Do all Federation member have same access?

[Elias Vaughn]

Kira was an adult with experience commanding a vital Bajoran starbase, Wesley was a kid who happened to be on a Galaxy class ship because his mom worked there. He in no way should have had more right to a temporary field commission than Kira (and I say this as a guy who doesn't particularly hate Wesley Crusher, for the record).

If Janeway never caught flak for making B'Elanna her chief engineer at a time where the Maquis were considered terrorists, then Sisko shouldn't need a treaty to trust Major Kira with the center seat of a starship.

 

[Sci]

Kira was an adult with experience commanding a vital Bajoran starbase, Wesley was a kid who happened to be on a Galaxy class ship because his mom worked there. He in no way should have had more right to a temporary field commission than Kira (and I say this as a guy who doesn't particularly hate Wesley Crusher, for the record).

If Janeway never caught flak for making B'Elanna her chief engineer at a time where the Maquis were considered terrorists, then Sisko shouldn't need a treaty to trust Major Kira with the center seat of a starship.

Again, the important part is citizenship and holding a commission in a foreign military service.

No one is saying Kira didn't deserve to command the Defiant. But handing command of a ship over to a foreign military officer is a big deal, because her ultimate legal authority is not the Federation. At the end of the day, Kira as an officer in the Bajoran Militia works for the First Minister of the Third Republic of Bajor, not for the President of the United Federation of Planets. So, yes, handing over command of one of your most important vessels to a foreign military officer is not something that can be done lightly.

To make a real-world comparison, there are few countries as closely allied in this world today as the United States of America and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We share intelligence, our military officers fight and bleed together, our movies cross over so goddamn much that sometimes it's hard to say whether a given movie is American or British. But if someone were to give command of a U.S. Los Angeles-class submarine to a captain of the British Royal Navy, that would be a huge legal issue for the same reasons Nathan talked about not always being able to give information to allied foreign officers -- because at the end of the day, that captain doesn't work for us. His ultimate loyalty is not the the U.S., it is to the U.K. He doesn't work for the President of the United States, he works for Her Majesty the Queen (through the Prime Minister and Defence Secretary).

Things like this have legal consequences. It is not the same as the captain of a starship granting a field commission to one of their own citizens -- particularly a ship that's stranded on the other side of the galaxy, whose captain's actions may be extra-legal anyway as a function of practical necessity rather than obedience to Federation law. But such a situation has absolutely no bearing on the question of handing command of a starship at an important base over to a foreign military officer.

Mind you, nobody here is arguing that Kira should not legally be able to command the Defiant. We are arguing that, realistically, it should require some sort of treaty agreement. That is all.

 

[Idran]

Wesley's commission wasn't as big a deal as you're framing; it was basically an internship.

And again, Wesley and B'Elanna were Federation citizens. Kira was not. And besides, Janeway did catch flak when she got home.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

I'm not saying Wesley didn't deserve to become an acting ensign, I'm saying that Kira was eminently more qualified to command a ship than Wesley was to pilot one.

And I still disagree that a treaty is required; remember, DS9 wasn't a Federation starbase to begin with. Kira was second in command of DS9 - a Bajoran space station - and the Defiant was attached to it. Her being in command of the Defiant should have required no more treaty writing than giving Kira command of one of the runabouts attached to DS9.

 

[Idran]

And if an American submarine was permanently based out of HMNB Devenport for logistic reasons, would that make Sci's scenario more reasonable?

In all honestly I'd say a treaty would be needed for the runabout situation too, considering that they're still quite powerful vessels.

 

[Sci]

I'm not saying Wesley didn't deserve to become an acting ensign, I'm saying that Kira was eminently more qualified to command a ship than Wesley was to pilot one.

Being qualified by merit is not the same as being legally eligible.

And I still disagree that a treaty is required; remember, DS9 wasn't a Federation starbase to begin with. Kira was second in command of DS9 - a Bajoran space station

It was a Bajoran space station being administered as a Federation Starfleet starbase with a joint Starfleet/Bajoran Militia crew. I would compare it to, say, RAF Croughton, a British Royal Air Force base in England that is owned by the British Ministry of Defense but operated by the United States Air Force.

and the Defiant was attached to it. Her being in command of the Defiant should have required no more treaty writing than giving Kira command of one of the runabouts attached to DS9.

Except that command of an auxiliary craft is a vastly different thing from command of a full starship. That's like saying that if there's a U.S. Navy Base crewed jointly with officers from the British Royal Navy, there should be no legal distinction between a British officer commanding a U.S. tugboat and a Los Angeles-class submarine just because they're both attached to the base. It's patently absurd.

What it boils down to is that a starship is a fully separate command. It is not a craft that exists to support a base, it is an administrative unit in its own right which is entirely separate from the administrative unit which the base comprises. Ergo, being harbored at that base is not the same thing as being part of the same administrative unit which that base comprises: The USS Defiant is not an extension of Starbase Deep Space 9 the way the Rio Grande is. That's why Sisko had to receive separate orders to assume command of the Sao Paulo when it was delivered, and why Worf was the executive officer of the Defiant rather than Kira. Ergo, by definition, a separate administrative unit, a separate command, would logically require a separate treaty between the UFP and Bajor if Militia officers were to crew it, or command it.

And c'mon. It's not like a treaty of that sort would be some terrible inconvenience. These are sovereign states with dedicated foreign ministries.

 

[Sci]

And if an American submarine was permanently based out of HMNB Devenport for logistic reasons, would that make Sci's scenario more reasonable?

Exactly. If, say, the USS Ohio were to be based out of HMNB Davenport, you can be damn sure that Ian Shipperley (Commodore, British Royal Navy) would not be allowed to assume command of the Ohio unless there were a treaty in place authorizing it.

In all honestly I'd say a treaty would be needed for the runabout situation too, considering that they're still quite powerful vessels.

Possibly. On the other hand, since they are auxiliary without permanent crew, it's quite possible that they are either regarded as extensions of the administrative command unit which Starbase Deep Space 9 comprises, or that they were already included in the treaty agreement authorizing the UFP to run the station as a UFP starbase when Starfleet first took over.