Is Tuvix a real person?

[hux]

Yeah, that's right, I'm doing a Tuvix thread. What of it.

So most people went with their hearts when it came to the doctor being a real boy (you're all wrong by the way) and I wonder if a character with less fan appeal will get the same treatment

Is Tuvix a true unique sentient life form born of the combined consciousness of Tuvok and Neelix or is he simply the combined thoughts and feelings of Tuvok and Neelix manifesting as a single voice (thus only having the appearance of individuality)

Some will say Tuvix pleaded for his life but this could mean anything. Perhaps Tuvok and Neelix both or individually had concerns about being separated and these internal worries manifested in Tuvix saying he wanted to live

Perhaps, some part of Tuvok's psyche took enjoyment in having access to controlled emotions and this manifested in Tuvix saying he wanted to live etc

The point being, his desire to live proves nothing.

For the record, I believe that Tuvix was a unique sentient life form (by the Descartian criteria) but also believe that Janeway did NOT murder him when she separated him as nothing that constituted Tuvix was actually destroyed......except his unique consciousness which was reliant on two other people (and could merely have been two consciousnesses trying to make sense of the world)

Maybe you're someone who believes we each have a soul and when a child is born, it's soul is a combination of the souls of the mother and father. Maybe this transporter accident created a soul that was simply never meant to be

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think he was a unique sentient life form, the same way the ENT crew were when they sucked down a virus or whatever it was and became primitive aliens.

 

[maneth]

I think he was a unique life form, and I also think that Janeway committed murder by restoring things to the way they were before the accident.

Tuvix' fate, and in particular Janeway's behavior, went a long way towards ensuring that Voyager's my least favorite Trek show...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Is that a fake kirk in your avatar?

 

[Cromwell]

Yes, he was a unique life-form. Yes, Janeway is a murderer.

No, we don't care because Tuvix was weird and ugly.

Discussion over.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, he was a unique life-form. Yes, Janeway is a murderer.

No, we don't care because Tuvix was weird and ugly.

Discussion over.

Noob.

 

[Lipton]

I would say that he was becoming more and more his own unique person and less and less a mere combination of Tuvok and Neelix... the combination of their two personalities was starting to lead Tuvix down avenues that neither of his halves had previously considered (nor ever did once separated) and he was becoming less reliant on either of their ways of thinking. It's been a while since I watched it, but I think he was at least nearing the point where he wanted to consciously do things that were like neither Tuvok or Neelix. So I think that aspect of Tuvix was lost. Janeway is a murderer, lol!

Also, hux, you say you think he was a unique sentient life form according to the Descartian criteria, but then what you say after that seems to disagree with that. If Janeway did not commit murder by separating him into two beings, and you think his consciousness might have merely been a combination of two other consciousnesses trying to make sense of the world, that doesn't sound to me like a description of a unique sentient life form.

 

[Cromwell]

Yes, he was a unique life-form. Yes, Janeway is a murderer.

No, we don't care because Tuvix was weird and ugly.

Discussion over.

Noob.

On a serious note, I really was given that impression. Janeway seemed like she just, kind of, wanted her friend back; she didn't really like Tuvix so he held less worth to her.

They could have made it so that he had to be split apart (because his physiology was unstable, or whatever), but that would've been a cop out.

Either way, as far as I'm concerned, Tuvok and Neelix died in a transporter malfunction and Janeway sacrificed Tuvix, against his own will, to bring them back to life.

If Tuvix had been around for, say, a season and the audience got used to him (because the actor was great, in my opinion), I imagine that far fewer people would have sympathised with her course of action.

 

[Lance]

He's more 'real' than either Tuvok or Neelix individually.

They should've thrown random pairs into the transporter and seen what came out. Maybe Captain Janekotay might have gotten them all home much quicker than either Janeway or Chuckles seperately.

 

[hux]

Also, hux, you say you think he was a unique sentient life form according to the Descartian criteria, but then what you say after that seems to disagree with that. If Janeway did not commit murder by separating him into two beings, and you think his consciousness might have merely been a combination of two other consciousnesses trying to make sense of the world, that doesn't sound to me like a description of a unique sentient life form.

This is why I love Tuvix (the episode, not the so much the character) I don't see it as black or white. Yes, I think Tuvix was a sentient life form but no, I don't believe Janeway murdered him. As I said, Janeway has not destroyed any physical part of Tuvix. Whatever made his sentience real was none the less still dependent on the existence of Tuvok and Neelix (both of whom continue to exist) so unless you believe sentience comes from somewhere else. Somewhere more spiritual then his sentience still lives (but in two separate locations)

How could Janeway be convicted of murder when the thing she is accused of destroying still exists (albeit in a different physical form/s)

They could have made it so that he had to be split apart (because his physiology was unstable, or whatever), but that would've been a cop out.

I'm glad they didn't cop out. It makes the episode more powerful. When I first saw it, I was genuinely surprised that they didn't find some last minute "happy" fix. Voyager deserves some credit for this episode

I always thought the best solution was to tell Tuvix they were transporting him to sickbay for some tests then copy him during transport. Tuvix arrives in sickbay with the doctor and the duplicate gets separated back into Tuvok and Neelix on the transporter pad.

If Tuvix had been around for, say, a season and the audience got used to him (because the actor was great, in my opinion), I imagine that far fewer people would have sympathised with her course of action.

