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TNG Rewatch: 6x11 - "Chain of Command, Part II"

Trekker4747

Boldly going...
Premium Member
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We pick-up where we left off in the previous episode, with Picard captured by a Cardassian leader on a remote outpost, Picard has been drugged to give up information that the Carsassians want. Later, after being questioned, Picard is stripped of his clothes and told that there he enjoys no privilege of name or rank and is only there to answer the questions he is asked at the whims of Gul Madred.

As Picard's stay wears on it becomes more and more clear Madred is less interested in any information Picard may have and more interested in simply defeating Picard psychologically. He's installed a pain-inducing implant into Picard; and shows Picard a bank of four lights behind Madred's desk. He asks Picard how many lights he sees, when Picard answers "Four" Madred insists Picard is mistaken and induces the pain.

Madred continues to play a battle of wits with Picard as Picard remains resolute in his defiance of Madred, even questioning Madred's "masculinity" and steadiness after Madred relates a childhood story.

Meanwhile, Jelico continues the negotiations and political battles with the Cardassians in space. Riker questions Jelico's command decisions one too many times and is relieved of duty, advancing Data to First Officer.

The Cardassians use Picard's interrogation video as evidence of him being captured and insist that Picard's team could be interpreted as an act of war, pushing Jelico in a corner. If he admits Picard's team was there as part of a covert operation it'd be an act of war but Picard would get the protections of a Geneva Convention-like treaty between the Cardassians and Federation. Without admitting that Picard was under orders, Picard is treated simply as an independent terrorist and has no such protections.

.... Hmmmm.

Anyway, Jelico maintains he has know knowledge of what Picard was doing on the Cardassian planet.

(Worf and Crusher have managed to return safely to the ship.)

Evidence is found on the hull of the Cardassian ship that it has been in a nebula near one of the disputed planets, the Enterprise goes there and finds more hidden Cardassian ships. Geordi comes up with a plan to mine the nebula but needs the help of Riker's piloting skills to safely navigate the asteroid. Jelico, reluctantly, goes to Riker where both speak freely on their feelings of the other. Neither believing the other one to be good at their respective jobs. Jelico accuses Riker of being arrogant and insubordinate and Riker accuses Jelico of also being arrogant but also only able to lead by winding people up into tension as opposed to inspiration of leadership.

Riker agrees to do the mission, only if Jelico asks.

Riker and Geordi successfully mine the areas of the nebula near the Cardassian ships and Jelico uses them to convince the Cardassians to pull out of the area and to return Picard.

Before Picard is informed of his release, Madred gives Picard one final chance. Either remain in captivity, or admit to seeing five lights and get to live a life of relative comfort and scholarly enlightenment on the Cardassian planet. Picard considers the lights, and his options, before two other Cardassian soldiers come in to clean Picard up and get him back to the Enterprise. Before leaving, Picard shouts that there are four lights.

Back on the ship, Jelico transfers command back to Picard and departs the ship. In a private session with a properly uniformed Troi, Picard tells her of his time with Madred and says that he considered saying he saw five lights to get the life of comfort and even believes he saw five lights.

----

Much discussion was made in the other thread about the command differences between Jelico and Picard and on how Riker handles the situation in the two episodes, particularly in this one where Riker is relieved of command.

But the episode still gives us a touch more information -brought up in the other thread.

In the other thread I talked about the movie "Crimson Tide" where a first officer of a nuclear submarine defies his captain over a disputed order -this one involving the launching of nuclear weapons. The captain cannot launch without the consent of his XO and series of mutinies result as the two men battle to see their version of events carry out. At one point the captain -played by Gene Hackman- even attempts to get his way by relieving his XO and appointing a new one. (Even though this is against Marine protocol.)

The same thing happens in this episode. Riker may be out of line in his questioning Jelico's orders or refusal to admit anything in order to get Picard the political protections but as Riker points out, that's his job. It's his duty to see the protection of crew members and to speak-up when he thinks the Captain is behaving out of line. Jelico's answer to this? Dismiss Riker and put someone in who *WILL* do what he wants.

