And Star Trek V failed because...
- Thread starter Zaku
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Oh, good observation. If TFF/Gen Kirk had been in the earlier movies, he probably would have beamed over to the Reliant himself to fight Khan.
Yes, I realize there was the fight with Kruge on Genesis, but Kirk really had his back to the wall there in a hopelessly desperate situation -- quite different than the mountain climbing, horseback riding "It was fun/because it's there" mid-life crisis Kirk.
TFF Kirk would've defeated Khan with a trademark ''one two chop' before ultimately picking khan up and literally throwing him through the view screen
yes TSFS Kirk was pretty much TWOK Kirk fighting for his (and his crews) life. totally bought Kirk there in that desperate and very dangerous situation. TFF Kirk would've bested Kruge with a jumping jim drop kick knocking him into the lake of devils and then mounted a unicorn riding back to spock before climbing up the side of a mountain with spock on his back to the top ordered Maltz to bring the BOP down then jumped on the wing (with spock) and opened the hatch and karate chopped Maltz as the others looked on in awe
yes TSFS Kirk was pretty much TWOK Kirk fighting for his (and his crews) life. totally bought Kirk there in that desperate and very dangerous situation. TFF Kirk would've bested Kruge with a jumping jim drop kick knocking him into the lake of devils and then mounted a unicorn riding back to spock before climbing up the side of a mountain with spock on his back to the top ordered Maltz to bring the BOP down then jumped on the wing (with spock) and opened the hatch and karate chopped Maltz as the others looked on in awe
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According to The Internet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_V:_The_Final_Frontier
Shatner conceived his idea for the film's story before he was officially given the director's job. His inspiration was televangelists; "They [the televangelists] were repulsive, strangely horrifying, and yet I became absolutely fascinated," he recalled.
Shatner was intrigued that not only did these personalities convince others God was speaking directly to them, but they became wealthy by what Shatner considered false messages. The televangelists formed the basis for the character "Zar", later "Sybok". Shatner's first outline was titled "An Act of Love", and many of its elements — the Yosemite vacation, the abduction of Klingon, human and Romulan hostages on the failed paradise planet — survived to the final film.
In Shatner's early draft, Kirk is overwhelmed by Zar's superior numbers of followers and Spock, McCoy and the rest of the Enterprise crew come to believe in Zar's divinity. Kirk feigns acceptance of Zar's beliefs to travel with him to the God planet, which to Shatner would be a desolate, fiery waste. When Kirk confronts "God", the image of the being transforms into that of Satan, and Kirk, Spock, and McCoy split up in their escape. Kirk eludes capture but goes back to save his friends from being carried away to Hell.
Because really, the most absurd proposition ever advanced in the Star Trek universe is the claim that in under three centuries it will be possible for middle-aged men to take up recreational mountain climbing.
I think his point was more that Kirk's mountain climbing excursion was conspicuously absent of any real safety measures.
The same has been said of TNG's cast members who were not baldy & the plastic guy. In the view of too many, the rest were just there to collect a paycheck, as the movies were the Picard/Data show. No matter who directed the films, the result was the same.
It was a HUGE letdown for me after the high that Star Trek had achieved up through Star Trek IV. I just remember thinking that the special effects looked noticeably worse than the previous three movies (looked on par with TMP, which were pretty cruddy IMHO) and the storyline was also disappointing and predictable and the characters just didn't really act like themselves except for maybe the main three. I had a particularly hard time believing that almost all of the major crew members would allow themselves to be brainwashed by Sybok (also a continuity issue as we never knew that Spock had a half-brother). Plus, the Klingon "I must kill Kirk because......" sub-plot seemed forced in there unnecessarily- to create more tension. All this being said, however, it had some of the best character dynamics and interactions between Spock, Kirk, and McCoy and none of them, thankfully, were fooled by "God" and I appreciated Sybok's sacrifice when he realized the error of his ways. Plus, Goldsmith's score for the movie was very well-done.
As you say, in the TNG movies, "the Picard/Data show" was a leitmotif. But there were also many other enduring moments and scenes which did not involve them, as well. What of Geordi's returning sight? Or Riker and Troi's renewed Love Affair? Bev's conjuring up Voyager's EMH Program was one of the TNG movies' better comedic moments, I think, because it's so organic to the story and who she is, as a character. Guinan even has meaningful involvement in one of the features. And as long as John Logan was involved, The Next Generation cast wasn't going to be well-served in Nemesis, that's for certain. But even there, the cheesiness of The Final Frontier is nowhere to be found ...
I'm not quite sure I agree with this. Frakes, Sirtis, Dorn, Burton and McFadden were only given what they were given. It wasn't their fault that the focus of the four movies ended up being on Stewart and Spiner (and it was certainly out of their power that S&S eventually got creative control). I don't think people thought they were there just to "collect a paycheck." It's the writers' fault for not giving them more material (especially McFadden, who was supposed to be Stewart's fucking LOVE INTEREST, for crying out loud.)
