Okay, that just made Christopher Lloyd even cooler in my book!
Kruge: Good villain?
- Thread starter EnriqueH
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Okay, that just made Christopher Lloyd even cooler in my book!
That's far from said. Supposedly, the Empire was saved from the Praxis fallout once the Feds stopped shooting at them. Chang could certainly have achieved the "Feds stop shooting" part by destroying the Federation.
Which is quite plausible a motivation as far as humans go; Klingons shouldn't stray too far from the human mold if they're to be relatable still.
Then who did? He stood to benefit the most: he got Gorkon killed, he almost got the war he wanted, and he held a solid position as the de facto leader of that war. Plus, his side needed that war, not just for Klingon entertainment, but because that was key to their continuing survival. It seems the deal was the sweetest for him, less so for Cartwright's side.
Which of course may prove that Cartwright and his cunning Vulcan strategists masterminded it all, and made the deal so sweet to convince even an arch-enemy to join.
Although personally I think the Romulans suckered both into it, while making it look as if one of their victims suckered the other.
That, I think, is what you have to do when your ship is an assassin's Derringer, specifically built to give a love pat to a battle cruiser so that your assassins can do their dirty work inside. Chang's torps were duds, mere copies of low-level Federation warheads (the conspiracy required them to be convincing copies of such), so when going after a "victim" who toted a regular assault rifle, he had to be careful...
...And he had to hide from Kirk the fact that he only packed a Derringer against Kirk's AK-47. So he pretended to be a mad sadist, "taking his time", when in fact he was doing his very worst and it still wasn't enough. See his torps actually score hits - they do basically no damage at all!
...Which sort of improves his standing in the guts department, too.
Well, apparently he stands on the bridge of a battle cruiser at which photon torpedoes are being fired on his very own command... Solely in order to make his charade more convincing!
Chang's courage is of the strategic sort. He doesn't put himself on the line of fire foolishly, for sheer vanity, but out of ideological necessity.
Hmm. Chang abducting Shakespeare for the Klingons sounds sorta cute, but Khan knowing Klingon proverbs is the part that makes no sense. Khan has never met a Klingon, and the library he has down on Ceti Alpha V is his own, not a 23rd century one expanded with Klingon Klassics.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't dismiss your points but I'm not going to argue most of them because it would take more time than I have.
I admit there were holes in how Khan would know a "Klingon proverb". I'm saying the Khan's quotes came from the depths of his lust for revenge, Chang seemed to do it just for camp.
The bravery one though. I don't think your "He was on the bridge of his own ship that he knew was going to be attacked" really shows his bravery.
The BOP fired at the underside of the cruiser.....a long distance away from the bridge. And I'm sure Chang had some discussion with the BOP weapons officer before hand that went something like "I'm going to be here.....so fire here as far away as you can to minimize the risk of me being killed. Also target this area of the ship were it's less likely to cause damage for the ship to explode."
Sure there was always the off chance something could go wrong and the whole ship explode....But Chang would have taken every precaution he could to prevent this and accept the risk that remained as minimal. I guess you can call it brave, but don't make it seem like he was right in the line of fire in an extremely vulnerable position. He did everything he could do to make sure he came out of the attack unharmed.
And your derringer argument isn't bad.....But he didn't even use the shots he had well. If I have a derringer I'm aiming for the head or heart of my opponent. Not his knee or shoulder. Most of the shots Chang fired were at the saucer which isn't that vital. He didn't target the engines or anything vital.
Even Khan, who'd never attacked a starship, was smart enough to fire his first shots at the engine room knowing it would cause maximum damage.
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That line was great. He was already puzzled why the Enterprise hadn't just opened with all weapons and blasted him to bits and was just sitting there....now that puzzlement is added to by the fact that the enemy commander, out of the blue and for no obvious reason, wants a truce to confer.
It was like at that point he realized nothing about this made any sense and when he calmly said "Put him on the screen" he's saying "I don't know what the hell is going on here, but I really have nothing to lose so lets see what he wants."
...And I want to emphasize that I fully agree that Kruge is by far the more enjoyable Klingon opponent.
