These Are The Voyages Volumes 4 and 5...

[johnnybear]

Maybe it was a situation like that of Arena? Human settlers landing on beautiful worlds then find the sector belongs to an unknown race at the time called Klingons! We're not sure how the Gorn issue was settled but maybe the klingon problem is still there! Maybe they're referring to the Archanis sector?
JB

 

[plynch]

I just remembered -- or did I? -- that is not a real Kool-Aid novel cover, it's fan art. Or IS it?

 

[Melakon]

In Day of The Dove didn't Mara mention your poor planets deep in Klingon space and the fact that they were hunters and they have to be! Did she mean that there were some human colony planets that had been invaded by klingon forces in the past? Could that be one of the reasons for the hatred between their nations?
JB

What she actually says is

Mara: We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive.

She says nothing about Federation planets.

 

[Forbin]

In the first volume (at least in the first edition; I don't know if he corrected this later), Cushman claimed that TNG explained TOS Klingons by saying the Empire contains many different species. Given that level of knowledge, I don't want Cushman anywhere near TNG.

He's wrong about the claim, but that IS my personal favorite explanation for the foreheads. After all, the US armed services (for example) feature people from all the nation's multicultural heritages.

We also accept people into the Armed Forces who aren't Americans. I can't see the Klingons doing that. Or arming a subject race. The honor and glory of military service seems to be reserved for "ethnic" Klingons. America has been multi-ethnic from the start.

Then look to the old Soviet Union. They also had armed forces members from all their individual states. I once saw a video of a Soviet specialist addressing a class, and he was Asian.

Look also to ancient Rome - the Legions were often made up of as many foreign subjects as "native" Romans. Of course this bit them in the ass in Germania in 9AD .

 

[plynch]

Is this series of books available in bricks and mortar stores? Apologies if I asked this before.

 

[BillJ]

Is this series of books available in bricks and mortar stores? Apologies if I asked this before.

I don't think so. But I believe you can order them from Amazon.

 

[CrazyMatt]

The three books on TOS were enlightening (if somewhat flawed), and am glad I purchased them.

There are enough books, however, on the newer series, and almost all of those involved have given numerous interviews. Plus, there are a number of resources that dig into every episode produced over the seven years.

I may or may not buy these books, but they are not as attractive a subject to me as the first three.

 

[Botany Bay]

Yep, there's not a lot post 1969 I am desperate to know more about to be honest, perhaps with one little exception : 1986-9 and the tumultuous beginnings of TNG.

I've always suspected the creation of TNG would be an interesting story, and I've always urged the writers on here to get onto it, but nobody has, unfortunately.

Then last year at Star Trek Las Vegas, Shatner did a presentation on a documentary he was researching about the early days of TNG -- his preview clips suggested early TNG was a bit dysfunctional to put it mildly, and the doco looked terrific. Then I never heard another thing about it. Did he finish it?

 

[Warped9]

Yep, there's not a lot post 1969 I am desperate to know more about to be honest, perhaps with one little exception : 1986-9 and the tumultuous beginnings of TNG.

I've always suspected the creation of TNG would be an interesting story, and I've always urged the writers on here to get onto it, but nobody has, unfortunately.

Then last year at Star Trek Las Vegas, Shatner did a presentation on a documentary he was researching about the early days of TNG -- his preview clips suggested early TNG was a bit dysfunctional to put it mildly, and the doco looked terrific. Then I never heard another thing about it. Did he finish it?

Actually I believe he did and it was aired on television although I missed it.

 

[EnriqueH]

I've been reading criticism about Cushman's books.

How wrong are they? Are there a ton of errors? Can someone give me an objective review/blurb about his books?

 

[Warped9]

I've been reading criticism about Cushman's books.

How wrong are they? Are there a ton of errors? Can someone give me an objective review/blurb about his books?

I don't know if you'll get a truly objective answer. I acknowledge that I saw some errors in the books, but overall I quite enjoyed them. I felt he did a decent job of giving you a sense of what things were like when TOS was new and being broadcast for the first time. The author doesn't demonize the people involved, but he doesn't deify them either. They were complex human beings with strengths and weaknesses and conflicting viewpoints.

