How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and ANH?

[Masiral]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

In movie-thought, it makes sense that only Yoda and Obi-Wan survived. Because Anakin brought balance to the Force; there were only two Sith and two Jedi left.

It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users. Anakin brought balance in ROTJ by killing Palpatine. After that there were 0 Sith. He did not bring balance in ROTS. In fact, ROTS tells us as much in Obi-Wan dialogue: "It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"

The problem is that balance is never explicitly defined in the movies. We never actually hear the prophecy. Obi-Wan could be misinterpreting it.

OBI-WAN KENOBI: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
MACE WINDU: So the prophecy says.
YODA: A prophecy that misread could have been.

George Lucas has said that the prophecy was fulfilled when Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ, but using only the films, one cannot definitively say what bringing balace to the Force really means.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

That still doesn't make replacement of "balance of the Force" with "balance of the Force-users" any less of a logical fail. Since Force-users are not the same thing as the Force, it stands to reason that you can't simply use the two concepts interchangeably. Trying to make the balance of the Force into a Force-user head count flies in the face of the fact that the Jedi desire balance and want to see it achieved. They would presumably not feel the same way about the prospect of ten thousand Sith.

George Lucas has said that the prophecy was fulfilled when Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ

...which happens to be entirely consistent with what Obi-Wan says about balance in ROTS. But we should ignore Lucas because he didn't pop into the film personally to tell us this in his own words?

 

[Masiral]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

That still doesn't make replacement of "balance of the Force" with "balance of the Force-users" any less of a logical fail. Since Force-users are not the same thing as the Force, it stands to reason that you can't simply use the two concepts interchangeably. Trying to make the balance of the Force into a Force-user head count flies in the face of the fact that the Jedi desire balance and want to see it achieved. They would presumably not feel the same way about the prospect of ten thousand Sith.

George Lucas has said that the prophecy was fulfilled when Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ

...which happens to be entirely consistent with what Obi-Wan says about balance in ROTS. But we should ignore Lucas because he didn't pop into the film personally to tell us this in his own words?

Yes, it is consistent. But the movie itself does not definitively state that Obi-Wan is correct. No, I don't think that Lucas should pop in to personally tell us this, but knowing the actual text of the prophecy would certainly help.

 

[Wadjda]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I hope the prophecy will be abandoned from now on. It was never needed in the first place.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

That still doesn't make replacement of "balance of the Force" with "balance of the Force-users" any less of a logical fail. Since Force-users are not the same thing as the Force, it stands to reason that you can't simply use the two concepts interchangeably. Trying to make the balance of the Force into a Force-user head count flies in the face of the fact that the Jedi desire balance and want to see it achieved. They would presumably not feel the same way about the prospect of ten thousand Sith.

George Lucas has said that the prophecy was fulfilled when Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ

...which happens to be entirely consistent with what Obi-Wan says about balance in ROTS. But we should ignore Lucas because he didn't pop into the film personally to tell us this in his own words?

Yes, it is consistent. But the movie itself does not definitively state that Obi-Wan is correct. No, I don't think that Lucas should pop in to personally tell us this, but knowing the actual text of the prophecy would certainly help.

Obi-Wan: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

 

[Set Harth]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

But the movie itself does not definitively state that Obi-Wan is correct.

Movies don't tend to state things, they usually leave that job to the characters. But the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing, so revisionist theories which depend on a false equivalence between the two are problematical even without the movie somehow bending over backwards to explicitly rule them out.

Obi-Wan: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

If there's a reason why Obi-Wan lied to Mace, Yoda, and Crispy Anakin, I'd sure like to hear it.

 

[Masiral]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

But the movie itself does not definitively state that Obi-Wan is correct.

Movies don't tend to state things, they usually leave that job to the characters. But the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing, so revisionist theories which depend on a false equivalence between the two are problematical even without the movie somehow bending over backwards to explicitly rule them out.

A prophecy will be up to interpretation without an explicit statement as to how it is fulfilled. Look at the prophecy of the Messiah: Christians believe it to be Jesus, Jews do not. And the films do not make it as reasonably clear as you think.