Hard to see how this is the right way to do things. If Riker's right and is truly doing his job in reminding the Captain of his duties and obligations, even if they conflict with what the Captain currently wants, then Jelico is a touch out of line in simply dismissing Riker and installing someone who will back him up. I say again, Jelico didn't want a first-officer, someone to question him and bring him other solutions or remind him of his duties. He wanted to hear his own ideas repeated back to him. He wanted a Yes Man.

Some also said that the rest of the crew seemed more willing to work with Jelico once Riker was out of the way. That doesn't seem entirely true. We're not given much opportunity to actually see how the crew behaves once Riker is stepped aside. The most cooperation we really see is Geordi working with Jelico in setting up the mine field. But they do seem to question Jelico's orders in one of their conferences and Crusher even shows some annoyance for the battle likelihood and dealing with the casualties.

All of that aside, this real focus of this episode comes in the form of Picard's captivity. It's interesting to see how solidly Picard keeps his ground while in captivity. At one point Madred even offers to release Picard but, instead, says they will torture information out of Crusher -Picard not knowing she's back on the ship- and we see Picard willing stay with his torturer in order to prevent harm from coming to Beverly.

The scenes between Madred and Picard are some of the best in the series.

But, in the end, is it or.... Is nothing resolved?

It doesn't seem like border dispute is ever really solved. In fact the Enterprise[/b] seems to leave the Cardassian capital ship pretty quickly to go to the nebula when up until that point they remained there for the negotiation appearances.

The Cardassians offer to return the captive Picard but doing so means admitting the covert operations which would greatly increase tensions and having to give up the disputed territory.

The Cardassians remain pretty steadfast in not giving up the disputed territory as does Jelico. But after the encounter in the nebula the Cardassians just.... leave?

When was the territory dispute ever resolved?

And, um, was Picard going commando under his, er, commando suit?

Anyway, another good episode.
 
It is not Riker's job to get in somebody's face argumentatively every time he disagrees. His behavior is what got him relieved, & even Troi saw the writing on the wall just before it got to that point. Couple that with the fact that he'd been wholly unsatisfactory up until that point, and hey, maybe Jellico saw an opportunity to let the guy dig his own grave, and nudged him down that road. If the guy is going to lose it, so much the better. Do it now, so we can get on with the mission

Every time someone had something to offer, Jellico does hear them out, and gives a counterpoint if he is dismissing it. There is nothing that says he has to do what subordinates are telling him to do, least of all if he is better briefed in what must be done. This could in fact be the worst time ever to run a mission democratically. Beverly never likes the possibility that people might get hurt. That's fine. She doesn't have to like it, but that's what she's there for. She wasn't out of line though. She pushed the attitude as close as she could, but not over, & neither did anyone else

But Will was diametrically opposed to everything Jellico was doing there. He thought he knew better. He thought he should have been the decision maker to begin with, and he never got over it. He was a willful obstacle. Nobody else had that problem

If Jellico was really looking for only yes men, then why would he have taken Geordi's recommendation to use Riker? He clearly did not want to do that. There he is doing something he doesn't personally want, and yet everyone keeps saying all he does is what he wants. That's just not true

The very next scene after Riker is relieved, Data & Geordi, who are essentially Jellico's top officers at the moment, are getting to the bottom of this situation in short order. They begin working exceedingly well with one another almost immediately, in that scene, and the next one where Geordi and Jellico figure out they're planning to attack Minos Korva

Sure no one wants to go for the throat, and they voice some concern in that final briefing, but they're teetering on the edge of war. Again, we want more recognition paid to our regular crew, because we like them. We've liked them for 6 years. It's bias. Jellico isn't just an antagonist. What kind of antagonist makes moves which win the day, and then gets to give the badass speech that returns our beloved hero alive? He's on our side. He's one of the good guys, and he figures his way through a really tough spot in being put on a ship full of strangers

Oh yeah, about your point on the dispute. Jellico leaves the entire invasion fleet defensless (Actually offenseless without a primary phaser coil or whatever)

Whatever disputes they had were over systems they'd already given up in armistice. The only thing that got them to the negotiating table was the threat of military action, which has been quelled. They were trying a ploy to get a foothold in those systems again, and it fell through. They had to skulk home defenseless, and if they were intending to do anything about it, it would be later, at a time when Starfleet would be prepared, & would now know how to handle it
 
It does kind of wrap things up a little too quickly but a solid episode. I generally think Riker was the right one in the debate with Jellico. When Jellico saves earth from the borg then maybe I'll respect his leadership style more than Riker's. The man needs to take a yoga class and unwind, maybe one of Troi's mom's mudbaths.

