How much did TWOK depend on Fantasy Island?

[alpha_leonis]

I'm sure a lot of us know the story behind the production of TWOK. TMP had been a financial success (enough to justify the making of a sequel), but it had been a disaster to produce and it had mixed reviews in terms of the pacing and direction of its storyline. Harve Bennett was hired to pull off that seemingly-impossible task of making a successful sequel to a less-than-stellar first movie.

One of the first things that Bennett did "on the job" at Paramount was to watch videotapes of every episode of TOS, to get at least a sense of "the style" of the series, and the kinds of stories they liked to tell. Also (a secondary reason, I think) was to pull out an episode that deserved a sequel. And "Space Seed" was it: out of every story that was filmed, "Space Seed" was the one that pretty much required a follow-up if a follow-up would ever be made.

But of course, there was another advantage to that story in particular. In the 15 years since Space Seed had originally aired, Ricardo Montalban had gone on to become a very popular actor in his own right: Fantasy Island was a top-rated show in its fourth or fifth season already by the time Montalban got "the call" to come back and reprise his role.

But suppose there was no "Fantasy Island"? Would "Space Seed" have been enough of a draw, even if Montalban had only been playing bit parts for those 15 years?

And the obvious follow-up question: what would have been the best second-choice episode to follow up from TOS, assuming that Montalban was less popular, less interested, or otherwise unavailable? Would ST2 have even followed up an original episode at all?

 

[Melakon]

But suppose there was no "Fantasy Island"? Would "Space Seed" have been enough of a draw, even if Montalban had only been playing bit parts for those 15 years?

This sounds as if we're supposed to believe Montalban was a nobody until Star Trek made him famous in 1967, and that he did nothing else worth mentioning until Fantasy Island in 1977.

Montalban's career began with small unbilled parts in 1942. He appeared in dozens of films and television guest star roles before Star Trek. Between 1967-1977, he had about 45 more appearances in television and film, including a short-lived TV series in 1977. The guy was always visible and working regularly.

 

[alpha_leonis]

This sounds as if we're supposed to believe Montalban was a nobody until Star Trek made him famous in 1967, and that he did nothing else worth mentioning until Fantasy Island in 1977.

Montalban's career began with small unbilled parts in 1942. He appeared in dozens of films and television guest star roles before Star Trek. Between 1967-1977, he had about 45 more appearances in television and film, including a short-lived TV series in 1977. The guy was always visible and working regularly.

I'll grant you that. But I still see it as the difference between an A-list TV actor who had carried his own series for five years, versus a B-list workhorse who appears everywhere but not as many people can place (at least not for any specific role.)

For example: instead of Khan, what if they'd decided to bring back Michael Ansara to play Kang? I'd argue Ansara and Montalban were nearly equal in acting quality, and their Star Trek characters were equally good foils for Kirk. The difference? Montalban was headlining a popular series at the same time as his movie was released. Ansara wasn't. Could that have had an impact on the kind of movie that did get (or would have gotten) made?

Of course, "Day of the Dove" was less obvious as a sequel-generator than "Space Seed" was. But I still think there was untapped potential there: Kang could easily decide that their dispute got interrupted and needed to be revisited, this time without the energy-windmill's interference.

 

[kirkfan]

But suppose there was no "Fantasy Island"? Would "Space Seed" have been enough of a draw, even if Montalban had only been playing bit parts for those 15 years?

This sounds as if we're supposed to believe Montalban was a nobody until Star Trek made him famous in 1967, and that he did nothing else worth mentioning until Fantasy Island in 1977.

Montalban's career began with small unbilled parts in 1942. He appeared in dozens of films and television guest star roles before Star Trek. Between 1967-1977, he had about 45 more appearances in television and film, including a short-lived TV series in 1977. The guy was always visible and working regularly.

I believe he also played the villain in one of the James bond movies.

 

[Melakon]

Harve Bennett chose "Space Seed" as the story to leap from because the episode itself asks what if they went back to check on their progress. Conveniently, Montalban had his own series running, but that still didn't mean he would have been available for the film. If he'd had a start date commitment to his own show, Bennett might have tried to find another source episode, or an original idea like Starfleet Academy.

