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The DTI's Stance on the MU

"Requiem for a Martian" is from the Psi Phi BBS (a then-popular Treklit site) back in the 2000s.
My anonymous first draft of the Uncyclopedia article is dated 2006. Which was when the hoax was at its full flower (as to what kind of flower, I'd nominate Rafflesia arnoldii). And there is a small-time published ST author, and (at least at one time) frequent TrekBBS contributor, whose own web site contains evidence of complicity, if not "ringleader" status, in perpetuating the hoax.
 
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How do they mesh that with Cochrane's coinflip being the reason for things being different? I must not have gotten that far along in the Shatnerverse.
 
Oh-- I forgot about that. Yeah, both of those theories come up at different points. I don't remember if there's an explanation; I do remember that it bothered me.
 
It differed because of a coin flip? Is it Universe 1 or Universe A?

:p

But yeah, that thing that was mentioned earlier in thread about Cochrane choosing to reveal/keep secret the Borg was him deciding by a coinflip which to do. If I remember right, there was an implication (or maybe even outright exposition) that the fact that a decision was made based on a "perfect 50/50 chance" was why the universes diverged (as much sense as that doesn't make). At least, I remember something about 50/50 chances being involved cosmologically somehow.

Edit: Broke out the book and checked, and yeah, it explicitly equates it to Schroedinger's cat and throws in this: "Then again, Cochrane knew, according to other views of quantum physics, whenever the universe reached a decision point in which two outcomes were equally probable, the universe itself split, so that both outcomes had equal existence. "
 
Edit: Broke out the book and checked, and yeah, it explicitly equates it to Schroedinger's cat and throws in this: "Then again, Cochrane knew, according to other views of quantum physics, whenever the universe reached a decision point in which two outcomes were equally probable, the universe itself split, so that both outcomes had equal existence. "

Which isn't how it actually works, by the way. The theory is that every outcome gets its own independent measurement history (i.e. "universe"), regardless of their relative probabilities.

And it happens on a quantum-particle level, not the level of macroscopic events like coin flips or human decisions. That's why Schroedinger's Cat required the poison capsule to be triggered by the decay of a radioactive particle rather than, say, a burning candle -- because the point of the thought experiment was to create a situation where a quantum-state change could have a direct impact on a macroscopic outcome, something that usually would not be the case.

In fact, the splitting of the universe would happen, not because of which way the coin landed or which way a person decided to act, but because of whether, say, a radioactive atom in the adjacent brick wall decayed or not, or whether an electron in a nearby leaf tunnelled or not. Most alternate quantum realities would probably have exactly the same events on a human scale, except for those very uncommon instances where a quantum-level event did somehow manage to have a macroscopic impact. (Although that would probably happen a lot more frequently once a civilization got to the point of using transistor-based electronics and quantum computers.)

I suppose you could argue, though, that if a quantum-state change did split the universe in two, and there were a macroscopic event going on that actually did have a perfectly balanced 50-50 probability, then maybe it would just happen to take place differently in one universe than in the other. It wouldn't cause the split on a quantum level, but it would cause the two divergent universes to be noticeably different rather than functionally identical. I think I had Ranjea explain something to that effect to the trainees in Watching the Clock.

Although I'm not convinced such a truly balanced probability would ever really happen. A coin flip isn't an exactly 50-50 proposition to begin with, for various reasons. And there could also be influences from air currents and other environmental factors. I suspect that usually when we see an outcome as random and unpredictable, it's only because we're unable to account for every environmental factor or circumstance that's affecting its outcome.

Of course, in fiction, it's not that interesting to say "There are countless different universes, but they're all pretty much the same and their splits have nothing whatsoever to do with human actions or choices." So we fudge quantum physics for dramatic effect. What bugs me is when actual scientists, trying to talk about the Many-Worlds Interpretation for lay audiences, claim that it really is about human choices and coin flips and the like.
 
Yeah, that all's what I meant by "as much sense as that doesn't make". :p

(Of course, there is another easy way to have a macroscopic event be driven by a quantum-level process: use a quantum random number generator to determine a course of action.)
 
^Which, again, is not something that becomes possible until a civilization has high technology. So in a more quantum-accurate depiction of the multiverse (at least if my understanding is correct), you'd have a bunch of alternate timelines whose histories unfolded pretty much the same way up until the age of electronics, and then you'd start to see more and faster divergences as technology got more advanced and more microscopic, more affected by quantum-level processes either intentionally or through random variations.

I suppose there are some ways that quantum phenomena could have macroscopic effects. Radiation can trigger mutations, and some mutations might occur through random quantum changes in DNA molecules, so maybe a change in quantum states could cause a given mutation to occur in one timeline but not in another, leading to a slight evolutionary change. Although beneficial mutations are selected for by environmental conditions, so in a lot of cases, the difference would be cancelled out and have no long-term impact; but if it were a mutation that actually improved survival in a given environment, it could propagate. So there'd be a lot of "sheafs" of timelines that were effectively identical on a large scale, but that differed from one another in pretty massive ways -- ones where humans never evolved, ones where humans evolved but wolves didn't, ones where there are no shrimp, etc. (though ones that are nothing but shrimp seem unlikely). Or maybe some people got radiation-induced cancer in one timeline but not in another, and their presence or absence could've changed history.

