This has been a tough week....

[EnsignHarper]

....for Trekdom in general -Maurice Hurley, Harve Bennett - no matter what you think of 'his' Trek movies, he DID save the franchisee - and of of course Leonard Nimoy all passing away in the last week or so, its for a laugh!

This is funny - and tuneful as well! Barbershop Trek!

don't forget Part 2! Its better than any of JJ's stuff by far!

 

[Warped9]

I disagree that Bennett saved the franchise. A lot of folks seem to fall into thinking that because TMP doesn't seem to be universally loved that it was a also a financial failure.

No, that's definitely wrong. TMP was one of the better films in terms of box office. Paramount fucking around with the budget numbers tends to muddy this issue, but TMP made a respectable amount of money and benefitted from folks starved for live-action Star Trek to return.

I won't argue it here except to say that a lot of things were changed for TWOK that didn't need to be changed and for all its energy TWOK is also dumb-as-a-brick in many ways.

And the fact is that no matter who came along as execuive producer they would have benefitted from lower costs because sets and models already existed.

 

[Unicron]

* shrugs * I don't think TMP was a failure, although I do like TWOK better of the two and I think TMP had some great ideas that weren't executed properly. I wasn't aware that Maurice Hurley had joined the roster as well, unfortunately.

 

[Warped9]

One can like a film better than another, but that doesn't equate as fact that the producer "saved the franchise."

 

[EnriqueH]

I disagree that Bennett saved the franchise. A lot of folks seem to fall into thinking that because TMP doesn't seem to be universally loved that it was a also a financial failure.

No, that's definitely wrong. TMP was one of the better films in terms of box office. Paramount fucking around with the budget numbers tends to muddy this issue, but TMP made a respectable amount of money and benefitted from folks starved for live-action Star Trek to return.

I won't argue it here except to say that a lot of things were changed for TWOK that didn't need to be changed and for all its energy TWOK is also dumb-as-a-brick in many ways.

And the fact is that no matter who came along as execuive producer they would have benefitted from lower costs because sets and models already existed.

Look, I *love* TMP.

I absolutely love it.

But as much as I love it, I do understand intellectually some of the criticisms levied against it.

A lot of us love TMP, but the mainstream reaction---especially at the time---was negative.

So I do think Bennett "saved" the franchise.

 

[Warped9]

No.

 

[LeadHead]

No.

^ That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Regardless, the change in course between TMP and TWOK is widely regarded as a positive for the franchise. One of the new elements added was Harve Bennett, and he did from his account select Khan as the adversary in that movie.

So I think that it is appropriate for some to have the assumption that he saved the franchise. In the similar way that some credit Michael Pillar with saving the franchise by writing "The Best of Both Worlds" a turning point for the series.

 

[Albertese]

I forget where I saw it, but seems like I read once that TMP, in terms of ticket sales, was the best preforming of all the Star Trek films. I don't mean necessarily in terms of total dollars earned versus dollars spent, with or without adjustment for inflation. Just in terms of seats sold, how does it compare?

--Alex

 

[Warped9]

No.

^ That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Regardless, the change in course between TMP and TWOK is widely regarded as a positive for the franchise. One of the new elements added was Harve Bennett, and he did from his account select Khan as the adversary in that movie.

So I think that it is appropriate for some to have the assumption that he saved the franchise. In the similar way that some credit Michael Pillar with saving the franchise by writing "The Best of Both Worlds" a turning point for the series.

People can assume all they want, but that doesn't make it a fact.

 

[bbailey861]

* shrugs * I don't think TMP was a failure, although I do like TWOK better of the two and I think TMP had some great ideas that weren't executed properly.

This sums it up pretty nicely.

While TMP wasn't a financial failure, that is hardly the only measure to use when discussing the franchise come back. It was bound to be financially successful because of the pent up demand for Star Trek. IMO, Unicron is correct in that TMP had some great ideas that were not executed properly. TMP was visually impressive (and insufferably long in spots) but lacked what a great many fans, myself included, believed was missing - the interaction of the crew that we grew up with and learned - and that was something that Harve Bennett brought back to the franchise. Maybe 'save' is too strong a word, maybe it isn't. Who cares, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[LeadHead]

No.

