, even after what it suffered from since First Contact (Scorpion recovered them somewhat before Dark Frontier and subsequent stuff came along. Face it, we never needed a Borg Queen), and Enterprise for all the flaws in the story depicted them somewhat again what they used to be like. This unknown ominous enemy that just goes around the galaxy harvesting technology, resources and beings.

I even liked the ship and I so much want a toy or model of that thing.


Are there any other people here who also like episodes that are in general loathed or disliked by others? A friend of mine for example likes “A night in sickbay”

Please tell which episode and why you like it. I may be a bit surprised why you might have chosen it but I promise not to laugh or question you negatively on it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I loved Regeneration. The first time I saw it I was almost ready to give up on ENT. It was shown very late here and erratically, constantly interrupted by long phone sex ads. I was tired of watching what seemed to be bland episodes while struggling to stay awake on the couch. Sometimes I would dream Trip was calling me and he wanted to know if I was alone but this didn't happen often enough to make it a great evening in.

Then came Regeneration. Wonderfully atmospheric, great The Thing homage, got a complete shock when I realized it was Borg and very pleased when I realized they never used that word. I really enjoyed it, looked FANTASTIC and kept me awake through the whole thing.

It was so much better than that time Hoshi made Malcolm a pineapple cake.

I love Enterprise now, I don't have any guilty pleasures. Apparently I am supposed to hate ANIS but Phlox's grooming is so interesting I just laugh my ass off at the Archer parts and enjoy my night with a Denobulan.

I'd just like to add though that if anyone answers with TATV they are wrong.

 

[Ghost]

Hey Teacake, I never bothered with These are the voyages even though I own the DVD box of the 4th Season of Enterprise, it just does not add much and even feels somewhat like a cop out as the crew are just characters in a holodeck simulation.

After I read its synopsis I thought that it would probably be some kind of loose adaptation by some writers on what really happened during those events. (among those a much slower ship being able to catch up with the Enterprise)
I could imagine Tucker after reading this fictional recreation of events during which he was killed no less that he grew quite frustrated that every time he introduced himself to new people who read that story that they would tell him that they thought he had died. And he has to constantly explain that it was just a loose fictional adaptation of the real mission.

As for the Borg not mentioning their name. In a sense it is accurate as the Borg never introduced themselves in 'Q who' as Guinan gave the Enterprise crew their name but I still think it is kind of messing with realism as even during the 22th Century Starfleet would keep detailed records of whatever their ships encountered for future missions. (they would at least have records on what the cyborgs look like and their modus operandi)

But yeah, at least it entertained. Nothing wrong with frivolous stuff like character interaction such as one person doing something nice for another but if that become a highlight in a Star Trek show. Yeah than something is going wrong.

 

[Willow]

Interesting thread. My secret shame is that I DIDNT hate Extinction. And I understand it was panned by just about everyone, including its director....
I found it to be reminiscent of a "B" movie, with bad dialogue, bad acting (Linda Park, I'm looking at you! And I LIKE Hoshi!) and bizarre makeup.
But I find I can watch the episode more than once, and just laugh and laugh and laugh...

Any episode that I'm willing to watch more than once cannot be THAT bad. The only episodes I refuse to watch again are Dear Doctor, Precious Cargo and Carbon Creek (this last one being solely because it was T'Pol-centric and she is not my favorite)

And Teacake, why would ANYONE choose TATV? Because seriously, I've recatagorized that episode as a "very late entry TNG"..I would never acknowledge THAT as being a part of my beloved Enterprise! And that's from someone who pretty much despises Dear Doctor.

 

[Ghost]

I always felt Dear Doctor should have had some kind of follow up. In a fan fiction idea I had the Valakians met the vampire ship aliens after the Enterprise left their system and they traded with these aliens for warp drive technology, a medical explanation and cure to their condition and so on.

At some point these aliens reveal to the Valakians that Phlox did find out what was killing the Valakians and had developed a cure, but withheld it because he felt that he should not intervene and let the Menk take the place of the Valakians.

The Valakians, rightfully pissed hired the vampire ship aliens to kidnap Phlox and bring him back to Valakia to stand trial. The Enterprise crew pursue them and once on Valakis try to defend Phlox in court
A side story would have been that some of the Enterprise crew (among which Mayweather, he needs to have more purpose) together with some Valakian anthropologists are trying to find out why suddenly the lands where the Menk live are off limits to everyone except government personnel. They go there in secret and discover what the Valakians were actually selling to the vampire ship aliens in return for technology and a cure; Menk whose bodies were being harvested for materials that could be used for medical goods.

