These are the Voyages

[eyeresist]

Preferable to Gilbert & Sullivan (who I like in context, but sung by the TNG cast, no).

 

[M.A.C.O.]

It's not ranking anything. The show is called "Enterprise." The final scene is about the evolution of that name.

And is the only good part of the episode.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFd05XB64HY[/yt]

 

[kirkfan]

Preferable to Gilbert & Sullivan (who I like in context, but sung by the TNG cast, no).

Yeah, Geordi singing the "Major-General's Song"... Yikes!

 

[Darren Mooney]

It's not ranking anything. The show is called "Enterprise." The final scene is about the evolution of that name.

Wasn't the whole "valentine to the fans" argument that Enterprise got to wrap itself up with the Terra Prime/Demons two-parter and that These Are The Voyages... was intended as a farewell to the franchise?

"And fair dues to Brannon and Rick, they were winding up 17 years of their take on the series. It wasn't just our four years. They'd done a lot more stuff prior to us. So I thought it was fair enough."

"People were asking me at Grand Slam about it—they'd read the spoilers and seemed upset. I told them, well, think of it this way: "Demons" and "Terra Prime"—those episodes are the Enterprise finale, and "These Are The Voyages..." is the finale for the franchise as a whole, and maybe that will make things easier."

"I actually like it very much. The way we structured the season was that Demons" and "Terra Prime" were going to be a kind of quasi-finale. ... [Then "These Are The Voyages..." would be] the actual’ finale, which would be a farewell to Star Trek. That’s why this episode includes Riker and Troi."

We knew that this was going to be the last episode of Star Trek for perhaps quite some time – and here we are, almost six years later. So it was the last episode for quite a length of time. It was a very difficult choice, how to end it. The studio wanted it to be a one-hour episode. We wanted it to be special.

It's hard not to see These Are The Voyages... as attempting to "legitimise" Enterprise by shoehorning it (because, as everybody here has noted, there is no way it fits) into a beloved episode of The Next Generation.

What does William Riker do when he has a crisis? He plays out his fantasies of working with Archer, a REAL hero. In fact, it's so important to Will that it doesn't matter there's a crisis in progress or anything like that. You can just imagine Riker fitting in these impossible holodeck trips in the middle of The Best of Both Worlds or The Icarus Factor. Maybe he played out Judgment before A Matter of Honour.

These Are The Voyages... was a very transparent attempt to tie back Enterprise into The Next Generation. And that makes sense. It's a perfectly understandable choice. It was the "golden age" of the Berman era - the point at which Star Trek was a big American television show, and not a fringe genre show. So it makes sense that These Are The Voyages... would attempt a last-ditch grasp for legitimacy conferred by the favoured son.

("And the original Star Trek, sure why not? People know Kirk and Spock, right?")

There's nothing surprising or shocking or even wrong with this. But it does very clearly suggest that what the producers in charge of These Are The Voyages... think about when they think about Star Trek is TOS and TNG. Which is a defensible position, because that's what regular television viewers think about when they hear the words "Star Trek."

That said, actually incorporating that sentiment into the last broadcast episode of the Berman era and making it the entire point of the episode feels a little crass and dismissive of everything that happened in between.

But each's own.

 

[kirkfan]

If it's a valentine then it's "my funny valentine..."

 

[gblews]

It's not ranking anything. The show is called "Enterprise." The final scene is about the evolution of that name.

Wasn't the whole "valentine to the fans" argument that Enterprise got to wrap itself up with the Terra Prime/Demons two-parter and that These Are The Voyages... was intended as a farewell to the franchise?

"And fair dues to Brannon and Rick, they were winding up 17 years of their take on the series. It wasn't just our four years. They'd done a lot more stuff prior to us. So I thought it was fair enough."

"I actually like it very much. The way we structured the season was that Demons" and "Terra Prime" were going to be a kind of quasi-finale. ... [Then "These Are The Voyages..." would be] the actual’ finale, which would be a farewell to Star Trek. That’s why this episode includes Riker and Troi."

We knew that this was going to be the last episode of Star Trek for perhaps quite some time – and here we are, almost six years later. So it was the last episode for quite a length of time. It was a very difficult choice, how to end it. The studio wanted it to be a one-hour episode. We wanted it to be special.