^ Yes the TNG movies were an atrocity in that way, on of the (in my eyes) biggest improvements of TNG over TOS (the excellent ensemble cast) was mostly or completely ignored to focus solely on Picard and Data, turning Picard into an "action hero pastiche" in the process and having Data face dilemmas and trials he had already faced during the show.
Well, it was okay to do once, in my opinion - that is, I thought First Contact turned out well. But it's the very fact that First Contact did well that gave S & S the power to meddle in the writing thereafter, with S (the latter) eventually given a shared story credit. The same sort of credit, that is, as Shatner received on TFF (and that Nimoy did on IV and VI).
TV actors who later become known for writing their own material are rare, and even the ones who are good at doing so (e.g., Alan Alda - MASH episodes, The Four Seasons and other feature films) turn out duds sometimes.
No hate here. William Shatner is the personification of being "Mr. Hollywood", and that's a good thing.
"Hate" is a strong word ...
That's because it lifts weights.
I don't get why people must find a fault when others dislike a famous person. What I know about Shatner I doubt he'd be someone I'd get along with if I met/worked/lived with him, so why should that opinion change because he is famous or good at self-promotion?
Of course I could be wrong, some of my best friends are people I initially didn't get along with, and some people who I hit it off with to a great start have now become strangers again. You never know I guess.
However as to TFF, my opinion of that movie has nothing to do with my opinion of Shatner. If it had been pitched and directed by Patric Stewart, and the outcome would have led to the same movie, I'd still call it a horrible mess with possibly one of the stupidest, predictable premises I have ever seen.
And Patric Stewart wasn't exactly great at writing for Picard either, wasn't that dune buggy scene in NEM his idea? Or Marina Sirtis playing....Marina Sirtis in most of the movies...
Of course I could be wrong, some of my best friends are people I initially didn't get along with, and some people who I hit it off with to a great start have now become strangers again. You never know I guess.
However as to TFF, my opinion of that movie has nothing to do with my opinion of Shatner. If it had been pitched and directed by Patric Stewart, and the outcome would have led to the same movie, I'd still call it a horrible mess with possibly one of the stupidest, predictable premises I have ever seen.
And Patric Stewart wasn't exactly great at writing for Picard either, wasn't that dune buggy scene in NEM his idea? Or Marina Sirtis playing....Marina Sirtis in most of the movies...
The problem is that whenever Shatner's name comes up, some people feel compelled to post a rant about how awful he is in every way. It gets old, and shows a lack of tact and maturity.
I man ever said it was the most absurd things. I said it was ridiculous that it wasn't enough shatner co wrote, directed, starred and came off as the only character in the film who didn't turn weak and or stupid at some point in the film. He also threw in a scene of him doing something just to reinforce how strong and macho he was. And don't give me this bs about it showed his weakness because he slipped and Spock had to save him. He only slipped because spock distracted him and it was played for laughs. Not to show some vulnerable side of kirk like in TWOK.
But since you mentioned it. Yes it is absurd as anything in ST because it is Impossible that a guy of shatners age and physical could free climb el cap that far. Saying he was doing a little recreational rock climbing is like saying the Tour de France is a little light bicycle ride.
So if something is impossible then it is absurd. There are many other things impossible in ST. But something can't be more impossible than something else. Impossible is an absolute. So yes it's every bit as absurd as all the other impossible things in ST.
Don't believe me? Watch a movie or read a book about rock climbing and then tell me with a straight face kirk had any chance of free climbing halfway up el cap. If he tried it 10000 times he would fall to his death 10000 times.
And I want to reiterate that I am not just some shatner hater who bags on him for everything wrong in TOS
I have said many times on here that people ride his jock too much, both professionally and personally for things that are ridiculous.
That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for life. He's done some dumb and jerk things during ST and deserves to be called on it.
TFF was the pinnacle of his personal hubris and power and he played it for all it was worth. Doesn't mean the man is a terrible person or actor and everything else he's done is worthless, but I'm not going to pretend like he didn't intend TFF to be a tribute to his greatness. Sorry I call it like I see it good bad or otherwise
I have said many times on here that people ride his jock too much, both professionally and personally for things that are ridiculous.
That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for life. He's done some dumb and jerk things during ST and deserves to be called on it.
TFF was the pinnacle of his personal hubris and power and he played it for all it was worth. Doesn't mean the man is a terrible person or actor and everything else he's done is worthless, but I'm not going to pretend like he didn't intend TFF to be a tribute to his greatness. Sorry I call it like I see it good bad or otherwise
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