The crew inform Archer about this and it is brought up during the trial of Phlox. Apparently the majority of the Valakians did not know about this and are outraged by what their government has done even though some of them could have probably found out about if they had looked further into it.

Phlox is released but as the Enterprise leaves the Valakian system Archer or Hoshi finds Phlox in thought in the lounge/observatory. He feels guilty for what has happened to both the Valakians and the Menk as he feels that it was his actions and decisions that made the Valakian government so desperate for any kind of help.
He feels that as a doctor he has done harm to his patients and now has to live with that guilt for the rest of his life.

[/fan fiction] :P

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Cool thread!

I found something to like in every episode, so I suppose a lot of them would qualify as guilty pleasures. I enjoyed the first two seasons because of all the wonderful little character moments.

I think "A Night in Sickbay" is both hilarious, watching Archer's very bad no good terrible day, and heart-wrenching, as he worries over possibly losing his beloved Porthos. I totally get that Archer's worry would lead to everything else that happened, so the episode works fine for me. And the bat, what's not to love about Phlox and his cute furry white bat?

I think there are some knockout scenes in "Extinction," like the peaches scene with Trip and T'Pol at the beginning, and the poignancy of the scene where the Archer-creature finds the ruins of the lost civilization, and of course T'Pol in her white away-mission catsuit, gorgeous.

I don't hate "Daedalus," probably because in my head I filled in all kinds of missing story regarding Danica and her terrible life with an obsessed, controlling father, and Archer treating her like a sweet adopted sister, and I thought the production design was great.

TATV, eh, T'Pol's hair was nice, and Archer's dress uniform. But yeah, mostly a kick in the teeth.

 

[Goji]

I've never really been onboard for the idea of the guilty pleasure, but I take it that the Space Nazi episodes aren't especially well-liked, and I get a decent enough kick out of them. They feel very TOS, with just the right amount of goofiness. Late-era Trek needed more of that.

 

[Willow]

Ghost...your follow up idea to Dear Doctor is very intriguing! I would have loved to see Phlox (and Archer) have to face the consequences of their "actions". Phlox claimed he basically didn't want to take any "action" that would influence the "natural evolution" of either species. But, his DECISION to NOT take action was really an "action " itself. His inaction was a choice. He favored one species over another,because basically , the Enterprise crew was already involved with the issue. If Phlox/Archer took action to save the ill populace, they definitely would have an impact on the future of the population. But taking NO action affected their future too. And the future is never "fixed". (though Arccher doesn't learn this lesson very well until several contacts with Daniels).

They made a choice of one group over the other.. And their reasoning was flawed. And they contributed to the deaths of thousands? Millions? And Phlox is a DOCTOR.at any rate, I wish they had to answer for their decision.

Oh, also, it seemed to me that Archer and Co didn't agree with the way the more "dominant" culture treated the other culture, even though they had developed their own symbiotic relationship..one which didn't bother the people involved. But then,,it wasn't the first or last time that the humans judged alien cultures based on HUMAN values. I wonder if that factored into their decision........

 

[Ghost]

Goji,I see where you are getting at.
Yeah it is something they did in the original series (Patterns of Force).
I guess people found it rather ridiculous as the whole 'What if the Nazis won WW2' concept is considered rather a cliché and a silly time travel trope.

In truth it would not have been very likely that Nazi German would have crossed the Atlantic to invade the US, even with advanced technology.
Despite being technologically 'behind' on Nazi Germany the US still had a sizeable industrial infrastructure and population that would make such an invasion a serious investment of resources that would better be put to use to fortify the territories the Nazis had gained in Europe.
Instead, probably some sort of cold war would develop between the two superpowers.

Enough 'what if...'


Little divided on if Star Trek needed more goofiness.
Perhaps less a stickler of political correctness and some more attempts at light heartedness in serious situations but I think the ridiculousness of old sci fi should be left out.


Willow, some of the things that annoyed me about Dear Doctor was about the explanation of what was killing the Valakians and the reference to evolution. (faulty genetics killing them is one thing, favouring one species over another goes a little to much into that some plan is behind it)

Someone who is much better at both debate and analysing Star Trek once wrote what the probable idea behind the Prime Directive was. It was originally not so much about not wanting to help people who were in need of help because of natural reasons or a calamity, but rather not getting involved in the politics of others by telling people how to think and act. (basically steering other countries/nations or in this case alien civilization along your own plans or wishes with possible disastrous social or political repercussions)

It was perfectly fine if the crew intervened in order to help a pre warp civilization (or warp capable one) but would have to be done in such a way that such a civilization would not be aware of it as it could influence their development. All the crew would do is make sure that that development would continue in its own way.