It's hard not to see These Are The Voyages... as attempting to "legitimise" Enterprise by shoehorning it (because, as everybody here has noted, there is no way it fits) into a beloved episode of The Next Generation.

These Are The Voyages... was a very transparent attempt to tie back Enterprise into The Next Generation. And that makes sense.

How does that make sense? Why tie Enterprise to a 24th century Trek show while skipping over the 23rd century show that Ent most closely attempetd to resemble during it's run? Archer was supposed to have been Kirk's idol, not Jean-Luc's.

It had nothing to do with "legitimizing" Ent which had been legitimized as all other Trek series' had been; by simply being broadcast. No, as I have written here before, the use of Riker and Troi was nothing but a low class ratings stunt by the Beebs. They couldn't get Shat so they made a move to the next best ratings "cash cow" and that was the vast TNG fanbase, even though the inclusion of TNG characters made no sense in the context of where Ent fit into the Trek universe. It worked. The TNG fans lapped this drek up.

And something else, despite the damage control in the statements by the staff you quote above, prior to TaTV airing, the Beebs called it the "Ent finale" and did indeed call it a "valentine to the fans". I don't recall them saying before the episode that it was "not necessarily the Ent finale". Of course, at that time, spoilers about TaTV had leaked and Ent fans were already up in arms.

 

[kirkfan]

There always was an effort to link the different series together. McCoy on the Enterprise D, then Spock and Scotty.

Picard on Ds9, Q, Vash, Riker, to say nothign about O'Brien

Quark and Julian on TNG

The doctor and Tuvok on DS9

Ds9 is seen in the Pilot of Voyager etc...

So it's certainly nothing new.

 

[Darren Mooney]

How does that make sense? Why tie Enterprise to a 24th century Trek show while skipping over the 23rd century show that Ent most closely attempetd to resemble during it's run? Archer was supposed to have been Kirk's idol, not Jean-Luc's.

Which is nice advertising copy, because the everybody knows the name "Kirk."

However, in terms of material links to TOS in the first two seasons, most of them came from Mike Sussman and Phyllis Strong. (The Changeling brick joke in Civilisation being the most esoteric example, but also Coridan, the Tellarites; even though Sussman wrote the Tholians into Future Tense, we didn't get to see them until In a Mirror, Darkly.)

The biggest link back to TOS was the Andorians, who appeared in a grand total of three episodes of the first two seasons. The Klingons appeared more often.

In contrast, the "crossover" character who saw off the ship in Broken Bow was Zephram Cochrane, as played by James Cromwell - Cromwell who appeared with the cast of the Next Generation in First Contact.

In the first two seasons, the aliens who actually appeared tended to come from later in the franchise. I think anybody with an internet connection remembers the fuss that the Ferengi, the Nausicaans and the Borg generated. Or the portrayal and characterisation of the Klingons rooted in TNG rather than TOS, beyond even make-up design.

Not to mention all the aesthetic criticisms when the show went on the air that the production design hewed closer to The Next Generation than The Original Series. (Fans nicknamed the ship the "Akira-prise", if I remember correctly, after a similarly-designed ship that first appeared in movie First Contact.)

While Manny Coto tried (and failed) to get Shatner to guest-star on Enterprise, Rick Berman successfully got three members of the primary cast of The Next Generation to reprise their roles (and, in Spiner's case, also play a close relative) of their characters. While Rene Auberjonois and Ethan Phillips did cross over, they were actors generally disguised by make-up during their time on Star Trek. Phillips played a Ferengi, just like he did in TNG.

It had nothing to do with "legitimizing" Ent which had been legitimized as all other Trek series' had been; by simply being broadcast.

I think I may have caused a misunderstanding here. If so, I apologise.

I am not suggesting that Enterprise was illegitimate or anything crazy like that. (I love it dearly.) I hate the attempts to say that parts of the franchise do or do not count. The Animated Series is a frequent victim of that sort of dismissal. (After all, members of the production team had claimed that that show did not earn any legitimacy simply by fact of being broadcast.)

However, I think that there's a very reasonable argument to be made that the powers that were - who obviously retained and harboured a deep affection for their work on TNG above the other spin-offs - felt that Enterprise needed to be "legitimised" by association.

After all, it was the first prime-time Star Trek show cancelled since TOS. In light of that, any thing that might confer legitimacy on it makes sense.

