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Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Re: ESP : There might be at least some real life evidence for ESP or PSI. They did a weird experiment at a Grateful Dead concert that involved the crowd mentally sending images of paintings to two sleeping volunteers miles away.

There have been plenty of experiments that seemed to demonstrate remote viewing and other psi abilities, but they've usually been found to be the result of bad experimental design or deliberate fraud by the subjects being experimented on. The problem is that scientists are used to drawing conclusions from what they observe, so they can be fooled by deliberate illusion and misdirection. Which is why it took magicians like James Randi and others to explain the tricks and debunk the frauds.

Anyway, the essence of science is repeatability. One experiment isn't real evidence; it takes multiple experiments showing a consistent result, and it takes a theory that's based on those results and makes predictions that can be tested by further experiments. Not only has there not been consistent, reliable experimental data, but there's never really been a theory offered for just how psi powers would work if they existed, what their physical mechanisms and causes are.


With Deanna Troi, you'd have to believe she can sense a person's emotions in ship over a mile away-- over a view screen. Sure. :lol:

I always figured that was mainly just a heightened sensitivity to body language and microexpressions. There are some people, like people with autism, who are unable to read people's body language or tone of voice to discern their emotional state, and who therefore can't recognize things like sarcasm and take everything literally (basically like Data). Compared to them, people with typical emotional perceptiveness would be like empaths. So it follows that it could be possible to go in the other direction, to have people whose perceptiveness of others' emotions is so keen compared to the average human's that it seems almost psychic. Animals can do this to an extent; people often think their dogs or horses or whatever have psychic abilities, but they're really just better at reading body language and nonverbal cues than we are, not to mention able to smell our body chemistry immensely better than we can (though that wouldn't work over a viewscreen).

Indeed, I think that's a missed opportunity for science fiction. Instead of assuming that any sense beyond normal human perception is psychic or metaphysical, why not explore those other kinds of physical perception that can exist in nonhuman animals? Imagine, say, a species that can see in infrared. They could see your heart rate and blood flow and read your emotional state that way, making them essentially "empaths." (Who knows, maybe that's what Deanna's seeing on the viewscreen.)
 
Definitely more non humans than humans in Starfleet. One thing I liked about DS9 was the balance of humans to nonhuman characters in the show. If was about 50/50 on DS9. I would swing the balance more toward the alien with maybe two out of seven characters be human.
 
@ Christopher: True, the current offering of evidence doesn't really cut it, and what we do have is vague, not enough to be really convincing.

But, just for things to make you "hmmmmmm" anyway, here's one of the pictures that the concert goers were asked to mentally send to the sleeping volunteers:

2vnnjmd.jpg



This what the volunteer said he dreamed about:

I was very interested in using... natural energy.... I was talking to this guy who said he'd invented a way of using solar energy and he showed me this box... to catch the light from the sun which was all we needed to generate and store the energy.... (Snip for space) He was suspended in mid - air or something.... I was thinking about rocket ships.

And;

I’m remembering a dream I had... about an energy box and... a spinal column.

Telepathy was a fascinating sci fi concept for Trek when it was mysterious. But the 'invade your mind' shoot energy balls, things, went a bit too far.

And yet Star Wars did the same things, and made it cool. How ironic.
 
I remember, while re-reading one of the first Titan novels, one character observing that aboard Titan key personnel are still human despite the diversity among the crew. So it would be nice to see more non-human admirals, captains and execs. In fact, I´d like to see more Hermats or Tamarians for instance.

I'd like to see a series featuring a lead character who's not human. Every other series lead has been human, although several of the number-two characters (Spock, Data, Kira and T'Pol) weren't human (or weren't only human, in Spock's case).


Series featuring characters like Donatra (Dina Meyer) or Shran (Jeffrey Combs) would be interesting--not necessarily those characters, but characters like them played by talented actors.

Edit: Speaking of Romulans, I much preferred their TOS appearance as opposed to TNG and beyond (the forehead V-ridge). The Vulcans that traveled to Romulus would not have had enough time to develop the ridges, as only two-thousand years had passed by the time the Romulans became a player in galactic affairs. I know the writers wanted to avoid confusing the audience, but the inclusion of the ridge never made sense, IMO.

