My Gripes with STID!

[Nerys Myk]

I am not sure.

I am.

From little things like the fact that he familiarizes himself with every detail of his enemies' vessels so that he can overcome any defenses right up to the fact that when his victory is frustrated he always goes a little nuts and is willing to destroy his adversaries at the likely cost of his own life.

Leaving aside the ethnic origin (Sikh as said in space seed) there's also the fact that Khan was obviously a babe magnet. Plus the Khan from space seed was too proud to let himself hit in the face by Kirk without smashing his head. Add to that an endless list of minor details that together scream that this is a very different person.

Hardly two defining moments for Khan.

The only babe Khan attracted in Space Seed was Marla and she's easily swayed.

I don't even recall any attempted head hitting in Space Seed. In STID he allowed it to show how ineffectual Kirk was. A very Khanlike move.

Khan is about barely concealed contempt and arrogance. Khan in STID had that in spades.

 

[BigJake]

Add to that an endless list of minor details that together scream that this is a very different person.

I believe Dennis when he says he's confident, but I don't find the argument convincing.

John Harrison clearly has an eidetic memory, but that was hardly a unique feature of Khan as a character, there are lots of hyper-intellectual villains; his intellect was part of a constellation of traits that included exoticism, arrogance and a hotheaded drive for power (and yes, sex appeal too -- one of the diverting bits about Space Seed was seeing the shoe on the proverbial other foot, a villain who could work his mojo in a mirror-image of what Kirk would do so many, many times).

And the part about his going nuts when his victory is frustrated only applied to Khan in Wrath because it was organically a part of an Ahab complex which had fifteen years' worth of backstory; Khan in Space Seed was ruthless and toweringly entitled but far from insane or suicidal, and indeed was perfectly willing to back off and accept exile when it was clear he was beaten. If anything it's an even weirder fit for the more cold-blooded and calculating super-baddie that Crabblepatch is playing*, almost as if the moments meant to sell Khannishness (the abrupt veerings into savagery with "you should have let me sleep" or "no ship should go down without her captain") had been spliced into what was originally a totally different performance. (Not that the creative process was necessarily quite that simple, but the character does feel to me like an awkward compromise between different visions.)

* No, before someone comes rushing in to point this out, I haven't forgotten that he believed his crew that he'd for some reason loaded into the torpedoes was dead when he snapped. It's just a weaker story beat for me than the backstory of the long exile on Ceti Alpha V. Raises questions about why he was so quick to jump to a conclusion that had already proven wrong once before, etc, see discussion on prior pages.

 

[Mudd]

Leaving aside the ethnic origin (Sikh as said in space seed) there's also the fact that Khan was obviously a babe magnet.

1. He doesn't in any way resemble a Sikh in "Space Seed," regardless of what McGivers suggested as a likelihood. She was a really bad historian;
2. His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

Try again?

 

[BigJake]

His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

It was manipulation, yes. He was a villain, after all. (Not that I think Kirk's various manipulations of the weaker sex in TOS were much healthier, but... it-was-the-Sixties-mumble-mumble...)

 

[Nerys Myk]

His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

It was manipulation, yes. He was a villain, after all. (Not that I think Kirk's various manipulations of the weaker sex in TOS were much healthier, but... it-was-the-Sixties-mumble-mumble...)

Kirk was less of an asshole.

 

[BigJake]

His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

It was manipulation, yes. He was a villain, after all. (Not that I think Kirk's various manipulations of the weaker sex in TOS were much healthier, but... it-was-the-Sixties-mumble-mumble...)

Kirk was less of an asshole.

That's how I generally remember it.

 

[kirkfan]

His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

It was manipulation, yes. He was a villain, after all. (Not that I think Kirk's various manipulations of the weaker sex in TOS were much healthier, but... it-was-the-Sixties-mumble-mumble...)

Kirk was less of an asshole.

Janice of Turnabout Intruder, likely didn't share that opinion.