It kind of bothers me that no one says goodbye to the man when he's leaving at the end though. At least a goodbye from Riker would have been nice, shown they respected eachother a little more.

What I'm interested in is how Picard and Jellico would have gotten along together. There was already some friction between them when he got rid of Picard's book.
 
If Jellico was really looking for only yes men, then why would he have taken Geordi's recommendation to use Riker?

Dialogue suggests that Jelico didn't take the recommendation to use Riker right away. When Jelico visits Riker, Riker points out that he's heard Jelico's talked to all of the other pilots on the ship before going to him, because they all said he was the best pilot for such a mission.
 
If Jellico was really looking for only yes men, then why would he have taken Geordi's recommendation to use Riker?

Dialogue suggests that Jelico didn't take the recommendation to use Riker right away. When Jelico visits Riker, Riker points out that he's heard Jelico's talked to all of the other pilots on the ship before going to him, because they all said he was the best pilot for such a mission.
We don't know when he asked Geordi in relation to when he asked others. All we know is Jellico asked multiple people, which doesn't change the fact that he asked around, researched it, and that the feedback he got was that the best pilot was Riker, and he respected that, & took the recommendation, which I assume Geordi played a large part in, because his scene about it was featured, he ends up being the one going on the shuttle mission with Riker, and he was also one of the people instrumental in hatching & prepping the mission.

The Borg are not Cardassians. To be an expert in one doesn't mean you're an expert in both (& I'm not even convinced Riker is an expert on the Borg. It was Data that saved everyone's hide that day) The fact is, Riker is not in charge here. Given that set of circumstances, he did not act appropriately. Everyone else managed to adjust, including Jellico, as I stated above

Riker's whole point boils down to Jellico having "Everybody wound up so tight, there's no joy in anything" Really? That's your problem? He didn't bring enough joy with him to suit you? It's a war you're looking at. I'm sorry it isn't the party you were hoping for. Go sucks eggs. He had everyone working in a way that solved the problem. He had you wound up tight because you didn't want to do it that way
 
It's interesting that Jellico would select a yes-man as his new XO - when Picard in the pilot episode deliberately selected a no-man!

"Encounter at Farpoint" establishes that skippers indeed get to choose their minions, including the man who sometimes is claimed to be tasked with being the conscience of the CO. Picard chose his, Jellico chose his, and Sisko and Janeway chose theirs (admittedly under exceptional circumstances). Archer had his chosen for him by the superiors of his superiors, although it appears he originally chose his best buddy Tucker.

But, in the end, is it or.... Is nothing resolved?
If one follows the stardates, it appears that this very incident, the utter collapsing of the latest conquest plan by the Central Command, is what led to their disgrace and gave the Detapa Council the political leverage to force the Central Command out of Bajor...

Beyond this point, Cardassians no longer bother the UFP much; they have their hands full at Bajor. Then come the Maquis ("Journey's End" would seem to be a more or less direct sequel to the events of this pair of episodes, and "Preemptive Strike" flows from there), and again there is action, but the Central Command no longer has the guts to send in actual warships: those only operate out of sight - say, in the Badlands. Beyond this point, it's all covert ops (perhaps more the doing of Obsidian Order than Central Command) and downright timidity on the part of the Cardassians. Until the Dominion arrives...

Timo Saloniemi
 
These episodes are a great example of how bizarre our attitudes about violence and sex are. The scenes of Picard being tortured were very well acted and visceral to the point of being uncomfortable to watch, even as an adult. It says so much about us that this was considered acceptable family television, while we know that anything approaching that level of realism in a sexual scene would be immediately protested against.

I'm not arguing that the scenes shouldn't have been shown. I'm only saying it says a lot about our taboos.