--Sran

They invented the Trill spots for Terry Farrel instead of the Trill ridges Odan had. They didn´t want Dax to look disfigured. I wish they would stop regarding females with ridges or bony foreheads as unattractive. On the other hand I got used to the Trill spots over time.
 
Various Trek baggage I'd like to the ST universe to be free of:

  • Pon far.
  • The Borg from First Contact and on ward.
  • "Star Trek: Voyager"
  • Wesley being "special" and having powers.
  • "Enterprise"
  • Hand phasers being used to their fullest extent.
 
Various Trek baggage I'd like to the ST universe to be free of:

  • Pon far.
  • The Borg from First Contact and on ward.
  • "Star Trek: Voyager"
  • Wesley being "special" and having powers.
  • "Enterprise"
  • Hand phasers being used to their fullest extent.

As Voyager fan I don´t want to go without.
The Borg appeared much too often and are dealt with in the novelverse.
I´m not one of the Wesley haters, but Wesley with powers doesn´t make him more likable.
I can live without Enterprise, but prefer it over nuTrek.
Hand phasers are preferable over projectile weapons. But I like a good story more than an overuse of phasers.
 
But, just for things to make you "hmmmmmm" anyway, here's one of the pictures that the concert goers were asked to mentally send to the sleeping volunteers:

2vnnjmd.jpg



This what the volunteer said he dreamed about:

I was very interested in using... natural energy.... I was talking to this guy who said he'd invented a way of using solar energy and he showed me this box... to catch the light from the sun which was all we needed to generate and store the energy.... (Snip for space) He was suspended in mid - air or something.... I was thinking about rocket ships.
And;

I’m remembering a dream I had... about an energy box and... a spinal column.

There's no meaningful resemblance between any of those. Sure, there are a couple of things you can pick out as being remotely similar if you want to pretend they're similar, but there's no basis for ruling out coincidence there. The only thing it proves is how easy it is for humans to imagine patterns that don't exist. We can always finesse the evidence to fit the patterns we want it to have; that's how we see faces in the clouds and mythological beasts in the stars. So good science requires guarding against that tendency to manufacture patterns, not feeding into it. A solid result has to be something that takes subjective interpretations and preconceptions out of the picture and holds up whether we want to believe it or not.

As Randall Munroe once said, "You don't use science to prove that you're right, you use science to become right." You don't start with the thing you want to prove and then try to cherrypick the data to convince people you were right. The way you do science is by trying to disprove the thing you're testing, and only treat it as plausible if you fail to disprove it, if you rule out all other alternative explanations. It's like trying to prove someone guilty in court -- you have to prove that there are no other reasonable explanations for the result. In this case, in a single experiment with no repetition and a very vague result, you can't rule out random chance.

This is what I mean about bad experimental design. Most experiments that seemed to show psychic powers were tainted by this same kind of wishful thinking, designed to reinforce what the testers wanted to believe rather than constructed with healthy skepticism and error-checking in mind. You don't get to cherrypick the few bits that support your desired conclusion and ignore all the other bits that don't. Science is about shaping your conclusions to fit the data, not the other way around.
 
I feel that the exclusion of "ancient" sports was a mistake. Why would sports like baseball be eliminated? It was a real treat to know that in the DS9 novels Cestus III had revived the sport.

I agree with complaints about the "humanoid" alien of the week with the weird forehead ridges. A better depiction of actual aliens would be quite welcome, and as Enterprise showed improved CGI allows for species like the Tholians to be depicted with relative ease.

I also agree with complaints about 2-dimensional space combat and the varying nonsensical issues with "sensors". The removal of the "percentage of shields" trope is one of my favorite tiny details in nuTrek.
 
Everything i say is bolded/underlined.
The simple fact that everyone lives in a show that is essentially communist shows this.