Those arguments were just among the host of possible viewpoints that one can have to the movies. But Chang is always going to be an underdog because he has to share the glory with multiple other villains of varying functions. Against Kruge, we only have Admiral Morrow, and perhaps "Tiny", both worlds below Cartwright and Valeris in dramatic standing.
It is even possible Chang was actually on BoP until the very moment it became evident that Kirk was not going to have a fight with Kronos One after all. Pretending to hail Kirk from one bridge while in fact doing so from another would be quite doable. And there might even be the off chance that Kirk would destroy Kronos One, if launching the intact Starfleet vessel against the wounded Klingon one at full force.
Very true. But one wonders if he had a choice - for a rare once, two starships didn't slug it out at a range of fifty meters, but at a separation of several torpedo-flight-seconds. Kirk ought to have been able to dodge and weave at least a little in his high-acceleration vessel, making the hits fall at fairly random spots.
Then again, the Excelsior gets the same treatment even though she has not yet learned it would be a good idea to dodge. Perhaps targeting from under a cloak isn't all that simple?
Timo Saloniemi
What I like about Kruge is that his motivations are entirely rational and logical. The Federation has developed a device that allows them to remake entire worlds in their image. That's arguably more imperialist than anything we saw the Klingons do in the Original Series. Sure, they want to subjugate alien worlds, but the Federation can now just wipe them clean.
Whatever about his methods, Kruge's motivations make sense.
Whatever about his methods, Kruge's motivations make sense.
Good points.
I also have to admit that age may have played a factor. Kruge was in his ass kicking prime and full of Klingon warrior spirit and adrenaline.
Chang on the other hand was obviously, like Kirk, a warrior past his prime. Maybe he was jaded by the system, like many people tend to become as they get older, and that explains his actions and attitude as being as brave or gung-ho as Kruge. Certainly Kirk was a much different person in TUC than in TOS.
Maybe in his prime Chang was a total bad ass Klingon warrior like Worf who was all about the warrior spirit and honor and so forth and those were just things he lost over the years until he was a shell of what he was.
Maybe he had even seen so much violence and corruption in the Klingon government over the years that he felt they deserved what they were getting.
Would have been interesting to see him younger. I think Chris Plummer would have done a great job playing a younger and stronger Chang.
True, just imagine how many defense strategies the Klingons would have to be throw out just becuase the Federation used Genesis on a lifeless rock on the Klingon/Federation border in an area the Klingons hadn't ever bothered building defenses at because there were no habitual planets to fight over.
No, I like him in other things, e.g. BTTF. I love him as Prof. Plum in Clue. He's just not at all my idea of a Klingon.
I'm not a big fan of Chang either, to be honest. Maybe I just need my Klingons to have terrible teeth?
Maybe I just need my Klingons to have terrible teeth?
And overact. And deliver their lines in an over-the-top, over-dramatic fashion (while shouting)...
It all depends on how they say "Ka'plah!"
I must be honest -- until TNG rolled around, I though Kruge said "Kup! Kup!". It's not until you really listen to the subtlety of his pronunciation that you hear the actual word.
Hmm, I take that on board. But it's like I say about the Cold War: numerous things that were almost push-the-button incidents during that period can be looked back on now as the misunderstandings they really were. Perhaps Kruge didn't believe the rhetoric about the terraforming (which is his mistake, obviously), but that doesn't mean his motivations weren't, in his own mind at least, sound.
Obviously he made the wrong assumption, and in the eyes of our heroes (and therefore from *our* perspective too) he's the villain, plain and simple.
His actions are driven by paranoia. But they aren't, entirely, unjustifiable actions in themselves... from a certain point-of-view.
At that time in post-TOS / Klingon history, fear & paranoia was not part of their mindset, but inflating Federation (and by extension, human) hatred was. One might argue Lazarus ("The Alternative Factor") took dangerous actions out of his fear of the threat posed by his counterpart. Indeed, the counterpart threatened the destruction of all creation, yet his motives to achieve his goals were not intentionally murderous--driven by a long-fueled hatred, as in Kruge's case.
