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Is Tuvix a real person?

Was Tuvix a real person


  • Total voters
    39
Did you notice that Tom and Will, their beards grew differently?

Or they minutely styled their beards differently.

I was way to old before I realized that beard maintenance was a thing.

"trimming"
Yeah, I remember a conversation with a girl once who was all like, "So, now you've got a beard, you don't need to spend as much time in the bathroom in the morning, because you don't need to shave anymore, right?" :guffaw:

(If anything, my experiences have shown me that beard maintenance is even more time consuming than simply shaving every morning. Because beard hair just grows everywhere, so if you don't wanna look like Grizzly, then you're still gonna need to spend a lot of time grooming and trimming the beard. Even when you've got a beard, you've still got to deal with five o'clock shadow on the bits of your face that aren't bearded.)

Riker kept quite a carefully styled beard. The longest he ever had it (aside from that one time in a Borg-infested alternative universe ;) ) was in season two's "The Child", the first episode in which he is bearded, where he had quite an extensive neck beard also (this was trimmed down in the following episodes). I've found it does take a bit of effort to have a Riker-style beard, because it means having to basically shave the cheeks right down, as well as the neckline beneath, while keeping as much as possible in-between.
 
I'm not fond of Riker beards and not just because, Riker.*

I think in Star Trek times they just shove their face into the sonic shaver, press the facial hair shape of choice and bam, done.


*some people rock them though
 
Deanna could have spoken up for her Imzadi and finally had a decent explanation for why this thing, this mockery pretending to be Will Riker all these years had never grabbed her ass or tried to drag her into a closet for seven minutes of heaven.

Seven minutes of Haven, if you please :p.
 
According to that legal precedent Tuvix it would appear that he has the right to choose to explore that question himself.

I get what you're saying but that is based more on the perspective of Janeway not having made the decision to separate Tuvix yet. If we base it on that, then isn't everyone complicit in the murder. They all just stood there and looked down at their shoes as it was happening. Shouldn't the entire crew be convicted

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of...."would she be convicted for murder AFTER the decision has been made"

Based on the criteria and lack of evidence already mentioned, I think she'd probably get away with it (if it is murder then in many ways, it's the perfect murder because the person you killed still exists.......even Columbo would struggle to crack that case)

Falling to act isn't a crime, however if they were ordered to do it as the Doctor was, they could have refused to carry out the order just like the Doctor did.

And in what way does he exist, certainly the unique personality that was Tuvix doesn't exist anymore. Nor does the unique physical body exist. And there is plenty of evidence in the computer records unless Janeway purged those as well.
 
Falling to act isn't a crime, however if they were ordered to do it as the Doctor was, they could have refused to carry out the order just like the Doctor did.

But separating two people fused together is also not a crime (as far as I'm aware). The uncertainty comes from that acts secondary effect of ending the (as yet unconfirmed) uniqueness of Tuvix's consciousness

And in what way does he exist, certainly the unique personality that was Tuvix doesn't exist anymore. Nor does the unique physical body exist. And there is plenty of evidence in the computer records unless Janeway purged those as well.

His physical matter still exists (none of it has been destroyed) so again we return to the concept of his consciousness coming from somewhere other than Tuvok and Neelix. You would first have to argue that consciousness comes from some non-physical plane of existence before you could argue that it has been destroyed

It's really the only evidence against Janeway but how would you prove that Tuvix's consciousness truly was unique and not just a by-product of two established consciousnesses being fused together
 
According to that legal precedent Tuvix it would appear that he has the right to choose to explore that question himself.

I get what you're saying but that is based more on the perspective of Janeway not having made the decision to separate Tuvix yet. If we base it on that, then isn't everyone complicit in the murder. They all just stood there and looked down at their shoes as it was happening. Shouldn't the entire crew be convicted

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of...."would she be convicted for murder AFTER the decision has been made"

Based on the criteria and lack of evidence already mentioned, I think she'd probably get away with it (if it is murder then in many ways, it's the perfect murder because the person you killed still exists.......even Columbo would struggle to crack that case)

Falling to act isn't a crime, however if they were ordered to do it as the Doctor was, they could have refused to carry out the order just like the Doctor did.

And in what way does he exist, certainly the unique personality that was Tuvix doesn't exist anymore. Nor does the unique physical body exist. And there is plenty of evidence in the computer records unless Janeway purged those as well.

Last Seinfeld Ever
 
If Tuvix had been allowed to live, Janeway would have killed two people.
By restoring the lives of Tuvok and Neelix, she only killed one.

I guess that's a win.
 
4.

Have you ever considered, that it wasn't the Vulcan sex drive forcing Tuvix to take Kes to pound town, but the Ocampan desire to self pleasure?

That one lung turned him into a sex fiend?

Kes was afraid most of her own sexuality!

( ... And the Sentient Syphilis makes 4.)
 
OP,

You've talked a lot about Janeway just separating Tuvix into his components and that that separation is not significant, although you concede that the separation destroyed his unique consciousness; let's test that with a hypothetical:

I come over to your house and shot your head off with a shotgun, then bury your body in a compost pile. Can I defend my actions saying that I didn't kill you because, as you said, your "physical matter still exists (none of it has been destroyed)"?
 
I come over to your house and shot your head off with a shotgun, then bury your body in a compost pile. Can I defend my actions saying that I didn't kill you because, as you said, your "physical matter still exists (none of it has been destroyed)"?