 

[BigJake]

^ I do my best to forget that episode, but neither the Romulan Ale nor the blood wine seem to help.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Leaving aside the ethnic origin (Sikh as said in space seed) there's also the fact that Khan was obviously a babe magnet.

1. He doesn't in any way resemble a Sikh in "Space Seed," regardless of what McGivers suggested as a likelihood. She was a really bad historian;
2. His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

Try again?

Also, Sikh not an ethnicity.

 

[JWPlatt]

His behavior toward McGivers was physical and emotional abuse, not the behavior of a man any emotionally healthy woman would be attracted to.

Agreed. I never felt comfortable with an intelligent and professional woman behaving the way she did. But worth noting from the credits is that the teleplay by, story by and director pulling the strings of the role were all men.

 

[BigJake]

^^ Oh God, not the hairsplitting over "ethnicity" again. Can we not?

 

[kirkfan]

^ I do my best to forget that episode, but neither the Romulan Ale nor the blood wine seem to help.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ I do my best to forget that episode, but neither the Romulan Ale nor the blood wine seem to help.

I know a guy on Tantalus V who might help. You can trust him, he's a doctor.

 

[kirkfan]

^ I do my best to forget that episode, but neither the Romulan Ale nor the blood wine seem to help.

I know a guy on Tantalus V who might help. You can trust him, he's a doctor.

That damn flashing light...

 

[M'Sharak]

^^ Oh God, not the hairsplitting over "ethnicity" again. Can we not?

It does have the virtue of being true, O Rolly-eyed One.

Sikhism is a religious and cultural categorization; it has never been an ethnic one. While the majority of Sikhs are ethnic Punjabis, nowhere near all Punjabis are Sikhs; some are Hindu and many others are Muslim. There are also Punjabis who are Buddhists or Christians or Jain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_people#Religious_demographics_of_the_contemporary_Punjab

 

[CorporalClegg]

^^ Oh God, not the hairsplitting over "ethnicity" again. Can we not?

Would it be hairsplitting if people went running around arbitrarily calling all white people WASPs? All Asians, Buddhists?

 

[BigJake]

Sikhism is a religious and cultural categorization; it has never been an ethnic one.

^^ Oh God, not the hairsplitting over "ethnicity" again. Can we not?

Would it be hairsplitting if people went running around arbitrarily calling all white people WASPs? All Asians, Buddhists?

The character was identified as potentially "Sikh" in the episode, we all know that's what he's referring to, the question of whether Sikh is an "ethnicity" is sufficiently complicated and contested (some people say yes, others no, including among Sikhs themselves) that there is zero point in splitting hairs over it. It's complicated, we know what the guy means, that should be it.

So, and with due respect to both M'Sharak and Wikipedia, can we not? It just strikes me as kind of needlessly evasive and obfuscatory. (And really, sorry if I'm being a bit of a dick about it, it's just a little annoying to see people making confident pronouncements about a question that isn't even settled within Sikhism. Especially when I happen to directly know people who are ethnically but not religiously Sikh and who I'm effectively being told do not exist.)

 

[BillJ]

^^ Oh God, not the hairsplitting over "ethnicity" again. Can we not?

Would it be hairsplitting if people went running around arbitrarily calling all white people WASPs? All Asians, Buddhists?

The character was identified as potentially "Sikh" in the episode, we all know that's what he's referring to, the question of whether Sikh is an "ethnicity" is sufficiently complicated and contested (some people say yes, others no, including among Sikhs themselves) that there is zero point in splitting hairs over it. It's complicated, we know what the guy means, that should be it. So, can we not?

Star Trek fans excel at hairsplitting. Why stop now?

 

[BigJake]

Star Trek fans excel at hairsplitting. Why stop now?

Do you mean "Star Trek fans," or Trekkies, or Trekkers? We need to make sure we're absolutely clear on the terminology...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Trekists of course.