Marvel/Netflix Daredevil Season 1

[Alidar Jarok]

Which reminds me, who else thinks that when the cops busted Fisk, that they should have also arrested Vanessa? She obviously knew who and what Wilson Fisk was and what he was doing. Shouldn't she at least have been questioned? Isn't there at least enough to suspect collusion? Conspiracy? Anything?

Vanessa may be guilty of something. It's hard to say. I can't recall any overt participation. The question is whether she ever aided or encouraged a specific crime. Most of the time she found out what he was doing after and then said "good," but I do recall her saying "make him pay" at some point, which seemed prospective. So maybe Conspiracy or Accomplice liability. I'm not all that knowledgeable about RICO.

But that's entirely different than your question, which was whether Vanessa should have been arrested. That depends on whether they had enough evidence to justify an arrest. I don't recall them actually having any evidence against her, so I don't think they had grounds to arrest.

And in his first issue as writer of Daredevil (he had been co-plotter with McKenzie), which was also his first solo writing credit ever, he introduced Elektra, perhaps his most iconic creation.

So the second half of that book is written and drawn by Miller.

Assuming that this is the same edition that I own the print edition of, only the last five issues of Vol. 1 (168-172) are written solely by Miller.

The second and third books are completely by Miller.

Well, written by Miller, anyway. There should also be a GN drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz in Vol.3, and "Born Again" was was drawn by David Mazzucchelli.

Yeah, 158-167 is drawn by Miller but not written by him, while 168-172 is drawn by him (so are the two Spectacular Spider-Man issues). So 9 issues are not, 6 are. Not exactly half, as I was thinking. Book 2 has weird credits: Art by Miller, finished art by Janson. Odd breakdown compared to penciler and inker like I'm used to, but I think it means the same thing (Janson did a lot of polishing as inker, as Miller usually agrees). In 185, Janson seemed to take over penciling duties too.

We have the same first two books, but I got the older version of Volume 3 by mistake, which doesn't have the Daredevil Love and War story, unfortunately. I guess it's good to be precise, although I still think he deserves a lot of credit for his art too.

Which, JD, if you're really digging into "Daredevil", you must also read "Born Again", perhaps Miller's best writing effort on the character. Was that one of your purchases?

I echo this whole-heartedly.

 

[Christopher]

Vanessa may be guilty of something. It's hard to say. I can't recall any overt participation. The question is whether she ever aided or encouraged a specific crime. Most of the time she found out what he was doing after and then said "good," but I do recall her saying "make him pay" at some point, which seemed prospective. So maybe Conspiracy or Accomplice liability. I'm not all that knowledgeable about RICO.

I don't think just saying "make him pay" would count as actually participating in the planning or execution of the crime. He would've done it anyway; she just expressed her approval of that choice. Also, under New York law, most people don't have a duty to report crimes, unless they belong to certain categories; for instance, teachers and medical professionals are mandatory reporters for suspected child abuse, and it's a misdemeanor for telecommunications employees to fail to report criminal communications.

 

[The Old Mixer]

In the traditional Marvel system, pencillers do most of the work of actually telling the story anyway...Miller being the penciller but not the writer means that he didn't write the dialogue, but a lot of what was going on in those issues probably came from his brain.

 

[Christopher]

Well, the Marvel method is that the writer comes up with the broad beats of the plot, then the penciller decides how to depict it (often adding or changing a good deal), and then the writer comes up with dialogue to fit the art. So it depends on things like how detailed the initial plot outline is and how closely the penciller follows it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Vanessa may be guilty of something. It's hard to say. I can't recall any overt participation. The question is whether she ever aided or encouraged a specific crime. Most of the time she found out what he was doing after and then said "good," but I do recall her saying "make him pay" at some point, which seemed prospective. So maybe Conspiracy or Accomplice liability. I'm not all that knowledgeable about RICO.

I don't think just saying "make him pay" would count as actually participating in the planning or execution of the crime. He would've done it anyway; she just expressed her approval of that choice. Also, under New York law, most people don't have a duty to report crimes, unless they belong to certain categories; for instance, teachers and medical professionals are mandatory reporters for suspected child abuse, and it's a misdemeanor for telecommunications employees to fail to report criminal communications.