Hmm, that's an interesting idea

Well first of all, I wouldn't let you in

Secondly, I would argue that my physical matter wouldn't exist in it's entirety. The shot to my head for a start would destroy brain matter and the corpse would rot away.

But more importantly, you could theoretically restore Tuvix by splicing Tuvok and Neelix back together again (proving he is not dead) but you couldn't restore my consciousness after a gun shot and decomposition. That would give Tuvix's apparent murder a philosophical uncertainty

Should Janeway be put on trial, the best method for proving her innocence would be to simply recreate Tuvix in a transporter and say, look he's not dead. You couldn't do that with me

This would require having the orchid which I assume they did because it was an interesting plant worth studying
 
Tuvix's sentience is not the issue here. In season 5, episode 1, Janeway said the following:

"Four years ago I destroyed the Caretaker’s array to protect the Ocampa. That act of compassion stranded this crew in the Delta Quadrant. I’m not about the give that order again."

Janeway feels a personal responsibility for stranding her crew, so they are the most important thing to her. In this situation, we can relate Tuvix to the Ocampa. They are both sentient, yes, and in the beginning of Voyager's journey, Janeway might have never considered killing Tuvix to save Tuvok and Neelix. However, this feeling that Janeway expresses in Season 5 is obviously something that has lived long inside her; she feels she has a debt to Tuvok. Tuvix is no one to her but an obstacle that stands between her and her duty to the crew she feels she stranded. I did not always understand Janeways decisions (especially the one that ended up with her leaving the crew's DNA on the demon planet), but I feel this one is explained better if you look at the whole picture as opposed to the individual episode in which Tuvix existed.

Her act of compassion toward Tuvix would have "stranded" Tuvok inside this new being; it would have left his wife without a husband and his son without a father. She knew she couldn't let her natural compassion take over here, and I believe her course of action was simply the best for everyone on the crew.
 
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Secondly, I would argue that my physical matter wouldn't exist in it's entirety. The shot to my head for a start would destroy brain matter and the corpse would rot away.

But your matter does still exist. It is just in different configurations: the mess on the wall, the microbes breaking down thd body. Just like Tuvix's matter still exists in different configurations: Tuvok and Neelix.
 
But your matter does still exist. It is just in different configurations: the mess on the wall, the microbes breaking down thd body. Just like Tuvix's matter still exists in different configurations: Tuvok and Neelix.

But it wouldn't exist as living matter anymore and therefore you couldn't restore me. Tuvix continues to exist as living matter which could theoretically be restored at any moment. This makes a huge philosophical difference

Janeway could ultimately prove her innocence by recreating the accident and producing Tuvix.

Janeway: "Look, he's still alive judge"
Judge: "Yup, not guilty, separate him again, you've proved your point"
Juror No4: "but if you separate him gain, that's murder!!"
Janeway: "Oh fuck off"

I suppose it's possible that should they recreate the accident, they might end up with some guy called Neevok who has a slightly different personality (but presumably an equally annoying one) but even that wouldn't prove she murdered Tuvix because what if you try again and you did produce Tuvix

And even if she did it ten times and you kept getting slightly different variations on the Tuvok/Neelix theme, you still wouldn't be able to say with certainly that Tuvix is gone for good. Maybe on try 46, he'll finally show up
 
I started this thread believing that Tuvix was a unique sentient life form but that Janeway had not murdered him since nothing of him had been destroyed.

I've now changed my mind. Tuvix was never a unique sentient life form at all. Sentient yes but not true unique sentience. His sentience is entirely built on the genuinely unique sentience of both Tuvok and Neelix. It is combination of minds battling to make sense of the world and Tuvix is the manifestation of that battle

Those who claim Tuvix was uniquely sentient are unwittingly suggesting that sentience comes from a location other than the physical. They are suggesting that his sentience is not dependant upon the physicality of Tuvok and Neelix. This is clearly nonsense. Tuvix cannot exist without stealing life from both Tuvok and Neelix but Tuvok and Neelix can exist without requiring anything of Tuvix

His sentience was a trick of the light. Not unique at all but simply two personalities trying to make sense of the world and their emotions.

Plus, Janeway did not force Tuvix to be separated. At the very end he accepts it. No kicking, no screaming, just fear

And that's the point of his desire to live (which is often used as proof of his uniqueness) It's based on fear, not on proven unique sentience. Tuvok had access to the emotions of Neelix and Neelix had access to Tuvoks sense of logic.

They provided each other with an opportunity to experience something they had never had before. Something they both secretly enjoyed. There was a fear it would end, there was a fear it could go wrong. There was fear. That fear manifested itself in Tuvix as a desire to live

But had Tuvix truly had a desire to live, he would have stolen a phaser, punched Janeway, tried to run, kicked and screamed at every available opportunity, clawed at life in every way he could.......but he didn't. After an initial plea and appeal based on fear, Tuvok and Neelix then calm down and this consequently results in Tuvix finally accepting the separation.

Would a truly sentient life form accept death like that?
 
Neat. This would explain Obi-Wan Kenobi as well!

So I guess this means that Tuvix, rather than being a really crappy chimera that looks like some third grader's diorama fail was actually a SUPER being.

He went to his fate peacefully because he knew he would become a thread ghost and live forever in this forum, amen.
 
Unique isn't really important.

The Starfleet Creedo is that they must sacrifice themselves to save even the most unexceptional civilians at the cost of their very lives if necessary as soon as the situation presents itself.

Besides, how different was Tuvix as a species from a standard hybrid issued from a mating between Neelix and that Girl Vulcan seen wandering around.



(She was in VOY Repression.)
 
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