I keep hearing that, but nobody who actually understood what communism means could think that. Communism is not just a moneyless society. Communism is, in theory, an anarchic system in which the members of a society govern themselves and their neighbors on an individual level and own and manage all means of production themselves. (So-called "communist" nations are actually socialist dictatorships theoretically working to create an eventual stateless communist society, but they never actually achieve it, because the fatal flaw in Marxist theory is the faith that an all-powerful state could ever be trusted to work toward its own dissolution.) The Federation is a representative democracy with a president, a council, commissioners, a fully functioning government of the sort that would not exist in a truly communist state.
Meh it's all debatable but I think you get the point of what I'm getting on with. The structure of everything in the show resembles much of the communist state.

Your fatal flaw you mentioned is quite logical if you ignore computers and the influence of vulcan society on our own.

The federation is far less corrupt than modern society.

And the big point is everything is tied together.


Also, it wasn't until TNG that the idea of a moneyless Federation was embraced. TOS was full of references to money and capitalism, and though The Voyage Home introduced the "no money in the 23rd century" idea, it probably just meant no paper money for leaving tips at restaurants. So there was nothing remotely "communist" about the original series.

I mean, come on, think about it. The idea that any television series on a commercial television network in the United States in the 1960s or 1980s, both eras in which the Cold War was rather heated, would be able to get away with advocating a communist society is preposterous. On TV shows in both eras, the Commies were always the bad guys.
And right here is why people talk of the no money issue.

Federation society is an advanced/very advanced form of communism.

Obviously the USSR wasn't a pure communist state, and nore is the federation they diverge in very different directions.

However make no mistake American's are very intolerant of anything communist.

By the way, here's the Star Trek Script Search results page for the word "communist" in transcripts of all six series and all ten original-universe movies. The only times it was used were in TOS: "The Omega Glory" in reference to the Kohms (who were the villains of the episode) and in ENT: "Storm Front" to refer to the altered history in which Lenin was assassinated in 1916 and Russia never became communist. There are zero hits for "communism" or "socialism" in any Trek series or movie, and the only hit for "socialist" is in the phrase "National Socialist Party" in TOS: "Patterns of Force" (again, the bad guys -- although the Nazis were neither nationalist nor socialist, they just used those labels because they were popular ideas in Germany at the time).
Except for the no money, lack of class conflict, 100's of cases where it's illustrated that they have a command economy, etc etc

Racially is a different story, however if the series was produced in japan/india/nigeria I wouldn't except to cast a whole bunch of foreigners just to maintain a racial quota.

Nonwhite does not equal "foreigner." Indeed, the population of Los Angeles is only 41% white, and only 29% non-Hispanic white. So real-life actor demographics don't justify the majority-white casts of the Trek shows. Especially considering how many Trek regulars did come from other countries -- Patrick Stewart, Marina Sirtis, Colm Meaney, Alexander Siddig, Dominic Keating, Karl Urban, Simon Pegg, John Cho (born in South Korea), Anton Yelchin (born in Russia). Plus William Shatner and James Doohan, both from Canada.

This is a more complicated problem. LA has an actor class and one outside of it. Not to mention the demographics of the usa.

Most series have their racial diversity covered to reflect american demographics.Keep in mind it was one of the first to include asian characters in this.


I'm gonna respond to everything you said with bold writing.
 
There's a ton of baggage I'd like to see discarded if Trek were rebooted from scratch, all the stuff rooted in the '60s origins of the show and the earlier pulps that influenced it.

If you change it to that extent you might as well call it something different because it won't feel like Trek anymore. Trek as a brand shouldn't just mean "space exploration". It's got to have more specificity than that which would carry through a reboot.
 
I've sometimes thought that if I could reinvent Trek totally from scratch and make it my own, I'd make Captain Kirk an Asian woman. ...Who would still be a womanizer. :D

Ticking boxes on diversity is what I'd like to see gone from Trek. The main objective of any writer should be to tell a compelling story, not to buck social norms for the sake novelty or PC value. It doesn't mean diversity is bad, but I don't find this kind of thing entertaining on its own. Some people who look to their entertainment as a vehicle of social change might feel differently.
 
What Star Trek 'baggage' would I lose?

Selective Star Trek fans who declare that one series, or set of movies is the 'real' Star Trek, and disparage fans who like another series or set of movies. Get over yourself.