Accomplice Liability

When one person engages in conduct which constitutes an offense, another person is criminally liable for such conduct when, acting with the mental culpability required for the commission thereof, he solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or intentionally aids such person to engage in such conduct.

 

[Christopher]

^But as I said, Fisk had already decided to commit the crime, and would've done so with or without Vanessa's approval. So she didn't solicit it, she just said she was okay with it. And just saying "go get 'em" doesn't constitute aiding either, since she did nothing to arrange for the crime to be possible or to participate in it. The statute is more about, say, if someone hires a hitman, or knowingly drives a bank robber to the bank, or trains their foster children to become pickpockets, or something like that.

 

[fireproof78]

I did like his storyline but I think he wasn't enough of a badass and too much of an angry child. He's a bit of a softy at times. I'd rather they save his romance story for the second season and just have him as an unstoppable man in season 1. A kingpin.
Like this

I was expecting the more cartoon version of the Kingpin as well, since that is what I had grown up with and was unfamiliar with any other versions, such as in the comics.

As the show went on, I really appreciated the tragedy of the character. I didn't like it at first, but there was a definite realness to the character, the difficulty of his background, his vision for Hell's Kitchen and his take no prisoners attitude.

I agree that he was softer, but I think that will change as he grows in to the criminal mastermind that we expect him to be.

Obviously, the reaction will vary from person to person, but I found the revelation of his history to be a very interesting background, as well as his desire to remake a city. His anger at Daredevil at the end shows his change from more benevolent vision to one of anger and vengeance.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

^But as I said, Fisk had already decided to commit the crime, and would've done so with or without Vanessa's approval. So she didn't solicit it, she just said she was okay with it. And just saying "go get 'em" doesn't constitute aiding either, since she did nothing to arrange for the crime to be possible or to participate in it. The statute is more about, say, if someone hires a hitman, or knowingly drives a bank robber to the bank, or trains their foster children to become pickpockets, or something like that.

Well, the common law rule is aids, abets, or encourages. That includes solicitation to commit a crime, but solicitation is usually a separate crime (asking to hire a hitman is solicitation, hiring the hitman is conspiracy, and, if the hitman carries it out, you're an accessory before the fact). But it means more than that. Standing as a lookout is a clear example of aiding. But encouraging alone is enough. If you're with someone and you're egging them on to do it, that's enough as long as you want them to accomplish the same criminal act.

Like I said, I didn't think there was enough evidence known to the police to justify probable cause to arrest. Even with our superior knowledge, I think it's a close case. She never actively participated in the criminal conspiracy, but she certainly was aware of it and encouraged him to stay a part of it.

 

[Christopher]

I agree that he was softer, but I think that will change as he grows in to the criminal mastermind that we expect him to be.

I wouldn't call him soft. This is a guy who decapitated someone with a car door. He's vicious and brutal, but like many bullies and brutes, he's weak and afraid at the core. He's what his abusive father made him, a victim of that legacy, however much he imagines himself to mean well. Basically he was in an abusive relationship with Hell's Kitchen, hurting it while claiming he was doing it out of love.

Obviously, the reaction will vary from person to person, but I found the revelation of his history to be a very interesting background, as well as his desire to remake a city. His anger at Daredevil at the end shows his change from more benevolent vision to one of anger and vengeance.

I don't think his vision was really that benevolent, except in his own mind. He wanted to "save" HK by tearing it down and gentrifying it -- i.e. basically what's actually happened to it in reality, but via more corrupt and criminal means (I would hope). Again, he was like an abusive husband, trying to force his wife to become what he wanted her to be. It's interesting, in light of that analogy and in light of his childhood, that he only directed that abusiveness against the city and not against Vanessa. Though I wonder if that would have changed over time.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree that he was softer, but I think that will change as he grows in to the criminal mastermind that we expect him to be.

I wouldn't call him soft. This is a guy who decapitated someone with a car door. He's vicious and brutal, but like many bullies and brutes, he's weak and afraid at the core. He's what his abusive father made him, a victim of that legacy, however much he imagines himself to mean well. Basically he was in an abusive relationship with Hell's Kitchen, hurting it while claiming he was doing it out of love.

Obviously, the reaction will vary from person to person, but I found the revelation of his history to be a very interesting background, as well as his desire to remake a city. His anger at Daredevil at the end shows his change from more benevolent vision to one of anger and vengeance.