I believe he also played the villain in one of the James bond movies.

Not that I can see. He did appear in a spy movie during the 60s called Sol Madrid, but it was a vehicle for Man from UNCLE's David McCallum.

 

[Greg Cox]

But suppose there was no "Fantasy Island"? Would "Space Seed" have been enough of a draw, even if Montalban had only been playing bit parts for those 15 years?

This sounds as if we're supposed to believe Montalban was a nobody until Star Trek made him famous in 1967, and that he did nothing else worth mentioning until Fantasy Island in 1977.

Montalban's career began with small unbilled parts in 1942. He appeared in dozens of films and television guest star roles before Star Trek. Between 1967-1977, he had about 45 more appearances in television and film, including a short-lived TV series in 1977. The guy was always visible and working regularly.

I believe he also played the villain in one of the James bond movies.

Not that I recall. Montalban appeared in two PLANET OF THE APES movies (as Armando the friendly circus owner) and played the villain in the first WONDER WOMAN tv-movie, as well as in at least one episode of "The Man from UNCLE," but he never played a Bond villain.

 

[f14peter]

Noppers, can't get my head around this concept.

By the time TWOK was released, Star Trek was already firmly entrenched in its popularity and the role of Khan well known. People went to see the film not to see Mr Rourke, but to see Khan, and his revenge on Kirk (part of the marketing for the film).

Also, an implied return to a more traditionally Star Trek story helped tremendously.

By the way, Fantasy Island co-star Hervé Villechaize portrayed the main henchman for Bond villain Francisco Scaramanga in Man With the Golden Gun

 

[Melakon]

By the way, Fantasy Island co-star Hervé Villechaize portrayed the main henchman for Bond villain Francisco Scaramonga in Man With the Golden Gun

Good catch, that may be who kirkfan is thinking of. Herve would look much bigger on a movie screen than he did on a tv.

 

[urbandefault]

A couple of years before "Welcome to Fantasy Island," Montalban had a different catch phrase, widely known to US TV viewers.

"Rich Corinthian Leather."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o

 

[f14peter]

deleted: Dbl post

 

[alpha_leonis]

Noppers, can't get my head around this concept.

By the time TWOK was released, Star Trek was already firmly entrenched in its popularity and the role of Khan well known. People went to see the film not to see Mr Rourke, but to see Khan, and his revenge on Kirk (part of the marketing for the film).

Also, an implied return to a more traditionally Star Trek story helped tremendously.

Well, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but I distinctly recall reading a comparison somewhere between TMP and TWOK --

... while the main driver behind the eventual profit that TMP realized was the die-hard Trek fans who were buying multiple tickets because they'd only had syndication for the last decade

... TWOK was able to become much more successful than TMP because (in addition to the superior story) they were able to break out of the hard-core syndication audience and gain some new converts from the general audience that hadn't paid much attention before. (Four years later, TVH through its comedy was able to do that *again*, to become the most successful of the six "classic crew" movies, partly by selling itself to non-Trekkies.)

Part of that success of TWOK, I had assumed, was because people were going to see Ricardo Montalban in a different context. If it had been Ansara as Kang (assuming they'd skipped Khan and gone directly for the Klingon story), not quite so much. They would have kept the hard-cores, but not much else (but they still would have come up with a better movie than what became TSFS. Ansara-fighting-for-Genesis would have been a better movie than Christopher Lloyd hamming it up as Kruge, but I don't think they would have expanded much past the syndication fans who would have seen it anyway.)

Perhaps I'm just wrong in my memory or my assumptions.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I only remember an erroneous claim from pre-Star Trek II publicity (newspaper, magazine, radio...I forget which) that the second movie was going to have Ghengis Khan from The Savage Curtain in it.

I'll have to think about which other episode would've been a good Plan B choice

 

[kirkfan]

Harve Bennett chose "Space Seed" as the story to leap from because the episode itself asks what if they went back to check on their progress. Conveniently, Montalban had his own series running, but that still didn't mean he would have been available for the film. If he'd had a start date commitment to his own show, Bennett might have tried to find another source episode, or an original idea like Starfleet Academy.