Vulcans, Ferengi and Romulans, . They're just over-used ,and I hate big, fake rubber ears.

Enterprise destruction. - Come on, they lose the Enterprise more often than my younger brother gets his car repossessed.

Time Travel. I think other comments have accurately described how I feel. Time to ditch this plot convenience device.
 
The main objective of any writer should be to tell a compelling story, not to buck social norms for the sake novelty or PC value.
Except depicting a society in which the majority of the people in positions of power are male, and usually white is a version of "correctness." Instead just have a acurate slice of the real world.

:)
 
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Since the reboot was already mentioned, I'd bring up something that it *did* unload, which was pointless, extraneous, verbose technobabble, the type that was the hallmark of 90s Trek in general. Yeah, some technobabble is unavoidable and/or adds to the tech feel, but I feel like the JJ movies, like TOS, kept it to a bare minimum to keep the story passable.

Generations to me is one of the worst culprits. Here we have a tense, action packed battle with great music, and the pacing abruptly slows down so that Riker, Data, and Worf can talk about specs. I shake my head whenever I see Data yelling out, "Initiating ionic pulse!" to which Riker barks out ironically, "MakeItQuick!"
 
They invented the Trill spots for Terry Farrel instead of the Trill ridges Odan had. They didn´t want Dax to look disfigured. I wish they would stop regarding females with ridges or bony foreheads as unattractive. On the other hand I got used to the Trill spots over time.
^ Actually it was because Terry was allergic to the original Trill makeup.
The original story behind Terry's spots was it was an adaptation of the look Famke Janssen had in "The Perfect Mate", because Michael Westmore thought she was too good looking to wear a Trill appliance. She did have sensitive skin though, and had to avoid direct sunlight.
 
Meh it's all debatable but I think you get the point of what I'm getting on with. The structure of everything in the show resembles much of the communist state.

No, it doesn't, not even slightly. I don't know where you're getting that. The structure of what we usually see in the show is that of a military organization, not a civilian population. I'm not sure what you mean by "communist state" -- it's actually a contradiction in terms, since a communist society is stateless -- but if you're referring to the authoritarianism of states ruled by so-called Communist parties (which, as I said, are theoretically working toward the creation of communist societies but have never actually succeeded at it), then that's a function of the fact that we're seeing stories about military personnel operating under a command structure, which is a different matter altogether. Beyond that, I can't imagine what you're referring to, since you're just asserting it without actually defining your terms.


And right here is why people talk of the no money issue.

Federation society is an advanced/very advanced form of communism.

No. "Communism" does not just mean "no money." That's completely wrong. Yes, in theory, one aspect of an ideal communist society, per Marxist theory, is that all commerce would be direct trade between individuals and money would be rendered superfluous, but that's only one out of many attributes. Saying that the Federation is communist because of the single property that it lacks money is like saying that a Welsh Corgi is a brontosaurus because of the single property that it has four legs, or that a ping-pong ball is the Sun because of the single property that it's round.


However make no mistake American's are very intolerant of anything communist.

Yes. Now you're making my point for me. If you recognize that, you should see how completely nonsensical it is to think that any American-made TV show would be presenting a communist society. I don't know how you can hold two such contradictory notions and think they make sense together.


Except for the no money, lack of class conflict, 100's of cases where it's illustrated that they have a command economy, etc etc

Any ideal society will lack class conflict, because class conflict is stupid and unfair. Marx doesn't have a monopoly on that idea.

And again you're making assertions without support. "Command economy?" Where are you getting that? I think you're again confusing the military structure of Starfleet for the broader society it serves.

Besides, in the 24th century they have a replicator-based economy. They can manufacture anything they want on request. Communism is an economic theory based on the assumption of scarcity and the need for labor to manufacture goods. It's incompatible with a post-scarcity, replicator-based economy. That would require an entirely new theory, neither capitalism nor communism. Economic theories aren't immutable laws of physics. They're just ideas that some people made up and tried out. Both modern capitalism and communism were invented in the 19th century. Neither one of them was around 3 or 4 centuries ago. So why assume either one would be around 3 or 4 centuries from now? They'll probably both have been replaced by new economic theories.