Now, there some who believe that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon, that there's some kind of subatomic thing going on in our neurons' microtubules or whatever that gives us our self-awareness. I don't think there's sufficient evidence of this in real life, and honestly it sounds like a symptom of the tendency to treat quantum physics as some little-understood woo-woo field that can be used to justify mystical beliefs (even though it's actually a very solid, mathematically rigorous discipline that's been in practical use for over a century). But I have invoked the idea to explain telepathy in the Trek universe, so in that fictional context, quantum consciousness may be considered real. In which case it could be that quantum variations could affect people's state of mind and their choices. Although I had Lucsly express skepticism toward that idea in the opening scene of WTC. Maybe it's only true of telepaths?
 
Edit: Broke out the book and checked, and yeah, it explicitly equates it to Schroedinger's cat and throws in this: "Then again, Cochrane knew, according to other views of quantum physics, whenever the universe reached a decision point in which two outcomes were equally probable, the universe itself split, so that both outcomes had equal existence. "

Which book specifically was it? It's been a long time since I've read them.

Maybe the idea is that universes diverged with the coin flip, and then the Preservers operated in the Prime universe and not the Mirror one? I dunno, it's been ages, but the third book in the trilogy is called Preserver so they must tie into it somehow!
 
Now, there some who believe that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon, that there's some kind of subatomic thing going on in our neurons' microtubules or whatever that gives us our self-awareness. I don't think there's sufficient evidence of this in real life

You're referencing Penrose? Or the rather criticized "orchestrated objective reduction" model he and Hameroff put together?
 
^I don't know whose idea it is in particular. There are various proponents of the quantum-consciousness idea, some more fringey and mystical than others.
 
Edit: Broke out the book and checked, and yeah, it explicitly equates it to Schroedinger's cat and throws in this: "Then again, Cochrane knew, according to other views of quantum physics, whenever the universe reached a decision point in which two outcomes were equally probable, the universe itself split, so that both outcomes had equal existence. "

Which book specifically was it? It's been a long time since I've read them.

Maybe the idea is that universes diverged with the coin flip, and then the Preservers operated in the Prime universe and not the Mirror one? I dunno, it's been ages, but the third book in the trilogy is called Preserver so they must tie into it somehow!

It was the very last scene in Preserver, where Cochrane and Lily are talking about if they should tell anyone or not.
 
^Which, again, is not something that becomes possible until a civilization has high technology. So in a more quantum-accurate depiction of the multiverse (at least if my understanding is correct), you'd have a bunch of alternate timelines whose histories unfolded pretty much the same way up until the age of electronics, and then you'd start to see more and faster divergences as technology got more advanced and more microscopic, more affected by quantum-level processes either intentionally or through random variations.

I suppose there are some ways that quantum phenomena could have macroscopic effects. Radiation can trigger mutations, and some mutations might occur through random quantum changes in DNA molecules, so maybe a change in quantum states could cause a given mutation to occur in one timeline but not in another, leading to a slight evolutionary change. Although beneficial mutations are selected for by environmental conditions, so in a lot of cases, the difference would be cancelled out and have no long-term impact; but if it were a mutation that actually improved survival in a given environment, it could propagate. So there'd be a lot of "sheafs" of timelines that were effectively identical on a large scale, but that differed from one another in pretty massive ways -- ones where humans never evolved, ones where humans evolved but wolves didn't, ones where there are no shrimp, etc. (though ones that are nothing but shrimp seem unlikely). Or maybe some people got radiation-induced cancer in one timeline but not in another, and their presence or absence could've changed history.

Now, there some who believe that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon, that there's some kind of subatomic thing going on in our neurons' microtubules or whatever that gives us our self-awareness. I don't think there's sufficient evidence of this in real life, and honestly it sounds like a symptom of the tendency to treat quantum physics as some little-understood woo-woo field that can be used to justify mystical beliefs (even though it's actually a very solid, mathematically rigorous discipline that's been in practical use for over a century). But I have invoked the idea to explain telepathy in the Trek universe, so in that fictional context, quantum consciousness may be considered real. In which case it could be that quantum variations could affect people's state of mind and their choices. Although I had Lucsly express skepticism toward that idea in the opening scene of WTC. Maybe it's only true of telepaths?

So baring that in mind, and looking at the Myriad Universes novels, these would be more "what if" than "other universe" novels. However at least one of the myriad universes -- the "voyager stays in the delta quadrant post scorpion" (I believe you're familiar with it), had links to the prime universe in Species 8472, implying that Chakotay's mental coin flip was affected by a single quantum phenomenon, surely providing evidence to the "consciousness is a quantum phenomenon" thing?
 
^Well, I'm talking about what would likely be true in a more realistic scenario than Star Trek, so don't mistake that for an assertion about the Trek universe itself. Within Trek, because it's a fictional universe, it's a given that there are divergent timelines based on people's actions being different.
 