I don't think his vision was really that benevolent, except in his own mind. He wanted to "save" HK by tearing it down and gentrifying it -- i.e. basically what's actually happened to it in reality, but via more corrupt and criminal means (I would hope). Again, he was like an abusive husband, trying to force his wife to become what he wanted her to be. It's interesting, in light of that analogy and in light of his childhood, that he only directed that abusiveness against the city and not against Vanessa. Though I wonder if that would have changed over time.

I agree. Perhaps the term "soft" was incorrect. I certainly know he was a bully, and a harsh and cruel man, but there was an obvious insecurity to him that I found interesting.

I think Fisk is the hero is his own story, as you describe. I don't think he was benevolent in his action but, to him, he was remaking HK for its own good. Again, a very abusive relationship, but I'm looking at it from his point of view.

I think I use the term "soft" to describe his more criminal activities. Obviously, we saw him at the beginning, as he was pulling together his empire, and that's the difference I saw from previous incarnations. He isn't fully in control of the criminal elements as, say the cartoon.

Regardless, I love the different take on Fisk, that his story is more tragic and, in my opinion, far more interesting than say the cartoon or movie. Also, Vincent D'onofrio's portrayal is one of the best in the series.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah. There were moments I felt that D'Onofrio was only about half the size the Kingpin should be, but I wouldn't want him to endanger his health by putting on 200 pounds for the role. And there were moments, at least when the focus was on his face rather than the rest of him, that he looked uncannily like the comics' Fisk. Mainly when he was being brutal and murderous. It really was a fine piece of casting and it'll go down as one of the great roles of his career.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

If they wanted to make him look like comics Fisk it would have been relatively easy and it wouldnt have required D'Onofrio to gain weight.
Fatsuits can be made to look pretty realist, especially when wearing a big suit all the time, and they could have used some simple cgi-trickery or stand-ins when characters are standing next to each other to make Fisk look bigger. But they obviously wanted to make Fisk more realistic. And it worked great.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, even without being built like a sumo wrestler, D'Onofrio is still a big, imposing man, and he was terrifying in his rages. Accounting for the tendency of comics to exaggerate visuals, it worked great.

 

[Thestral]

They didn't really use the radar sense. Instead, they came up with a very interesting alternative explanation, as Matt spelled out to Clare in episode 4 or 5 -- about how his brain takes the various inputs of his multiple senses (including the senses we don't often recognize beyond the big five) and created a composite that he perceived as a "world on fire." And we did get a brief shot of it at that point.

Er, that is the radar sense.

(Like the priest's monologue about how the idea of Satan as an individual rather than just a generic word for "adversary" was the invention of medieval theologians. Was that true? That was fascinating.)

Basically accurate yes. The "satan" was a general term for "adversary" in Hebrew scripture. There was a divine being sometimes identified who served as the "prosecuting attorney" in the Heavenly Court to prove humans as unworthy - see the book of Job for the most famous example - but who was clearly still working with God and on God's "side."

The more dualistic, "fallen angel, enemy of God and all creation" predates medieval theologians and may have been heavily influenced by contact with Zoroastrianism during the Jewish subservience to the Persian Empire. Though it was obviously heavily played up by said medieval theologians.

 

[Christopher]

They didn't really use the radar sense. Instead, they came up with a very interesting alternative explanation, as Matt spelled out to Clare in episode 4 or 5 -- about how his brain takes the various inputs of his multiple senses (including the senses we don't often recognize beyond the big five) and created a composite that he perceived as a "world on fire." And we did get a brief shot of it at that point.

Er, that is the radar sense.

I'd had the impression that the radar sense was some kind of separate "sixth sense" that was created by the radiation. The movie portrayed it as some kind of waves being sent out and reflecting back, like echolocation. I'm not so clear on the specifics of how the comics have explained it, though I'm sure it's varied over the decades.

(Like the priest's monologue about how the idea of Satan as an individual rather than just a generic word for "adversary" was the invention of medieval theologians. Was that true? That was fascinating.)

Basically accurate yes. The "satan" was a general term for "adversary" in Hebrew scripture. There was a divine being sometimes identified who served as the "prosecuting attorney" in the Heavenly Court to prove humans as unworthy - see the book of Job for the most famous example - but who was clearly still working with God and on God's "side."