I particularly enjoyed the "story behind the story" laying out the evolution of each episode from conception to finished aired product.

Even acknowledging the errors I saw I still think he captured that sense of place and "as it was happening" overall.

 

[Indysolo]

I've been reading criticism about Cushman's books.

How wrong are they? Are there a ton of errors? Can someone give me an objective review/blurb about his books?

Reviews here and here.

Those are both by BBS member "Harvey", who has done a considerable amount research from the same papers that Cushman mined for his books. Only Harvey is more accurate and able to give a true assessment of the material presented in the book. Be sure to check out his post about the ratings and how Cushman and Osborn misinterpret the data in the books.

Here's another piece he's written about a claim made in the book.

In my own experience, I can't recommend them. I tried reading volume one and got disgusted by the typos and errors. I've looked through season two and found more of the same. I doubt season three is any better.

Neil

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I've been reading criticism about Cushman's books.

How wrong are they? Are there a ton of errors? Can someone give me an objective review/blurb about his books?

I don't know if you'll get a truly objective answer.

Oh, I think there are opinions that are objective enough. IndySolo just posted links to some. Or, have you found specific faults with Harvey's reviews that you'd like to share with us?

Or, do you mean that you've never seen a review/blurb that praises the books objectively?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have to chuckle at "purists" an "canonistas" embracing a book with so many factual errors.

 

[plynch]

"Rife" was a word that came to mind.

 

[Steve Roby]

I've bought the three books (though the switch to Kickstarter and changes in how the books are sold made it a lot harder to get the third one here in Canada). But I used to go to great lengths to buy every Star Trek book. The Arena book situation demonstrates a serious shortcoming in researching his material, a serious shortcoming in his ability to assess the accuracy of his sources, and an appalling shortcoming in coming to terms with having his errors pointed out to him.

I assume there's enough accurately quoted material for the books to be worth reading, but I wouldn't accept as accurate any new claim in them that isn't verifiable elsewhere.

I don't care what his day job is except that it hasn't taught him the research and analytical skills he needs to do books like these. If there are kickstarters for future volumes, frankly, I hope they fail.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

If he can't source it, he shouldn't include it.

General question for this thread. Are the things that are sourced in these books either a) done so clearly in the text or b) able to make it worthwhile to pick up these books purely for the bibliography?

 

[Harvey]

If he can't source it, he shouldn't include it.

General question for this thread. Are the things that are sourced in these books either a) done so clearly in the text or b) able to make it worthwhile to pick up these books purely for the bibliography?

Cushman's bibliography is extensive, and probably the most impressive part of his books, at least from my perspective. There are some things worth pointing out, though.

- The bibliography is largely the same in books one and two (and it also lists material that isn't discussed in those volumes, but will presumably be mentioned in volume three). In other words, it's been padded a little, and you shouldn't have to buy all three volumes if you want to see the bibliography.

- In terms of actual citations, he only cites quotations (and, as many have noted here, sometimes his citations lead to nonexistent endnotes).

Obviously, I strongly advise against buying these books, but those are the facts.

 

[CrazyMatt]

I've been reading criticism about Cushman's books.

How wrong are they? Are there a ton of errors? Can someone give me an objective review/blurb about his books?

Well, since we're all obviously interested in presenting all sides of the issues, let me offer links to some other reviews you should consider in addition to those previously listed.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2013/08/these-are-the-voyages-tos-season-one-book-review/

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2014/04/these-are-the-voyages-tos-season-two-book-review/

http://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/blogcritics/article/Book-Review-These-Are-the-Voyages-Season-Two-5268217.php

http://www.visionarytrek.com/review...e-are-the-voyages-season-two-by-marc-cushman/

http://treklit.blogspot.com/2014/09/tatv-s2.html

 

[Maurice]

It's fine that some people like the books. No one's discounting that reviewer can enjoy or find value in them. What some have issue with is the accuracy of said books, which most reviewers are not equipped to evaluate because they are not necessarily well versed in the details of TV production let alone have access to and familiarity with the primary source materials in various archives. Said reviewers can find the books a revelation and yet not suspect they're not reading an accurate account.