If you change it to that extent you might as well call it something different because it won't feel like Trek anymore. Trek as a brand shouldn't just mean "space exploration". It's got to have more specificity than that which would carry through a reboot.

Not at all. What makes it Star Trek isn't the psi powers or the forehead aliens or any of that. It's the characters and the spirit and the philosophy. A humanist, inclusionist philosophy that would be better lived up to by a more diverse cast and a more diverse range of alien designs.

Besides, Roddenberry always wanted Star Trek to be plausible. He consulted with scientists and engineers and think tanks to build the most credible future ever seen on television up to that point. He often fell short in the execution, sometimes for budgetary or logistical reasons (the implausible Earth-duplicate worlds were purely about making the show affordable to shoot, and there were so many stories about psi powers because it's cheap to film actors pantomiming mind control and the like) and sometimes for creative license (e.g. on the principle that a star name like Rigel or Deneb would be more familiar to audiences than, say, HD 23546); but with each subsequent production he was in charge of (TMP, early TNG), he tried to improve the credibility and correct past mistakes and build a more realistic version of the future. But a lot of the assumptions he built it on back in the '60s and the '80s are outdated now. If he were alive and at his creative peak today, he'd be the first person trying to reinvent Star Trek to fit more modern, up-to-date understandings of science, while still embodying the same approach to characterization and action and philosophy.

So no, I'm not proposing changing it into something other than Star Trek. I'm proposing being true to the spirit of Star Trek that Roddenberry always intended but that it's drifted away from under other creators and over the passage of time. He wanted it to be cutting-edge and based on the most current ideas, not an exercise in '60s nostalgia.


Ticking boxes on diversity is what I'd like to see gone from Trek. The main objective of any writer should be to tell a compelling story, not to buck social norms for the sake novelty or PC value.

You're getting it backwards. Diversity is the natural state of the human race. More than half of humanity is Asian; less than a fifth of it is white. In an honest, balanced portrayal of the human race, diversity will happen automatically, because it's simply the truth of the world. You have to make a conscious effort to avoid diversity, to cling to the artificial, fabricated image of a world dominated by white heterosexual males. That's the political statement, that active denial of the reality of diversity.

Just look at the current Hugo nomination controversy. The ones bringing politics into it are the ones protesting diversity and pushing for a slate friendly to a conservative, traditional, white-dominated portrayal. Whereas the more inclusive works of fiction in this and earlier years didn't get there because of an active political campaign; they just happened to be written and published and enjoyed by the readers. Diversity is increasingly becoming the norm, the natural and unaffected state of affairs. Many of America's major cities, like New York, LA, and San Francisco, are white-minority now. So it's the people resisting diversity, those continuing to make stories and movies dominated by white people, who are trying to fill artificial quotas. The rest of us are just acknowledging reality.
 
I wish this whole "Star Trek was never meant to be a military organization" crap that Roddenberry really started pushing after he got kick out of the loop after TMP could go away.

It really couldn't be more obvious that starfleet is basically the United States Navy in space. The ship is named USS Enterprise, which was the most powerful warship in the world at the time of the show's premier and not associated with exploration. The vast amount of terminology and elements of the navy they carried over to the show plus the fact they always had heavy weapons and enemies to fight.

It really couldn't be anymore obvious the shows military ties. Sure it had a scientific and exploration element but Roddenberry knew a show where all they did was meet a new race every week wouldn't fly.......So it had military elements and conflict right from the start.

It was only after TMP when Meyer and Bennett emphasized the military element more that Roddenberry did this retcon BS about Starfleet being an organization of peace and discovery and was never meant to be military or confrontational. Something which many fans bought into when it was never true.
 
I'd like to leave behind the baggage of the death by fire of Picard's family and Kirk's death under a metal scaffold, both examples of a writer pissing on the franchise with a character snuff (character assassination?) to leave his smelly mark on it as if a dog to a tree or fire hydrant: death, the last resort of an unimaginative writer or ratings grab.
 
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