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Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Ticking boxes on diversity is what I'd like to see gone from Trek. The main objective of any writer should be to tell a compelling story, not to buck social norms for the sake novelty or PC value.

You're getting it backwards. Diversity is the natural state of the human race. More than half of humanity is Asian; less than a fifth of it is white. In an honest, balanced portrayal of the human race, diversity will happen automatically, because it's simply the truth of the world. You have to make a conscious effort to avoid diversity, to cling to the artificial, fabricated image of a world dominated by white heterosexual males. That's the political statement, that active denial of the reality of diversity.

Just look at the current Hugo nomination controversy. The ones bringing politics into it are the ones protesting diversity and pushing for a slate friendly to a conservative, traditional, white-dominated portrayal. Whereas the more inclusive works of fiction in this and earlier years didn't get there because of an active political campaign; they just happened to be written and published and enjoyed by the readers. Diversity is increasingly becoming the norm, the natural and unaffected state of affairs. Many of America's major cities, like New York, LA, and San Francisco, are white-minority now. So it's the people resisting diversity, those continuing to make stories and movies dominated by white people, who are trying to fill artificial quotas. The rest of us are just acknowledging reality.

Very much agreed. To write in support, I'm of the firm belief that diversity adds to a compelling story, often without even trying, because we as a generalized audience don't take different experiences into context. And it's not a novelty or for PC because that writing reflects those experiences -- what's different to you might have an impact on me, or vice versa, but it's a way of walking a mile in one's shoes.

To wit, whatever one's opinion on Sisko or Janeway may be, we'd have to take into account that, yes, their experiences would be different than if they were the white male leads that we see in 90% of all TV shows. Janeway, to my knowledge, never faced sexism from her crew; but you don't need sexism to demarcate her femininity and, in many cases, her maternal approach to the crew. Indeed, she ended up a positive influence on the show and on Trek as a whole (just look at the Voyager forums). And for Sisko, even if we removed all of his references to the 20th century civil rights movements, it's still something of an incredibly big deal to see a black man and father as the head of a space station and lead protagonist of a show, precisely because we have strong black leaders in the real world in many fields; so there's definitely a point of entrance to relation and reference (the same way how Whoopi Goldberg and Mae Jemison were inspired by Uhura, who Trekkies often dismiss as just the earpiece lady, but back then was definitely an anomaly -- to Whoopi and Mae, seeing a black person in power in turn empowered them in a world that kept trying to tear down their own power).

Then there's tokenism, and what it is and isn't. Having a minority in a major role just to show that you're PC is tokenism. However, having a minority in a major role because that's the experience of the writer and that's what they envision, is not, because if the minority is a presence in the writer's world view, it translates to sharing the presence in the reader's world view as well. The key difference there, I feel, is cynicism -- tokenism includes minorities because they feel they have to, as if by quota; non-tokenism includes minorities because they feel it's a reflection on reality, and that minority storytelling has contributions to the world of fiction.

It really strikes me as odd that we can take space zombies and cosmic gods and giant amoeba and time travel in stride, but bring a person who deviates from what is considered "the norm" on the bridge and suddenly we shut down our suspension of disbelief out of cynicism.
 
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Re: ESP : There might be at least some real life evidence for ESP or PSI. They did a weird experiment at a Grateful Dead concert that involved the crowd mentally sending images of paintings to two sleeping volunteers miles away.

There have been plenty of experiments that seemed to demonstrate remote viewing and other psi abilities, but they've usually been found to be the result of bad experimental design or deliberate fraud by the subjects being experimented on. The problem is that scientists are used to drawing conclusions from what they observe, so they can be fooled by deliberate illusion and misdirection. Which is why it took magicians like James Randi and others to explain the tricks and debunk the frauds.

Anyway, the essence of science is repeatability. One experiment isn't real evidence; it takes multiple experiments showing a consistent result, and it takes a theory that's based on those results and makes predictions that can be tested by further experiments. Not only has there not been consistent, reliable experimental data, but there's never really been a theory offered for just how psi powers would work if they existed, what their physical mechanisms and causes are.