The more dualistic, "fallen angel, enemy of God and all creation" predates medieval theologians and may have been heavily influenced by contact with Zoroastrianism during the Jewish subservience to the Persian Empire. Though it was obviously heavily played up by said medieval theologians.

Yeah, that's basically the impression I've gotten from looking into it. The idea of Satan as a specific archenemy of God dates as far back as the Book of Revelation, which describes Satan as "the great dragon." Which makes me wonder why the red-horned pitchfork guy became the default image of Satan in medieval lore, since a dragon would be so much more metal. Err, I mean, scary.

 

[Thestral]

Well, further back than Revelation since it was the last writing in (most) canons. Even just in Christian writings the Gospels and some of Paul's letters reference such a figure.

The red-horned pitchfork guy is an amalgamation of different "scary" cultural markers I expect. For example one common influence I've seen cited is the "Horned God" of Celtic pantheons that became a "boogeyman" as the Church expanded. Think King Arthur with his shining platemail and late middle ages castle or Mel Gibson's William Wallace in woad.



Could just be different impressions, yeah.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'd had the impression that the radar sense was some kind of separate "sixth sense" that was created by the radiation. The movie portrayed it as some kind of waves being sent out and reflecting back, like echolocation. I'm not so clear on the specifics of how the comics have explained it, though I'm sure it's varied over the decades.

It's varied in every different direction and than back again.

It was originally described as a sixth sense, but a limited one that only alerted that you were about to run into a wall. Very quickly, the power level increased dramatically, giving either a sense (of some undefined level of accuracy) of the general distance and shape of everything around him in three dimensions or letting Daredevil pilot a rocket back from space to land safely in central park. This power was sometimes seen as a passive awareness, other times as something actively sent out. Denny O'Neal described it as "Paranormal Waves," which I thought wasn't a bad idea because it didn't try and pretend that it worked like actual radar (it doesn't, nor does it work like sonar).

Frank Miller had the next interesting take on it. In an interview he stated that he wanted to ground it a bit:

One of the things I’ve done recently is revamp that radar sense of his to make the images he receives less distinct. I want it to resemble the “proximity” sense that some martial artists claim to have, where they can detect movement, form and location, but they don’t get pictures. I’m not fond of the radar sense in the first place. I haven’t given myself the opportunity to explore it very much.

Here is a good analysis of it in action. It's described as "like touching everything at once." This post points out that, in much of Miller's work, it's the other senses that go first and the radar sense is the last and least helpful. But it's certainly portrayed as a separate sense. However, there's a scene in The Man Without Fear where Stick asks young Matt to reach out and feel the air. From that, he can feel that one wall is closer than the other.

That last line may have been the inspiration for Bendis's approach (and Bendis's approach is the approach this show is taking). Essentially, it's that the radar sense is just a combination of all his senses together. In fact, Bendis is pretty consistent in calling it his "radar senses." Of course, that's what Bendis said, what he did is an entirely different animal (although I'd argue this was an exaggeration of all his senses, not a separate "radar sense," but I'm certainly not confident about that).

Here are all the articles if you want to a good long discussion of all this.

 

[Trekker4747]

I watched the first episode last night and really liked it. Interesting to see a "dark" entry in the MCU. Curious to see where the series goes as I watch more of it. The weakest part for me was probably the assistant lawyer guy (I don't do names well) he seemed way to much the sleazy ambulance chaser. Murdoch actually seems to want to *try* to do good in his practice.

Interesting choice to not show us his "vision" or some manner of showing us how he "hear-sees" but I can also see not wanting to connect it too much to the Affleck version.

Looking forward to watching more of it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The weakest part for me was probably the assistant lawyer guy (I don't do names well) he seemed way to much the sleazy ambulance chaser.

So...you haven't the foggiest notion what his name is...?

Hopefully he'll grow on you...the show invests a lot in his relationships with Karen and Matt.

 

[Christopher]

The weakest part for me was probably the assistant lawyer guy (I don't do names well) he seemed way to much the sleazy ambulance chaser.

Do you mean Foggy Nelson, Matt's partner? He's hardly an assistant, since his name comes first in the firm title.