I don't think that it's unfair to point out that by any commercial measure, TNG was "the golden age" of the Berman era. That oft-quoted graph makes a convincing case alone. More than that, the show resonated in pop culture. It got an Outstanding Drama Series nomination at the Emmys. That is a legitimate pop culture event in the way that DS9/VOY/ENT weren't. And I love those shows, but it's the truth.

Looking at all this, and looking at the fact that These Are The Voyages... makes a point to feature the physical appearance of two TNG actors and vocal cameos from two others, which makes up half of TNG's primary cast in its final seasons.

So, yes, it is telling that to These Are The Voyages..., saying goodbye to the franchise meant a quick snippet of Shatner, turning the last appearance of ENT into a holodeck programme on TNG, and basically building an episode as a sequence of deleted scenes from an episode that aired over a decade earlier.

But, as I said before, each's own.

 

[kirkfan]

I believe that in one of those instances, it was a false Andorian.

 

[Dukhat]

No, as I have written here before, the use of Riker and Troi was nothing but a low class ratings stunt by the Beebs. They couldn't get Shat so they made a move to the next best ratings "cash cow" and that was the vast TNG fanbase, even though the inclusion of TNG characters made no sense in the context of where Ent fit into the Trek universe. It worked. The TNG fans lapped this drek up.

I wouldn't go that far. While I'm sure that TNG fans were happy to see Riker, Troi, and the Enterprise-D again, I don't recall any of them (or anyone at all, in fact) praising the ep just because they were in it.

You can just imagine Riker fitting in these impossible holodeck trips in the middle of The Best of Both Worlds or The Icarus Factor. Maybe he played out Judgment before A Matter of Honour.

I can't see that at all, actually.

 

[Darren Mooney]

No, as I have written here before, the use of Riker and Troi was nothing but a low class ratings stunt by the Beebs. They couldn't get Shat so they made a move to the next best ratings "cash cow" and that was the vast TNG fanbase, even though the inclusion of TNG characters made no sense in the context of where Ent fit into the Trek universe. It worked. The TNG fans lapped this drek up.

I wouldn't go that far. While I'm sure that TNG fans were happy to see Riker, Troi, and the Enterprise-D again, I don't recall any of them (or anyone at all, in fact) praising the ep just because they were in it.

You can just imagine Riker fitting in these impossible holodeck trips in the middle of The Best of Both Worlds or The Icarus Factor. Maybe he played out Judgment before A Matter of Honour.

I can't see that at all, actually.

Sorry. Tone can be tough to convey. Should have added a

But if you can fit These Are The Voyages... into Pegasus - and I don't think you can, but the episode insists you can - then you can fit Riker's adventures elsewhere. It's not as if they fit any easier here than they would elsewhere.

 

[kirkfan]

No, as I have written here before, the use of Riker and Troi was nothing but a low class ratings stunt by the Beebs. They couldn't get Shat so they made a move to the next best ratings "cash cow" and that was the vast TNG fanbase, even though the inclusion of TNG characters made no sense in the context of where Ent fit into the Trek universe. It worked. The TNG fans lapped this drek up.

I wouldn't go that far. While I'm sure that TNG fans were happy to see Riker, Troi, and the Enterprise-D again, I don't recall any of them (or anyone at all, in fact) praising the ep just because they were in it.

You can just imagine Riker fitting in these impossible holodeck trips in the middle of The Best of Both Worlds or The Icarus Factor. Maybe he played out Judgment before A Matter of Honour.

I can't see that at all, actually.

Sorry. Tone can be tough to convey. Should have added a

But if you can fit These Are The Voyages... into Pegasus - and I don't think you can, but the episode insists you can - then you can fit Riker's adventures elsewhere. It's not as if they fit any easier here than they would elsewhere.

We don't know how often Riker used the holodeck for similar purposes but it could indeed have been any number of times. Maybe he did it on a regular basis.

 

[gblews]

How does that make sense? Why tie Enterprise to a 24th century Trek show while skipping over the 23rd century show that Ent most closely attempetd to resemble during it's run? Archer was supposed to have been Kirk's idol, not Jean-Luc's.

Which is nice advertising copy, because the everybody knows the name "Kirk."

What's your point here? That Archer was Kirk's boyhood idol is in the Ent show bible. That is an in-story link between Ent and TOS.