With Deanna Troi, you'd have to believe she can sense a person's emotions in ship over a mile away-- over a view screen. Sure. :lol:

I always figured that was mainly just a heightened sensitivity to body language and microexpressions. There are some people, like people with autism, who are unable to read people's body language or tone of voice to discern their emotional state, and who therefore can't recognize things like sarcasm and take everything literally (basically like Data). Compared to them, people with typical emotional perceptiveness would be like empaths. So it follows that it could be possible to go in the other direction, to have people whose perceptiveness of others' emotions is so keen compared to the average human's that it seems almost psychic. Animals can do this to an extent; people often think their dogs or horses or whatever have psychic abilities, but they're really just better at reading body language and nonverbal cues than we are, not to mention able to smell our body chemistry immensely better than we can (though that wouldn't work over a viewscreen).

Indeed, I think that's a missed opportunity for science fiction. Instead of assuming that any sense beyond normal human perception is psychic or metaphysical, why not explore those other kinds of physical perception that can exist in nonhuman animals? Imagine, say, a species that can see in infrared. They could see your heart rate and blood flow and read your emotional state that way, making them essentially "empaths." (Who knows, maybe that's what Deanna's seeing on the viewscreen.)
To be clear autistic folk like myself are not automatically unempathetic.

A new theory that is gaining alot of ground is that we may have traits of beening super empathic(atleast those on the high end of the spectrum.

I.E. The problem is that our super empathy may be blinding. (I.E. It's not that I cna't simply detect sarcasm I can also detect the motivations/discomfort that motivates someone to tell a joke.)

The tng episode with the giant ship(tin man) that only a super powerful betazoid could connect to seems to capture this concept greatly.
 
I wish this whole "Star Trek was never meant to be a military organization" crap that Roddenberry really started pushing after he got kick out of the loop after TMP could go away.

It really couldn't be more obvious that starfleet is basically the United States Navy in space. The ship is named USS Enterprise, which was the most powerful warship in the world at the time of the show's premier and not associated with exploration. The vast amount of terminology and elements of the navy they carried over to the show plus the fact they always had heavy weapons and enemies to fight.

It really couldn't be anymore obvious the shows military ties. Sure it had a scientific and exploration element but Roddenberry knew a show where all they did was meet a new race every week wouldn't fly.......So it had military elements and conflict right from the start.

It was only after TMP when Meyer and Bennett emphasized the military element more that Roddenberry did this retcon BS about Starfleet being an organization of peace and discovery and was never meant to be military or confrontational. Something which many fans bought into when it was never true.

Meh this is not just against official canon, it's also not clear in the details.

Starfleet is a mix of Navy/US coast Guard/ humanitarian/UN/ Nasa.

Nasa and redcross of course have tonnes of reference to military, which makes it no surprise that the military presence is so strong.

However it's bloody clear it's not a true military vessel.

There's tonnes of examples where this idea is contradicted.
 
I wish this whole "Star Trek was never meant to be a military organization" crap that Roddenberry really started pushing after he got kick out of the loop after TMP could go away.

It really couldn't be more obvious that starfleet is basically the United States Navy in space. The ship is named USS Enterprise, which was the most powerful warship in the world at the time of the show's premier and not associated with exploration. The vast amount of terminology and elements of the navy they carried over to the show plus the fact they always had heavy weapons and enemies to fight.

It really couldn't be anymore obvious the shows military ties. Sure it had a scientific and exploration element but Roddenberry knew a show where all they did was meet a new race every week wouldn't fly.......So it had military elements and conflict right from the start.

It was only after TMP when Meyer and Bennett emphasized the military element more that Roddenberry did this retcon BS about Starfleet being an organization of peace and discovery and was never meant to be military or confrontational. Something which many fans bought into when it was never true.

Meh this is not just against official canon, it's also not clear in the details.

Starfleet is a mix of Navy/US coast Guard/ humanitarian/UN/ Nasa.

Nasa and redcross of course have tonnes of reference to military, which makes it no surprise that the military presence is so strong.

However it's bloody clear it's not a true military vessel.

There's tonnes of examples where this idea is contradicted.