How many times has Picard been completely mind-f****d at this point? The man is going to need a lot more than just a ship's counselor to deal with all that PTSD.
 
Agreed about pushing the boundaries on violence.. Ive been rewatching this - and maybe thats a testament to its standalone relevance- in the interviews for the special (which I hope to get hands on by years end) Stewart talks about the need to explore those dark perils. Good if you feel uncomfortable watching.. You have to have a gold and good heart. I take the stand point that much of TV nowadays is not worth the price paid since reality TV etc has.come about this episode reminds me of the good TV can play in showing the raw emotion.. I really enjoy incl as posted elsewhere Ronny Cox giving a superb no bs command style.. I like this play better than most Klingon episodes and I remember hearing as well in episodes that its true the episode doesnt make all ths much sense but the acting and the scenes. Definitely vote for top 10 like the Entertainment Weekly poll. Picard again gets another experience to shape future.





These episodes are a great example of how bizarre our attitudes about violence and sex are. The scenes of Picard being tortured were very well acted and visceral to the point of being uncomfortable to watch, even as an adult. It says so much about us that this was considered acceptable family television, while we know that anything approaching that level of realism in a sexual scene would be immediately protested against.


How many times has Picard been completely mind-f****d at this point? The man is going to need a lot more than just a ship's counselor to deal with all that PTSD.
 
Agreed its a hard one to watch but us too on earth are living in perilous times as well notwithstanding previous global affairs many feel the states like many other countries may have a civil war if things don't change. Does the episode strengthen human resolve when faced with evil? The lines in this one are so good to belly full but spirit empty.. Do any have the opinion re the lights if he should've given in? At some point arent u really just playing Madreds game?
 
I think Riker's undies got bunched when the little admiral lady came to the ship and he thought she was going to tell him that he was going to be appointed Capitan. Then she kicked him in the stomach by telling him that they were bringing in an outsider.

As far as the torture of Picard vs. sexuality in TV shows. (USA)
LOL on network TV, not that I view very much anymore, but it seems that is still the norm.
Gruesome violence but God forbid anyone EVER see a penis!!!!:lol:

Back in the day I had a freaky sister in law that thought see Picard naked was sexy.:ack:

I like the episode though. It shows that Picard, through strength of character and mind, is able to take a situation that would break most people in the most horrible way,
And turn it on his captor.
The Cardassisn reveled something from his past and Picard had the power and presence of mind to use that to his advantage.
The ending of his captivity, painful to watch due to Stewart's supreme acting ability, was the demonstration to his captor that he was unable to break Picard's spirit.
I was in the US Army and I met some men that were/would have been as strong and savvy as Picard.
This two part episode is one of my favorites,
Yea, yea, Starfleet isn't the military, blah blah
But in this episode it reminds me so much of the military, it makes it interesting to watch.
The only part I hate is when that bitch Troi responds to Riker's statement the Jelico seems really sure of himself, that he isn't sure of himself. I found that completly unprofessional based on her job on the ship as well as her rank.
I would have found it more acceptable if she was a young, crewman that worked in maintenance. Par for course however, she was given bad lines.
 
Lol @Nakita Akita

RE Troi. Yes @ S1 / espisodes early on when they make her dialogue babble on and Pulaski too. lines where they share too much on their opinion (think Conspiracy where she
On abt the delav to Pacifica for some reason..)

What Jellico said makes sense in tone whether she thinks he can actually pull through isnt anyones biz.

Just wish they had more logic out of the mission to pull 3 of the enterprise stars (the part of a Noted officer!) VS I dont how many u could count that they were up againstter and WTF was thus thing about destroy at any cost.. If there was an installation there like hell the 3 of them would destroy &d get out in time.. That part is really nuts.. Unless it was bin ladens camp ground where all they experienced was the porno.. Not the brainiest of schemes…

m u
 
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Going to once more again profess my love for this episode.. *JUST GETS ME GOING IN THE MORNING HAHA!*
Way ahead of its time on another key frontier. I believe its the same in US but in Canada has happened once twice.. hell too many that our citizens find themselves in god knows where places (I WOULD NEVER - EVER!) issue of paying ransom for those taken by said group...