 

[JD]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

As for the original question that started the thread. I've never really had a problem with there being other Jedi besides Yoda, and Obi-Wan. As skilled as the Jedi were, and as many of them as there were, I don't think it's totally unreasonable that more than two of them survived. As for Yoda's line about Luke being the last of the Jedi, you can always just say he didn't know about any of the others since they were all in hiding.

 

[Wadjda]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Yeah how do we explain why none of them joined Luke after ANH?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Yeah how do we explain why none of them joined Luke after ANH?

Good question. In an ideal world, it's the storyteller's job to explain that. I look forward to finding out someday how many other Jedi there were during this period, and what they were up to.

 

[USS Firefly]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Maybe because they didn't use the force for 19 years.
Or couldn't get off the planet they were on, starship broke down after all that time?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I had assumed there were former Jedi still in hiding and potential Force users all over the galaxy, but Luke was the only one actually being trained at the time.

 

[Wadjda]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Maybe because they didn't use the force for 19 years.
Or couldn't get off the planet they were on, starship broke down after all that time?

A couple of them could had ended up on barbaric planets. I don't think the Force is like pro basketball. Only the Exile had to relearn things.

Yeah how do we explain why none of them joined Luke after ANH?

Good question. In an ideal world, it's the storyteller's job to explain that. I look forward to finding out someday how many other Jedi there were during this period, and what they were up to.

Just don't have too many. It really takes away from Luke if they are as many as they used to be in the old EU.

 

[Relayer1]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I had assumed there were former Jedi still in hiding and potential Force users all over the galaxy, but Luke was the only one actually being trained at the time.

The galaxy must be full of forcw users or potential force users, with more being boen all of the time.

Yoda, Ben and thwn Luke were probably the last with formal Jedi affiliation and training that they knew about.

There were no doubt some surviving Jedi in hiding, which would tend to prevent them from selecting and training 'raw' any force users that arise. I'd say there are probably well under a hundred fully trained Jedi.

Other force users ? Who knows...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Also, in ESB when Ben says 'That boy is our last hope' then Yoda says 'No, there is another'. Yoda is obviously referring to the untrained Leia who could become a Jedi.

If that the case then they were possibly fucked if Luke couldn't save her from Darth Vader, since you know he mentioned going off to Bespin because she and Han were in trouble.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I think at that point Lucas and Kurtz were still considering the other to be a different character-still Luke's sister possibly, but not Leia.


Of course the only problem with this is that Leia senses Luke towards the end of ESB.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I think at that point Lucas and Kurtz were still considering the other to be a different character-still Luke's sister possibly, but not Leia.


Of course the only problem with this is that Leia senses Luke towards the end of ESB.

Also, Vader is hellbent on following the Falcon.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

But the movie itself does not definitively state that Obi-Wan is correct.

Movies don't tend to state things, they usually leave that job to the characters. But the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing, so revisionist theories which depend on a false equivalence between the two are problematical even without the movie somehow bending over backwards to explicitly rule them out.

A prophecy will be up to interpretation without an explicit statement as to how it is fulfilled. Look at the prophecy of the Messiah: Christians believe it to be Jesus, Jews do not. And the films do not make it as reasonably clear as you think.

I wrote: the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing.

So you dispute this? It is not clear from watching the films that a Force-user is not the same thing as the Force?

 

[Masiral]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

Movies don't tend to state things, they usually leave that job to the characters. But the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing, so revisionist theories which depend on a false equivalence between the two are problematical even without the movie somehow bending over backwards to explicitly rule them out.

A prophecy will be up to interpretation without an explicit statement as to how it is fulfilled. Look at the prophecy of the Messiah: Christians believe it to be Jesus, Jews do not. And the films do not make it as reasonably clear as you think.

I wrote: the films do make it reasonably clear that the Force and Force-users are not the same thing.

So you dispute this? It is not clear from watching the films that a Force-user is not the same thing as the Force?

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject, because neither one of us is going to convince the other.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: How many light side force users should there be between ROTS and A

I just never thought I would have to convince someone of that.