And I could probably give at least 100 examples where the ties to the military, especially the US Navy, couldn't be more obvious if you wrote the show from the Bluejacket Manual itself.

They always justified this being heavily armed, whether if be the Enterprise itself or carrying weapons everytime they went on some mission as "well....just in case".

Last time I checked NASA never put a missile or two any of it's spacecraft "just in case" there was some unknown force out there it encountered. National Geographic crews don't go into places they're exploring packing large amounts of firepower.

Starfleet was a mix of the navy and NASA, but the military elements dominate. The protocol, ranks, terminology, uniforms, weapons, structure.....all of them are far more tilted to the military than NASA.
 
Personally I wish they'd get rid of General Order 12.....What's the point in having it when ship captains, including Kirk himself, never seem to follow it.

Oh and Retnox 5.....God I'm so allergic to that crap.
 
I wish this whole "Star Trek was never meant to be a military organization" crap that Roddenberry really started pushing after he got kick out of the loop after TMP could go away.

It really couldn't be more obvious that starfleet is basically the United States Navy in space. The ship is named USS Enterprise, which was the most powerful warship in the world at the time of the show's premier and not associated with exploration. The vast amount of terminology and elements of the navy they carried over to the show plus the fact they always had heavy weapons and enemies to fight.

It really couldn't be anymore obvious the shows military ties. Sure it had a scientific and exploration element but Roddenberry knew a show where all they did was meet a new race every week wouldn't fly.......So it had military elements and conflict right from the start.

It was only after TMP when Meyer and Bennett emphasized the military element more that Roddenberry did this retcon BS about Starfleet being an organization of peace and discovery and was never meant to be military or confrontational. Something which many fans bought into when it was never true.

Meh this is not just against official canon, it's also not clear in the details.

Starfleet is a mix of Navy/US coast Guard/ humanitarian/UN/ Nasa.

Nasa and redcross of course have tonnes of reference to military, which makes it no surprise that the military presence is so strong.

However it's bloody clear it's not a true military vessel.

There's tonnes of examples where this idea is contradicted.

While it's true that Starfleet is a mix of all those bodies, Roddenberry drew inspiration from Horatio Hornblower, whose novels were definitely military themed. And Roddenberry himself served in the USAF, primarily in the Pacific which had a large US Navy presence. Simply put, both in fantasy and real world experience, he was surrounded by one Navy or another, and it's only natural that those experiences would manifest in his creations.
 
Time Travel. I think other comments have accurately described how I feel. Time to ditch this plot convenience device.
Holodeck stories are often a device to do what used to be time travel stories but giving it a different name. ENT ran time travel into the ground with the Temporal Cold War and Daniels.
 
NASA assumes that there aren't a bunch of militaristic, aggressive alien empires just beyond the frontier in space. But in the Trek universe, there *are*.

I don't imagine that the Phoenix was equipped with any weapons... humanity assumed that they were alone in the universe, but it turned out they weren't.

Maybe some purely scientific research vessels that only work safely within Federation boundaries don't need to be armed. But the Enterprise is supposed to be pushing out into the unknown on a regular basis.

Kor
 
NASA assumes that there aren't a bunch of militaristic, aggressive alien empires just beyond the frontier in space. But in the Trek universe, there *are*.

I don't imagine that the Phoenix was equipped with any weapons... humanity assumed that they were alone in the universe, but it turned out they weren't.

Maybe some purely scientific research vessels that only work safely within Federation boundaries don't need to be armed. But the Enterprise is supposed to be pushing out into the unknown on a regular basis.

Kor

NASA also doesn't have ranks like Admiral, it doesn't have uniforms, aside from spacesuits, it doesn't make subordinates call their superiors "sir", they don't have insignia on their clothes to denote their position, if you disobey an order you'll probably just get fired, you won't get thrown in the brig or brought up on charges and court martialed. NASA doesn't have an academy with cadets, people who work for NASA don't stand watch or have to be the officer of the deck. There isn't a "special forces" division, they don't put the prefix USS in front of their craft, they don't operate from "bases".......and so on and so on. Guess which kinds of organizations have all these things and many more that star fleet features????
 