There was one that was taken by ISIS in Somalia and the news has covered this to a certain degree...
the very consistent and ahead of its time how cold Jellico is but that at least currently seems to be the temperature (officially) - however there was one other - name was Fowler or something which the story has only recently come to light that the Canadian Govmnt did pay in some fashion. But Officially at least the line is that they do not pay ransoms (he was a very high figure in the diplomatic scene so I will say that lep of faith was a one off for Canada.. there was a well covered (in media) woman and it was worked out supposedly unofficially)
and shrowded in secrecy there was one other from our brpadcast company which has been swept under the rug... hmmm almost forgot about that one

.. and on that note I conclude Jellico is correct in the part where he's shown the tape of JLP drugged etc and says "not my concern" at least currently and officially it seems consistent with current "Western..." "Canadian" policy.- only beef with this - to sort the wires in correct places is again.. Old Man JLP - WHO HAD NO SECURITY CREDENTIALS (seems like even Jellico knew more) would be more of a thrill target more than someone within the Starfleet core intelligence kind of rank - and again likely wouldn't be sent there in that fashion.. they had better cover in Unification so why would they go in covert but non covert here
 
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Going to once more again profess my love for this episode.. *JUST GETS ME GOING IN THE MORNING HAHA!*
Way ahead of its time on another key frontier. I believe its the same in US but in Canada has happened once twice.. hell too many that our citizens find themselves in god knows where places (I WOULD NEVER - EVER!) issue of paying ransom for those taken by said group...

There was one that was taken by ISIS in Somalia and the news has covered this to a certain degree...
the very consistent and ahead of its time how cold Jellico is but that at least currently seems to be the temperature (officially) - however there was one other - name was Fowler or something which the story has only recently come to light that the Canadian Govmnt did pay in some fashion. But Officially at least the line is that they do not pay ransoms (he was a very high figure in the diplomatic scene so I will say that lep of faith was a one off for Canada.. there was a well covered (in media) woman and it was worked out supposedly unofficially)
and shrowded in secrecy there was one other from our brpadcast company which has been swept under the rug... hmmm almost forgot about that one

.. and on that note I conclude Jellico is correct in the part where he's shown the tape of JLP drugged etc and says "not my concern" at least currently and officially it seems consistent with current "Western..." "Canadian" policy.- only beef with this - to sort the wires in correct places is again.. Old Man JLP - WHO HAD NO SECURITY CREDENTIALS (seems like even Jellico knew more) would be more of a thrill target more than someone within the Starfleet core intelligence kind of rank - and again likely wouldn't be sent there in that fashion.. they had better cover in Unification so why would they go in covert but non covert here
Good grief, how far off topic can you go? This plus the previous post earn you another SPAM warning. Anticipating the snarky comment.
 
Lol @Nakita Akita

RE Troi. Yes @ S1 / espisodes early on when they make her dialogue babble on and Pulaski too. lines where they share too much on their opinion (think Conspiracy where she
On abt the delav to Pacifica for some reason..)

What Jellico said makes sense in tone whether she thinks he can actually pull through isnt anyones biz.

Just wish they had more logic out of the mission to pull 3 of the enterprise stars (the part of a Noted officer!) VS I dont how many u could count that they were up againstter and WTF was thus thing about destroy at any cost.. If there was an installation there like hell the 3 of them would destroy &d get out in time.. That part is really nuts.. Unless it was bin ladens camp ground where all they experienced was the porno.. Not the brainiest of schemes…

m u
Hey dude, you need to learn how to write properly. You waste your time making long posts that don't make sense and even if they possibly do make sense because of your inability to type it makes it too difficult for any one to actually want to wade through.
Boring dude, really boring.
 
Hey dude, you need to learn how to write properly. You waste your time making long posts that don't make sense and even if they possibly do make sense because of your inability to type it makes it too difficult for any one to actually want to wade through.
Boring dude, really boring.
Its not your responsibility to rag on another poster for their writing style or English proficiency.
 
Badass Jellico made it clear that Picard was a wussy, incompetent Captain. The whole series would have been better if Jellico was Captain the whole time.
 
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