However, in terms of material links to TOS in the first two seasons, most of them came from Mike Sussman and Phyllis Strong. (The Changeling brick joke in Civilisation being the most esoteric example, but also Coridan, the Tellarites; even though Sussman wrote the Tholians into Future Tense, we didn't get to see them until In a Mirror, Darkly.)

Are you meaning to challenge the fact that Ent was a TOS prequel with the above statement? The show took place in the 22nd century and developed some of the concepts, tech, aliens, political situations, etc, that were prevalent in TOS. That is what prequels are supposed to do. There were numerous pre-TOS references in every season of Ent.

In contrast, the "crossover" character who saw off the ship in Broken Bow was Zephram Cochrane, as played by James Cromwell - Cromwell who appeared with the cast of the Next Generation in First Contact.

Just because TNG was the first series to give us a viisual of Cochrane, you think that makes him a "TNG character"? Cochrane transcends all of the spinoffs and TOS. Within the ST universe his existance pre-dates all of the series. He certainly cannot be associated exclusively with any one of the series.

And for the record, this discussion confines itself strictly to "in-story".

In the first two seasons, the aliens who actually appeared tended to come from later in the franchise. I think anybody with an internet connection remembers the fuss that the Ferengi, the Nausicaans and the Borg generated. Or the portrayal and characterisation of the Klingons rooted in TNG rather than TOS, beyond even make-up design.

Remember, this is "in-story", otherwise the discussion makes no sense. The reason these aliens apeared in Ent was to show some of the history of human's relationship with these aliens. Remember, Ent is a prequel. Also remember that I'm speaking strictly in story. The aliens' appearance in Ent does not show an in story link between Ent and TNG. Good lord, we all know the Ferengi were introduced on TNG.

I can't tell if you are just trying to win an argument or if you genuinely missed my point.

When I wrote that Ent was more closely related to TOS than to TNG, I meant "in-story", meaning from within the context of what we were being told storywise by Ent. This has nothing to do with people thinking the Ent production looked more like TNG than TOS. That is an "out of story" point. "In stoty", there really IS no link between Ent and TNG.

You get what I'm saying here?

 

[gblews]

No, as I have written here before, the use of Riker and Troi was nothing but a low class ratings stunt by the Beebs. They couldn't get Shat so they made a move to the next best ratings "cash cow" and that was the vast TNG fanbase, even though the inclusion of TNG characters made no sense in the context of where Ent fit into the Trek universe. It worked. The TNG fans lapped this drek up.

I wouldn't go that far. While I'm sure that TNG fans were happy to see Riker, Troi, and the Enterprise-D again, I don't recall any of them (or anyone at all, in fact) praising the ep just because they were in it.

I did, and still do. Only, I'm not convinced that the TNGers were praising the episode strictly because of Riker and Troi.

I saw a lot of love for TaTV coming from TNG fans. Stiil do. Believe me, it wasn't Ent fans who voted for TaTV to the point that it ended up in that "Captain's Log" thing, whatever that was or is.

Sounds like they lapped it up to me.

You can just imagine Riker fitting in these impossible holodeck trips in the middle of The Best of Both Worlds or The Icarus Factor. Maybe he played out Judgment before A Matter of Honour.

As an aside, if they wanted to take an Ent episode and fit it into "The Pegusus", they should have chosen "Divergence", which shows an otherwise loyal and trusted crewmember with divided loyalties between his current commanding officer and his prior commanding officer, just like in Pegusus.

I'm not suggesting this for the Ent series finale, just as an interesting episode. They would'nt have to change any of the TNG stuff, except the referencees to Trip's death. They could even leave in Riker molesting T'Pol.

 

[kirkfan]

We almost made it through the series without one... er two... er three holodeck stories.

 

[jespah]

...

Just because TNG was the first series to give us a viisual of Cochrane,...

FYI, TOS showed Cochrane first.

I get what you mean; that's just a point of clarification.

 

[kirkfan]

...

Just because TNG was the first series to give us a viisual of Cochrane,...

FYI, TOS showed Cochrane first.

I get what you mean; that's just a point of clarification.

TOS' Cochrane an anti-human-energy being relationship bigot...

"Take your stinking energy-paws off me you damn dirty ball of light!"

 

[Darren Mooney]

And for the record, this discussion confines itself strictly to "in-story".