What Star Trek 'baggage' would I lose?

Selective Star Trek fans who declare that one series, or set of movies is the 'real' Star Trek, and disparage fans who like another series or set of movies. Get over yourself.

Vulcans, Ferengi and Romulans, . They're just over-used ,and I hate big, fake rubber ears.

Enterprise destruction. - Come on, they lose the Enterprise more often than my younger brother gets his car repossessed.

Time Travel. I think other comments have accurately described how I feel. Time to ditch this plot convenience device.

The Enterprise destruction thing is dead on. When they did it in TSFS is was shocking and original. Then the A and B were both destroyed non canon the C and D bought it canon and I don't know about the E but they tried to destroy it in FC.....it's the unluckiest name in the fleet.

Time travel jumped the shark for me when at the end of FC Picard gave a casual order to match the temporal signature of their original jump back to return to the present. Like it was no big deal and they'd be home in time for dinner.
 
What Star Trek 'baggage' would I lose?

Selective Star Trek fans who declare that one series, or set of movies is the 'real' Star Trek, and disparage fans who like another series or set of movies. Get over yourself.

Vulcans, Ferengi and Romulans, . They're just over-used ,and I hate big, fake rubber ears.

Enterprise destruction. - Come on, they lose the Enterprise more often than my younger brother gets his car repossessed.

Time Travel. I think other comments have accurately described how I feel. Time to ditch this plot convenience device.

The Enterprise destruction thing is dead on. When they did it in TSFS is was shocking and original. Then the A and B were both destroyed non canon the C and D bought it canon and I don't know about the E but they tried to destroy it in FC.....it's the unluckiest name in the fleet.

Since I don't read the novels, I must have missed the destructions of the A and B.

I think some people here aren't fully understanding what "baggage" means. I've read a lot of comments about specific aliens, items or events that people would drop if they were retconning or rebooting Trek. This seems like not seeing the forest for the trees.

From my point of view, baggage is something big and large that Trek has been carrying around for quite some time. Baggage is something that can be dropped without rebooting Trek. I'm talking big, sweeping concepts or tropes that people think must be in Star Trek.

Technobabble was a good example someone through out a few pages ago. Time travel. Overly white/European/North American culture and characters. Overused aliens such as the Borg. Those are all good examples of baggage that have made Trek stale.

Rebooting is different than getting rid of baggage. We could have a brand new Star Trek series set in the Prime Universe that pays attention and doesn't retcon the past Treks and still lose a lot of baggage.
 
^In that spirit, I'd like to see Star Trek be Star Trek and not worry about catering to mass audiences. The general public regards the franchise as a show for nerds, which has never bothered me in the least because the characters featured in Star Trek are themselves high-functioning nerds. People don't get accepted to Starfleet Academy by partying all night long, nor do they get to command starships capable of pulverizing the surface of an entire planet.

If people can't deal with the fact that Star Trek touches on complicated subjects, then they should find something else with which to occupy their time.

--Sran
 
Straight-to-video productions then? No big budgets?

Not worrying about catering to mass audiences is probably what we have with fan productions. That's fine and some are quite good. But I suppose we have to be realistic about what pays for what unless we can pass tax law in favor of Star Trek funding. Oops! We don't have the votes.
 
^In that spirit, I'd like to see Star Trek be Star Trek and not worry about catering to mass audiences. The general public regards the franchise as a show for nerds, which has never bothered me in the least because the characters featured in Star Trek are themselves high-functioning nerds. People don't get accepted to Starfleet Academy by partying all night long, nor do they get to command starships capable of pulverizing the surface of an entire planet.

If people can't deal with the fact that Star Trek touches on complicated subjects, then they should find something else with which to occupy their time.

--Sran

Pretty sure Kirk partied all night long. He was the antinerd as a matter of fact. A ladies man who settled arguments with his fist.

Picard is who made Star Trek so nerdy. That guy was an ubernerd.
 
^ No, according to TOS, Kirk was considered "a stack of books with legs" at the Academy. In his class, "you either think or sink."

Kor
 
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