I would have loved Tuvix to be a crew member for a number of episodes or even a full season THEN they find a way to bring back Neelix and Tuvok. Now that would have been an awesome arc (and an even bigger ethical dilemma for Janeway)

 

[Orphalesion]

I also say he was an individual lifeforms. The way I see it Tuvok and Neelix were taken apart into all their aspects and then Tuvix was constructed from it. Like taking apart two two towers made out of children's blocks and arranging them into a one tower.

So yes I do think Janeway became a murderer by restoring Neelix and Tuvok.

I really like the idea of Tuvix (the episode I mean) I just wish it would have involved characters I give a damn about and the resulting gestalt would have been something else than a creepy git.
There could have been so many philosophical and psychological themes to explore if Tuvix had been an arc instead of a single episode.

 

[Cromwell]

I would have loved Tuvix to be a crew member for a season or two THEN they find a way to bring back Neelix and Tuvok. Now that would be an awesome arc (and an even bigger ethical dilemma for Janeway)

There could have been so many philosophical and psychological themes to explore if Tuvix had been an arc instead of a single episode.

So, we're agreed? It would've been cool to see the "Tuvix" story played for a longer period of time.

In fact, I often have that feeling about "Voyager". Quite a few episodes are crying out for arcs of their own. "Year of Hell" was an obvious example, but there's also "Investigations" and, of course, my personal favourite episode ("Distant Origin").

 

[Orphalesion]

So, we're agreed? It would've been cool to see the "Tuvix" story played for a longer period of time.

In fact, I often have that feeling about "Voyager". Quite a few episodes are crying out for arcs of their own. "Year of Hell" was an obvious example, but there's also "Investigations" and, of course, my personal favourite episode ("Distant Origin").

Definitely, Voyager was the epitome of "Wasted Potential".

 

[T'Girl]

Tuvok and Neelix being trapped inside of "Tuvix" was no different than if they had been trapped in the transporter pattern buffer for a similar time period. Tuvix was never a individual, it was always a composite of two individuals who deserved to be freed.

Quite a few episodes are crying out for arcs of their own. "Year of Hell" was an obvious example ...

Oh good God no, Year of Hell was vastly too long as it was.

 

[Orphalesion]

Tuvok and Neelix being trapped inside of "Tuvix" was no different than if they had been trapped in the transporter pattern buffer for a similar time period. Tuvix was never a individual, it was always a composite of two individuals who deserved to be freed.

I disagree Tuvix acted as an individual with desires of his own. There was no indication that Tuvok and Neelix had any awareness or consciousness beyond or separate from Tuvix. Nothing in the episode pointed towards Tuvok and Neelix being "trapped".
To pick up a metaphor from the episode itself. If you bake a cake are the milk and flour you used "trapped" inside the cake? Is the cake not a thing? Is it just the combination of its parts?

 

[Catarina]

I was a teen when this aired. I remember disliking him because he was primarily Neelix. However, I set judgement aside and just watched. Aside from his creepy Kes fixation he was trying to become useful and was creative. I accepted their death and when Janeway made the call to split Tuvix I was a bit in distress. Which was difficult to feel because I wanted to always side with Janeway.

 

[hux]

Quite a few episodes are crying out for arcs of their own. "Year of Hell" was an obvious example, but there's also "Investigations" and, of course, my personal favourite episode ("Distant Origin").

Investigations was part of a (mini) season two arc. There was a definite thread going through season two with Tom's malcontent behaviour and Seska as the baddie

Oh good God no, Year of Hell was vastly too long as it was.

So many people seem to love "Year of Hell" but I always found it profoundly boring

To pick up a metaphor from the episode itself. If you bake a cake are the milk and flour you used "trapped" inside the cake? Is the cake not a thing? Is it just the combination of its parts?

But what if the milk and flour are sentient and had previously enjoyed a fulfilling and wonderful life before some jackass had turned them into a cake without their permission. Then you "might" argue they were trapped?

Damn, I really want some cake now

Which was difficult to feel because I wanted to always side with Janeway.

I sometimes wonder if people jump on this particular episode because they want a reason to hate Janeway and if she's a murderer, then they've got one. I honestly go back and forth on this one. Currently believe he was sentient but might change my mind

 

[Catarina]

Hux>I wish you were close enough that I could shove some cake off to you. we have left over birthday cake. :-) ( I don't like cake)

 

[Catarina]

Hux> oh, and one more thing. I understand. I go back and forth also.

 

[Orphalesion]

I don't mind Janeway. Tuvix was really a "no win" situation. Allowing him continue to exist would have meant giving up on restoring/reviving Tuvok and Neelix, restoring/reviving Tuvok and Neelix meant killing him. And that's why a Tuvix arc would have been very interesting.
Also it was clear that Janeway was quite disturbed by her own action at the end of the episode.

However what we do hear from Tuvix is that he at least considers himself a person independent from Tuvok and Neelix, when Kes specifically asks if he has the feeling that Tuvok and Neelix talk to him o to each other inside him, he denies that was at a point when he himself was still interested in splitting up into Tuvok and Neelix again.
The problem was we never heard how Tuvoka nd Neelix experienced their time as Tuvix. To me more things point as them being Tuvix, instead of being "trapped" inside Tuvix.