Of course, in fiction, it's not that interesting to say "There are countless different universes, but they're all pretty much the same and their splits have nothing whatsoever to do with human actions or choices." So we fudge quantum physics for dramatic effect. What bugs me is when actual scientists, trying to talk about the Many-Worlds Interpretation for lay audiences, claim that it really is about human choices and coin flips and the like.

One of the central aspects of star travel in John Scalzi's Old Man's War novel series is predicated on a not too dissimilar concept.

The various star-faring powers in known space use a system called Skip Drive, which is technically not an FTL engine in the sense that other franchises might envision it. Rather, each skip drive is essentially a "slider drive" - the drive punches a hole from one quantum reality to a near-identical other, close enough to the "departure" timeline to be more or less considered to be the same as one's own.

On the one hand, this can hammer home the sense that "you can never go home" - which is particularly true for Earth-humans, as the Colonial Union prevents Terran expatriates from going back to the Sol system, save for those involved in operating the CU's space-based infrastructure there. But for all practical purposes, most people involved mentally shrug off this concept when meeting with the effectively-identical alternates of their friends and loved ones.

Alternatively, the in-fiction concept of the "universal steam" in the Transformers multiverse has it that certain timelines are clustered with one another in a shared continuity family, each of which correlates with a real-world sub-series in the franchise. (Primax is used for Generation 1-related universes, Tyran for the live-action Bayverse movies, etc.)

In more recent years, some sources of TF print fiction have explored a "Shattered Glass" concept, which is essentially their answer to the Mirror Universe. Those "negative polarity universes" are kept somewhat apart from the "positive polarity universes", though inter-dimensional travel between polarities is possible.


As for the concept of erasing a given timeline, I'm minded of the method used (or rather, worked against) in the Stargate Atlantis episode "McKay and Mrs. Miller".

In that episode, "our" McKay - along with his sister Jeannie Miller - were working to use her mathematical construct to create a matter bridge that would allow them to draw zero point energy from an alternate universe, without generating the kind of dangerous exotic particles that would cause trouble in "ours". Of course, things don't quite go as planned, and soon both universes are put in peril.

The peril said to come from the exotic particles somehow involves them having the means of burrowing down into the layers of subspace underpinning the quantum reality in which they are created. Should that happen, the result would be to cause the entire Pegasus galaxy - if not the universe - to effectively blink out of existence.

(On a side note, there is a TF graphic novel which posits that Primus, in the form of Cybertron, acts as an "anchor" of sorts in each universal stream - and that by destroying/consuming each "avatar" of Primus, Unicron can trigger the collapse of said timeline. Perhaps Unicron can do willingly what Meredith almost did accidentally, once Primus is out of the picture?)

To dial it back to this discussion, it could be that the '"effectively-identical' alternate universes are too close to the Prime timeline to be noticed one way or another - akin to what happens in Old Man's War.

But the further out you get, in terms of how many differences one finds between the alternate universe and one's own, the greater the chance of the aggregate of changes leading to macroscopic differences which inter-dimensional watchmen (on either side) might need to look out for - be it DTI or others in the Prime timeline, Memory Omega in the Mirror Universe, or other such bodies which may be found in the numerous "myriad universes".
 
^Well, I'm talking about what would likely be true in a more realistic scenario than Star Trek, so don't mistake that for an assertion about the Trek universe itself. Within Trek, because it's a fictional universe, it's a given that there are divergent timelines based on people's actions being different.

Even from a story-telling perspective, that doesn't make sense. A significant decision by a single character may have drastic consequences for that individual's life, but no one person is important enough to cause the universe to suddenly turn on its ear because said person lived or died (i.e., Edith Keeler or Jack Kennedy).

Some of the Myriad Universes series (The Chimes at Midnight) have taken such a stance. Spock's childhood death in the aforementioned timeline apparently did not prevent the Enterprise from having successful long-term missions under both Pike and Kirk before being refitted. No explanation of how the V'Ger crisis was handled in Spock's absence is included in the story--which is disappointing, as it would be interesting to know how Kirk and company handled matters without the Vulcan's mind-melding capabilities.

--Sran
 
I would point out, if nobody has, that "the" Mirror Universe seen in the DS9 episodes isn't necessarily the same one we saw in TOS. Oh, it had it's "crossover" too but it might have been a different Kirk and company making it.

If there are a multitude of universes similar to the prime universe, as shown in the TNG episode "Parallels", it would seem to logically follow that there would be a multitude of "mirror" universes as well.

Welcome to the funhouse.
 
There's no reason to think it isn't, though, so you've got parsimony there. And it'd be narratively unsatisfying if it isn't, since it means that there's no longer that connection with the events in TOS. Plus, going into Treklit, the MU books pretty firmly establish that the MU in ENT, TOS, and DS9 are either all the same alternate universe, or one so similar in internal events and interactions with the prime universe that it may as well be the same one.

That explanation has been brought up before as a way to keep around Dark Mirror and the Dark Passions duology, though.
 
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