I believe he also played the villain in one of the James bond movies.

Not that I can see. He did appear in a spy movie during the 60s called Sol Madrid, but it was a vehicle for Man from UNCLE's David McCallum.

I could have sworn that he was the man with the golden gun!

 

[drt]

Noppers, can't get my head around this concept.

By the time TWOK was released, Star Trek was already firmly entrenched in its popularity and the role of Khan well known. People went to see the film not to see Mr Rourke, but to see Khan, and his revenge on Kirk (part of the marketing for the film).

I had been a Star Trek fan since 1972 or so, I didn't remember who Khan was until Chekov found the "Botany Bay" belt buckle. Granted, Star Trek hadn't been on the air where I lived for a couple of years, but obviously Khan never made that big of an impression on me. They could have probably revisted Trelane* and Kor just as easily.

* = Rodenberry essentially did revist Trelane with Q.

Well, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but I distinctly recall reading a comparison somewhere between TMP and TWOK --

... while the main driver behind the eventual profit that TMP realized was the die-hard Trek fans who were buying multiple tickets because they'd only had syndication for the last decade

... TWOK was able to become much more successful than TMP because (in addition to the superior story) they were able to break out of the hard-core syndication audience and gain some new converts from the general audience that hadn't paid much attention before. (Four years later, TVH through its comedy was able to do that *again*, to become the most successful of the six "classic crew" movies, partly by selling itself to non-Trekkies.)

Corrected for inflation, TWOK only had only 80% the box-office of TMP (TVH had 90%), and with the more exciting story I'd assume die-hards would have been even more likely to revisit TWOK multiple times, so they are probably a wash. Therefore, I'd guess the general audience was more curious about TMP (perhaps because big-budget sci-fi films were still somewhat uncommon in 1979), and since a lot of people were disappointed by TMP, I'd say they were less likely to see TWOK.

However, TWOK was the most "successful" from a return on investment point-of-view, since it had the lowest budget. With that budget in mind, using Khan gave them a guest star who was cheap, but very popular and well known at the time - so I think your original hypothesis for using Montalban is valid.

 

[f14peter]

Harve Bennett chose "Space Seed" as the story to leap from because the episode itself asks what if they went back to check on their progress. Conveniently, Montalban had his own series running, but that still didn't mean he would have been available for the film. If he'd had a start date commitment to his own show, Bennett might have tried to find another source episode, or an original idea like Starfleet Academy.

I believe he also played the villain in one of the James bond movies.

Not that I can see. He did appear in a spy movie during the 60s called Sol Madrid, but it was a vehicle for Man from UNCLE's David McCallum.

I could have sworn that he was the man with the golden gun!

Although Montalban probably would have made a convincing Francisco Scaramanga , Christopher Lee played the part

 

[f14peter]

Well, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me, but I distinctly recall reading a comparison somewhere between TMP and TWOK --

... while the main driver behind the eventual profit that TMP realized was the die-hard Trek fans who were buying multiple tickets because they'd only had syndication for the last decade

... TWOK was able to become much more successful than TMP because (in addition to the superior story) they were able to break out of the hard-core syndication audience and gain some new converts from the general audience that hadn't paid much attention before. (Four years later, TVH through its comedy was able to do that *again*, to become the most successful of the six "classic crew" movies, partly by selling itself to non-Trekkies.)

Part of that success of TWOK, I had assumed, was because people were going to see Ricardo Montalban in a different context. If it had been Ansara as Kang (assuming they'd skipped Khan and gone directly for the Klingon story), not quite so much. They would have kept the hard-cores, but not much else (but they still would have come up with a better movie than what became TSFS. Ansara-fighting-for-Genesis would have been a better movie than Christopher Lloyd hamming it up as Kruge, but I don't think they would have expanded much past the syndication fans who would have seen it anyway.)

Perhaps I'm just wrong in my memory or my assumptions.

Fans went to TWOK not to see a buffed out and ill-tempered Mr Roake, or even see Montalban in a different context, they went to see Khan.