^ That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Regardless, the change in course between TMP and TWOK is widely regarded as a positive for the franchise. One of the new elements added was Harve Bennett, and he did from his account select Khan as the adversary in that movie.

So I think that it is appropriate for some to have the assumption that he saved the franchise. In the similar way that some credit Michael Pillar with saving the franchise by writing "The Best of Both Worlds" a turning point for the series.

People can assume all they want, but that doesn't make it a fact.

People can also have differing opinions, doesn't make either of us right.

 

[kirkfan]

I agree about the tough week...

 

[Warped9]

Back in '79 and '80 I don't think there was much doubt there'd be a followup. Regardless of how they cost things out Paramount saw the money coming in. Their beef wasn't whether they knew whether they could make money on a sequel, but with how they spent so much because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to make a film or a series. They messed themselves up.

There was going to be a sequel. The public interest was there. The franchise was far from needing to be "saved."

 

[LeadHead]

Okay, this will be my last piece said about this because I don't want to go round and round.

TMP with it's various issues of writing quality, had itself a sequel, if the studio would spend the equivalent (or more) of the same budget, they could do another movie with the large quantity of special effects and it could quite possibly be successful, maybe even get another sequel after that. Given the issues with TMP, the franchise was going to lose Nimoy in the sequel, which also probably would have led to other departures in subsequent films. Taking piece after piece away from Trek until it was very little about the characters. (Yes, a slippery slope argument, but given the course set at TMP, it's not an unreasonable one)

The studio didn't want to spend the huge budget for Trek II that they spent for TMP, so it required a change of course. The more character driven course, attributed somewhat substantially to Bennett, kept the original cast together and produced some of the finest hours of Trek ever produced.

I agree with you that the franchise wouldn't have just died without him, but he helped ensure it remained a quality product. I think there is no doubt that without certain individuals, including him, Trek would be far different than it is.

As a final note, can we just be nice to the recently deceased? I see nothing wrong with saying that the guy was a savior of Trek. When someone passes away, there are tall tales told, some of them true, some of them exaggerated, probably some really exaggerated, but this shouldn't be offensive unless we were to credit him with creating the franchise in the first place or inventing the modern computer.

Mr. Bennett, may you rest in peace, Sir. Thank you for your hard work on a franchise we love so much.

 

[bbailey861]

Okay, this will be my last piece said about this because I don't want to go round and round.

TMP with it's various issues of writing quality, had itself a sequel, if the studio would spend the equivalent (or more) of the same budget, they could do another movie with the large quantity of special effects and it could quite possibly be successful, maybe even get another sequel after that. Given the issues with TMP, the franchise was going to lose Nimoy in the sequel, which also probably would have led to other departures in subsequent films. Taking piece after piece away from Trek until it was very little about the characters. (Yes, a slippery slope argument, but given the course set at TMP, it's not an unreasonable one)

The studio didn't want to spend the huge budget for Trek II that they spent for TMP, so it required a change of course. The more character driven course, attributed somewhat substantially to Bennett, kept the original cast together and produced some of the finest hours of Trek ever produced.

I agree with you that the franchise wouldn't have just died without him, but he helped ensure it remained a quality product. I think there is no doubt that without certain individuals, including him, Trek would be far different than it is.

As a final note, can we just be nice to the recently deceased? I see nothing wrong with saying that the guy was a savior of Trek. When someone passes away, there are tall tales told, some of them true, some of them exaggerated, probably some really exaggerated, but this shouldn't be offensive unless we were to credit him with creating the franchise in the first place or inventing the modern computer.

Mr. Bennett, may you rest in peace, Sir. Thank you for your hard work on a franchise we love so much.