Kruge--being the strong villain he was--turned a clear as day terraforming technology into a lie about genocide, which he was itching to turn on its creators. At least Khan--in stealing the torpedo--originally wanted it for its intended purpose, only using it as a weapon after he was mortally injured.
Kruge cannot get such a break, especially when he mocked his crewman for mentioning the device's real purpose. He had a choice to see things realisrically, but made a conscious choice to see nonexistant threats--only to justfy his murderous motives.
Huh? What's not genocidal and threatening about Genesis? Even the Federation peaceniks would obviously employ it irresponsibly - their definition of the Shore Leave planet was "lifeless"!
And where do you get the idea that Khan wanted to create pretty rain forests rather than destroy inhabited worlds?
Timo Saloniemi
Wait a sec, I don't think it clear at all that Khan wanted it as a terraforming tool. He wanted it as a weapon, or at the very least a bargaining chip with the Federation.
Was he just going to make his own planet to rule, allowing for Starfleet to simply surround him in his palace and arrest him for murder?
Hmm, I take that on board. But it's like I say about the Cold War: numerous things that were almost push-the-button incidents during that period can be looked back on now as the misunderstandings they really were. Perhaps Kruge didn't believe the rhetoric about the terraforming (which is his mistake, obviously), but that doesn't mean his motivations weren't, in his own mind at least, sound.
Obviously he made the wrong assumption, and in the eyes of our heroes (and therefore from *our* perspective too) he's the villain, plain and simple.
His actions are driven by paranoia. But they aren't, entirely, unjustifiable actions in themselves... from a certain point-of-view.
At that time in post-TOS / Klingon history, fear & paranoia was not part of their mindset, but inflating Federation (and by extension, human) hatred was. One might argue Lazarus ("The Alternative Factor") took dangerous actions out of his fear of the threat posed by his counterpart. Indeed, the counterpart threatened the destruction of all creation, yet his motives to achieve his goals were not intentionally murderous--driven by a long-fueled hatred, as in Kruge's case.
Kruge--being the strong villain he was--turned a clear as day terraforming technology into a lie about genocide, which he was itching to turn on its creators. At least Khan--in stealing the torpedo--originally wanted it for its intended purpose, only using it as a weapon after he was mortally injured.
Kruge cannot get such a break, especially when he mocked his crewman for mentioning the device's real purpose. He had a choice to see things realisrically, but made a conscious choice to see nonexistant threats--only to justfy his murderous motives.
What part are you referring to where Kruge "Mocks" a crewman for "seeing Genesis as it really was"? I just watched STIII on netflix and the only dialog I can think of is when Kruge watches the Genesis Tape with 2 crewmen and asks both of them to speak, the first guy says, "Incredible, They can make Planets" The second Guy says "Great Power, to control, dominate." to which Kruge says something like : Yes, your woman at your side, children playing at your feet, and fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the federation, charming." It sounds like to me that he is saying that the federation has a huge advantage, and that The federation would use this to culturally stamp out the Klingons. (And probibly feared a federation with seemingly limitless resouces and the ability to establish habitable planets out of thin air. (The Genesis planet (and sun) was made out of a nebula) Imagine Kruges point of view, the federation can make planets, maybe even whole solar systems at will. and you are in a position to either put a stop to it or obtain the technology for your own people. He just saw something that could very easily been turned into a horrific weapon and siezed the moment to obtain it to level the playing field. Kruge is almost up there with Kahn in my book.
I am talking about its intent, development and testing, which is its in-universe reality--not the hate driven fantasies of a war mongering Klingon.
Where do you get the idea he stole the Genesis device specifically for another reason? He was not on a universe conquering quest (which was Kruge's spin job). The loss of his Ceti Alpha home would make the intended benefit of Genesis attractive to Khan and his people.
Moreover, he only used the device as a weapon when he was dying. Before that, he spent the entire film being quite comfortable in thinking he was going to destroy Kirk with the Reliant--not Genesis.
It was a mocking reply-his descriptions holding the bigger picture implications of a terraformed world in utter contempt.
Then Kruge was--among many negative things--was a hypocrite, as TOS Klingons had no problem with their active program of claiming worlds for their own use, over & over again.