In the first two seasons, the aliens who actually appeared tended to come from later in the franchise. I think anybody with an internet connection remembers the fuss that the Ferengi, the Nausicaans and the Borg generated. Or the portrayal and characterisation of the Klingons rooted in TNG rather than TOS, beyond even make-up design.

Remember, this is "in-story", otherwise the discussion makes no sense.

...

I can't tell if you are just trying to win an argument or if you genuinely missed my point.

I'm not trying to "win" an argument.

I'm trying to explain my statements, which apparently caused some confusion.

If you want to just discuss Enterprise "in story", that's perfectly reasonable and fair. As I said, everybody's entitled to an opinion. There's no "right" answer here.

Personally, I think that you can't look at something like These Are The Voyages... (or really any episode of Star Trek) just "in story", because these are pieces of television shaped by lots of external factors. There is a reason that these stories are told in the way that they are told, and those reasons are not always dictated "in story."* Budget, politics, studio mandate, curiosity, excitement, personal interest, availability.

It's fun to argue about Klingon foreheads or the chronology of how These Are The Voyages... possibly fits into Pegasus, but those aren't as interesting to me - and not as informative to me - as discussing why certain creative choices were made and what those creative choices say about the franchise.

(For example, the lack of overtly gay major characters in the franchise means that Star Trek doesn't say anything about its attitudes on the issue "in story." However, that same absence says something quite unpleasant and uncomfortable about the franchise in the real world, because it was a conscious choice at a production level. Given that we live in the real world, and gay rights are an issue in the real world, it seems - again, to me - that this discussion is more worth having than one concerning "in story." Similarly, what Berman and Braga actually considered to be the "worthy" parts of the franchise when writing These Are the Voyages... is much more interesting to me than lip service.)

But, as I have repeatedly stated, each's own.

* I'd argue that even the reasons dictated "in story" - ie, by continuity or canon - are only imposed after consent is given externally. Brannon Braga can decide to acknowledge Threshold or not to acknowledge Threshold in dialogue given by the EMH. The result is still objectively an episode of Star Trek, no matter what choice he makes. Just like writers can write material that contradicts the series bible or earlier episodes while still making Star Trek.

 

[gblews]

And for the record, this discussion confines itself strictly to "in-story".

In the first two seasons, the aliens who actually appeared tended to come from later in the franchise. I think anybody with an internet connection remembers the fuss that the Ferengi, the Nausicaans and the Borg generated. Or the portrayal and characterisation of the Klingons rooted in TNG rather than TOS, beyond even make-up design.

Remember, this is "in-story", otherwise the discussion makes no sense.

...

I can't tell if you are just trying to win an argument or if you genuinely missed my point.

I'm not trying to "win" an argument.

I'm trying to explain my statements, which apparently caused some confusion.

If you want to just discuss Enterprise "in story", that's perfectly reasonable and fair. As I said, everybody's entitled to an opinion.

I guess you did just miss my point. What I said simply was that "in story", the relationship between Ent and TOS is quite obvious and natural. "In story", the relationship between Ent and TNG is nearly non-existent. If you disagree, please feel free to explain how and why, but please confine it to "in story" relationships between TNG and Ent.a

One of the many reasons Ent fans hate TaTV so much is because of the way it ignores the natural relationship between the 22nd and 23rd century in favor of attempting to create an in story relationship between the 22nd and 24th centuries that comes across as forced - witness the way the producers "forced" the Ent story into "The Pegusus". Totally unnatural, ackward, and ultimately unbelievable.

 

[eyeresist]

While I'm sure that TNG fans were happy to see Riker, Troi, and the Enterprise-D again, I don't recall any of them (or anyone at all, in fact) praising the ep just because they were in it.

I did, and still do. Only, I'm not convinced that the TNGers were praising the episode strictly because of Riker and Troi.

I saw a lot of love for TaTV coming from TNG fans. Stiil do. Believe me, it wasn't Ent fans who voted for TaTV to the point that it ended up in that "Captain's Log" thing, whatever that was or is.

Sounds like they lapped it up to me.

I haven't seen any love for TATV from TNG fans.
TNG fans voted TATV onto the "Captain's log" compilation because they had to include an ENT episode in their vote. Their attitude seems to be that ENT was a worthless show, but at least TATV had TNG characters in it.