Nicely said - there's nothing more I can possibly add. If we ever meet, I'm buying you a beer...or seven. Cheers, mate.

 

[Warped9]

TMP with it's various issues of writing quality, had itself a sequel, if the studio would spend the equivalent (or more) of the same budget, they could do another movie with the large quantity of special effects and it could quite possibly be successful, maybe even get another sequel after that.

This is where you're wrong. Because the budgetary problems with TMP were due to having to do things twice (for an aborted television series and a film) and the intensive f/x being done for the first time. If Paramount hadn't saddled TMP with the money blown on an aborted TV series then the film suddenly looks a lot less expensive on the books. And don't think TWOK didn't spend money either because they paid for entirely new costumes as well as new sets and models and new f/x. But that aside they already had the most important sets and models already built as well as a good number of stock f/x shots they reused. So the sequel was going to be less expensive from the get-go simply because the big money had already been spent. It's little different than a series' pilot episode expected to cost more than the individual followup episodes.

It's very easy to throw numbers around outside of context. But when you look at where the money is actually spent things become more clear.

 

[kirkfan]

You know after a week like that Riker starts punching passing red shirts just for the sake of catharsis...

 

[Warped9]

Sadly, as time passes, our heroes are inevitably going to fall one by one.

I think this is one of those things that really reminds us how time is passing for ourselves. I know the original cast is much older, but in my own mind when I think of them I usually see them in their prime when I first began following them. It can sometimes be something of a small mental jolt when I see them as they are today.

I was listening to a Mission Log podcast yesterday where they were talking about Leonard Nimoy and something was said that I think is quite true.

Nimoy has left us, but Spock is still here. Nimoy has left us a body of work that continues to resonate going on five decades after most everyone thought the show was dead and would likely be forgotten in the dustbins of television history. And I think that is true for all the main cast.

Othere actors have already and will play Spock again, but all of them will have to look to Nimoy's work as the definitive template for what the character stands for and what he has to say to us.

 

[kirkfan]

Sadly, as time passes, our heroes are inevitably going to fall one by one.

I think this is one of those things that really reminds us how time is passing for ourselves. I know the original cast is much older, but in my own mind when I think of them I usually see them in their prime when I first began following them. It can sometimes be something of a small mental jolt when I see them as they are today.

I was listening to a Mission Log podcast yesterday where they were talking about Leonard Nimoy and something was said that I think is quite true.

Nimoy has left us, but Spock is still here. Nimoy has left us a body of work that continues to resonate going on five decades after most everyone thought the show was dead and would likely be forgotten in the dustbins of television history. And I think that is true for all the main cast.

Othere actors have already and will play Spock again, but all of them will have to look to Nimoy's work as the definitive template for what the character stands for and what he has to say to us.

Hey, let's not forget that some day we're gonna get it too, maybe before some of our heroes even.

 

[Warped9]

Sadly, as time passes, our heroes are inevitably going to fall one by one.

I think this is one of those things that really reminds us how time is passing for ourselves. I know the original cast is much older, but in my own mind when I think of them I usually see them in their prime when I first began following them. It can sometimes be something of a small mental jolt when I see them as they are today.

I was listening to a Mission Log podcast yesterday where they were talking about Leonard Nimoy and something was said that I think is quite true.

Nimoy has left us, but Spock is still here. Nimoy has left us a body of work that continues to resonate going on five decades after most everyone thought the show was dead and would likely be forgotten in the dustbins of television history. And I think that is true for all the main cast.

Othere actors have already and will play Spock again, but all of them will have to look to Nimoy's work as the definitive template for what the character stands for and what he has to say to us.

Hey, let's not forget that some day we're gonna get it too, maybe before some of our heroes even.

Very true.

I haven't said much about Leonard Nimoy's passing this past week, but I can say Leonard Nimoy made his mark--brilliantly so--as a performer. He also did so as a good human being. You can't really do better than that and we are all the richer for it.

Thank you, Mister Nimoy.