I also believe any "audience break-out" athe film had was due to the story (more traditional action-adventure) benefiting from the appeal of new generation (sorry) SFX that was aggressively marketed/promoted as such.

for the life of me, I just can't imagine the Fantasy Island fanbase flooding the theaters, or the prospect there of, having any impact on whether TWOK got greenlighted or was considered a boxoffice success

as for TSFS being better with Ansara as the antagonist, I like Kruge's character but have to admit Kang instead has appeal

 

[kirkfan]

Harve Bennett chose "Space Seed" as the story to leap from because the episode itself asks what if they went back to check on their progress. Conveniently, Montalban had his own series running, but that still didn't mean he would have been available for the film. If he'd had a start date commitment to his own show, Bennett might have tried to find another source episode, or an original idea like Starfleet Academy.


Not that I can see. He did appear in a spy movie during the 60s called Sol Madrid, but it was a vehicle for Man from UNCLE's David McCallum.

I could have sworn that he was the man with the golden gun!

Although Montalban probably would have made a convincing Francisco Scaramanga , Christopher Lee played the part

Yes, I don't know why I had this image in my head. That was probably a result of thought association with Fantasy Island.

 

[alpha_leonis]

So let me perhaps reframe the question a little bit. Leaving the discussion of Montalban and Fantasy Island aside, I'd like to revisit the "recasting TSFS" idea, assuming TWOK had been made the way we all know it (and I think we all agree that Montalban *excelled* as Khan, regardless of his background.)

For the follow-up, the producers did like the idea of casting big-name stars whenever possible: Christopher Lloyd for TSFS; Christopher Plummer and Kim Cattrall for TUC, etc. (They wanted Eddie Murphy as Dr. Taylor for TVH, and Sean Connery as Sybok for TFF, but neither possibility worked out.)

For TSFS specifically: much as I love Christopher Lloyd, I personally feel he was miscast as a Klingon. (Others may feel free to disagree with me; I choose not to argue that point. I do feel that they cast him because he was equally well known as Montalban, having just finished five years on "Taxi".)

Considering that they had just had a massive success with the "let's revisit a classic episode" formula, what if they decided to bring back one of the "famous" classic Klingons instead of inventing an entirely new one and casting a comedic actor like Lloyd to play him?

I've already suggested bringing back Michael Ansara as Kang to fill that role. Other examples could easily have been Jon Colicos as Kor, or William Campbell as Koloth. I think the movie would have been equally successful with any of the above, though the tone of the movies may have changed drastically.

But of the three, I've come to think that TSFS with Kor instead of Kruge would have been the best idea. The tone of the movie would have been similar to Kang (Koloth would have injected more humor into it), but the movie might benefit overall from Colicos' higher reputation. He'd pretty recently come off the experience of "starring" as Baltar in Battlestar Galactica, so he was best known to general fans out of the three.

The only possible drawback I can see is that all three characters knew Spock personally, so "saving Spock's body" would have felt different with them, as opposed to Kruge the stranger. Though it may have even increased the drama by some degree, since any one of them could have actively worked to *keep Spock dead*, as opposed to Kruge who was simply apathetic to whatever was going on with Spock -- Kruge's target was Kirk and only Kirk.

Just a few random thoughts.

 

[eyeresist]

I think it's very likely that while he was watching all the TOS episodes, Bennett said "Hey, that's the guy from Fantasy Island!", and instantly saw the combination of a recognisable and liked actor with a story with strong sequel potential.

If Montelban hadn't been available, they might have tried for a different actor, but after Montelban anyone else would seem vanilla.

In a way it's surprising Bennett didn't just bring in the Klingons or the Romulans as the heavies. Either would have made a strong enemy for our heroes. I think Bennett may have worried that the audience would have laughed at, or at least not related to, a non-human enemy. An all-human cast is less likely to alienate the mundanes.

 

[mb22]

The movie might benefit overall from Colicos' higher reputation. He'd pretty recently come off the experience of "starring" as Baltar in Battlestar Galactica, so he was best known to general fans out of the three.

He might have been better known to the general public as Mikkos Cassadine on General Hospital in 1981, and perhaps the1981 Jack Nicholson version of The Postman Always Rings Twice.