Based on what? Lies? In "Day of the Dove" Kang's wife blurted out lies about Federation camps, but as in the case with Kruge, over the top, hate-motivated fantasies had no intelligence-derived foundation. In other words, the worst ideologues will create whatever is necessary to justify their reality-challenged ideas / actions, particularly when deadly.
Well, from the movie and the episode featuring the character. The bit about the space hippies was a different one.
Khan is all about killing and torturing and revenge. He isn't intent on turning Ceti Alpha V back into a merely "challenging" place where he can again "reign in hell" - he wants Kirk's head on a platter, and he wants nothing else. When offered the option, he opts right out of it.
We don't know what sort of a quest he was on when Kirk interrupted him and put him down on a wild planet to cool off. But all he could ever speak about was conquest and ruling. Even when his safety and prosperity depended on it, he couldn't keep that side of himself from surfacing (say, the dinner scene in "Space Seed").
Khan would use anything as a weapon, as seen - wrenches, life support systems, medical pressure chambers, little sand eels. There's no surprise when he uses Genesis as a weapon. But there's no indication that he would have any other use for it.
Naturally, Genesis is technically "useless": it can only be used once, after which Khan will be acutely out of Genesises. But Khan need not use Genesis if he can threaten with its use. And that only works in "evil" applications: Khan can't turn a dozen planets into paradises by threatening to use Genesis, but he can destroy, conquer or pillage them by wielding Genesis as his impenetrable shield.
How so? There's nothing hypocritical about fearing that others will do unto you what you didn't manage to do to them first. Kruge sees a competitive situation where both sides have the same goal but one is about to gain superior means.
Your hate-mongering campaign is entertainingly silly, but unfortunately it plays right into the Klingon camp by painting the opposite camp as nothing but blackpainters and insult-throwers.
Timo Saloniemi
No, you did not get that from TWOK and "Space Seed"; neither production said anything of Khan wanting a Genesis device (SS would not as it did not exist in 1967) for any other reason--and certainly not a destructive one at the point he stole the device. Again, he only uses it as weapon as he is dying / last ditch revenge attempt. With absolutely no evidence proving Khan stole the device specifically for a destructive intent, he was--more than likely--interested in its terraforming properties.
Khan was not using Genesis to inflict revenge on Kirk at the time he stole the device. He used the power of Reliant for that.
I'm not talking about the TOS episode, but his motives in TWOK. In the film, he was no longer talking about conquering populations--essentially picking up where he left off on earth of the 1990s.
You are pointlessly conflating the TV episode with his clearly altered motives in the film. In the film (where this Genesis discussion is relevant), Khan's motivation for stealing Genesis was not to use it against Kirk. If he was so motivated, instead of leaving Kirk "buried alive", he could have launched the device at the Regula asteroid and called it a day. Clearly, he had another reason for stealing the device, which you are dodging.
Stick to the actual film--not the equivalent of fan wank that cannot be shoehorned into a character with no mysteries regarding his reason(s) to be.
This from the guy who repeated the ridiculous, completely dismissed claim that Christine Chapel was "racist" for rejecting the artificial Korby.Your hate-mongering campaign is entertainingly silly, but unfortunately it plays right into the Klingon camp by painting the opposite camp as nothing but blackpainters and insult-throwers.
Er...yeah....
You have the order of those lines wrong, which changes the whole intonation of Kruge's reply. Torg delivers his line first, after which Kruge turns to Maltz:
Kruge: Speak.
Maltz: Impressive. They can make planets.
*That's* when Kruge digs into him about the idyllic setting with the flag of the Federation overhead, fluttering in the breeze. So, yeah, it's a big condescending mock (which he follows up with "STATION!").
Since we're discussing Christopher Lloyd's great interpretation of Kruge, it should also be mentioned that Maltz's diamertically-opposite putziness was a great delivery by Night Court's John Larroquette.
Poor Maltz. He didn't want to be there, and was probably just riding out the remainder of his enlistment, awaiting the day he could retire to a tropical island. He just wasn't into the Klingon thing.
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