TNG made the Prime Directive into something like how warp capable civilizations should not intervene in any way in the affairs of non warp civilizations as it could influence some grand design by a higher being.

If for example a world was being threatened by something like a solar flare or an asteroid that could render the planet lifeless, and a Starfleet crew intervened it could give rise to the next space Hitler or something.

If Starfleet and the Federation were so worried about affecting the universe around them and disturbing such a design they should basically have banned any manned space travel as even careless civilian vessels could possibly upset this balance the Feds seek to maintain.

I do think that was a weakness of Enterprise, its crew in general did not have to deal with any consequences of their deeds (like many ST crews before them) as at the end of such situations they just moved on, never looking back to see what that action caused.
Only later on the people working on the show realized that they should handle such topics as well as otherwise it would make many episodes rather a waste of time and money.


>Oh, also, it seemed to me that Archer and Co didn't agree with the way the more "dominant" culture treated the other culture, even though they had developed their own symbiotic relationship..one which didn't bother the people involved.

Indeed, the Menk weren't mistreated or abused and the Valakians saw to it that they were provided for and have their own lands to live in.
Yes the Valakians saw the Menk as less developed but unlike real life situations it did not seem to result in the Valakians misusing that situation in order to 'help' the Menk, perhaps conscripting them or enslaving them.

I am not even sure if the Valakians would have seen it as such a problem if the Menk would eventually become more intelligent if that was the result of their own development, and the Valakians definitely did not seem to stand in the way of that.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I don't know that I have any guilty pleasures per se, but I'm guilty of having not outright hated TATV the one time I watched it, ten years and two weeks ago. I definitely recall thinking it was inferior to the first of the two episodes that aired that evening, and I definitely found it underwhelming, but I didn't hate it. And I've carried that memory with me for over a decade and counting.

I suppose in a way over half the things I enjoy in life are guilty pleasures. If I can recognize that something isn't especially intellectually nourishing but still love my experiences with it then it's something of a guilty pleasure. In that regard plenty of Trek fits the bill, and so my answer might be, "most of Enterprise." ;P

 

[F. King Daniel]

Extinction. Not the best episode ever, but they went all-out and I respect them for it.

Storm Front. Space Nazis are goofy but fun comic-book villains.

 

[Gaith]

I think there are some knockout scenes in "Extinction," like the peaches scene with Trip and T'Pol at the beginning, and the poignancy of the scene where the Archer-creature finds the ruins of the lost civilization, and of course T'Pol in her white away-mission catsuit, gorgeous.

Agreed, I dug the quasi-Lovecraftian poignancy.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

De-volving has always been an embarrassing episode theme

 

[Willow]

De-volving has always been an embarrassing episode theme

But given the choice, I choose the Loquque (sp?) over the....salamanders......

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I love my salamanders, the campest bit if Trek ever. The whole episode is a trip.

I especially love that the baby salamanders are listed in Memory Alpha under Paris and Janeway's bios as their children.

 

[Willow]

I love my salamanders, the campest bit if Trek ever. The whole episode is a trip.

I especially love that the baby salamanders are listed in Memory Alpha under Paris and Janeway's bios as their children.

Omg! I never realized that! I'll have to check that out...did they name them?

And I probably am not in the best position to comment on that episode since I read the synopsis, and bypassed it altogether during my viewing of Voyager. Kinda weird, since I DID dare to watch TATV....though that was probably more because of the "attraction" of it (like looky-loos at a traffic accident)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

IF you want infamous episodes you have to watch Threshold. It's wonderfully bizarre and for the first third or so is just a normal episode with a normal Trek storyline. Then they all drop some acid and WOO! I love it and the actors play it for comedy.

TATV will never be "it's so bad, it's good" because it is bad like a tragedy not a comedy.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I thought it was, as they say, "2deep4me" when I first watched it. I was like 9 or 10 years old, so I just filed it away under my increasingly-lengthy list of all the episodes that surely went over my head merely because I was far too young to fully appreciate their incredible depth and all the things they said about life, the universe, and everything.

No, it's really just the campiest thing ever in the history of life, the universe, and everything. "Threshold" is god-tier terrible television.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's terrible unless you think Trek needs more camp, which I do.

That's just one reason I love VI so much, incredibly campy and hilarious.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

TUC is my jam, although I'm not sure how much of that stems from my having watched it on VHS basically everyday when I was really, really young. My grandmother owned it and I probably saw it as often as any Star Wars movie.

I tell people who haven't seen it that General Chang is an eyepatch-touting rustic old Klingon warrior who spouts Shakespeare for half his dialogue, and they're like, "you're kidding, right?" And I have to remind them that this isn't a bad thing, dammit; this is the best thing ever, you're wrong.