Kruge: Good villain?
- Thread starter EnriqueH
- Start date
In retrospect, it's interesting really that only TWOK and TUC are the Star Trek movies that move the franchise forward. TSFS and TVH are reset buttons for the events of the previous movies, while TFF is a 'standard adventure of the Enterprise crew' (and is therefore a closed circle). TWOK and TUC are by far the most dynamic of all the movies in terms of introducing 'game changing' concepts (even if, in TUC's case, those concepts were telegraphed by TNG
).As far as reset buttons go though, I do at least find TSFS entertaining.
In a way Kruge was correct. It's a question of application, Genesis was both a terraforming device, and it was a powerful weapon. Depending upon how it was used.
It would seem that the most powerful weapon commonly carried was the photon torpedo, one Genesis torpedo would accomplish far more damage and death.
It sounds like you dislike Christopher Loydd and/or his performance, rather than the Kruge character. Is that a correct assessment? In my opinion Kruge was played to perfection by Christopher Loydd and is a lot of fun to watch. He's got a cool ship and a cool dog. He's got his own style of costume and he makes his crew call him "My Lord" and stuff like that, just to keep on his good side. And when they fail to do that ... he's not above zapping them with a ray gun, just to remind the others who runs the show on his ship. Hell, even his girlfriend can't get out of it, when he feels the urge to teach his crew a valuable lesson about following his directions to the letter. And when he wrestles that giant maggot on the planet's surface just to impress his underlings, I love that kind of bravado! He's larger than life and makes sure his Men don't forget it. A very nice follow-up to Khan ...
I think Kruge was a great villian. In many ways he set the template for the Klingons being brutal but noble in a way, which of course TNG took to a much greater degree. He was acting in what he thought was the best interests of protecting the empire and not just being brutal because that what Klingons did in TOS. He even had a small streak of honor that he showed when he gave Kirk 2 minutes for him and his gallant crew after Kirk asked for one.
The problems he had, and I will always believe this, are:
1. He came right after Khan, so he was compared to him by many people, and Khan is a tough act to follow.
2. He was a not too heavily disguised Christopher Lloyd. Lloyd was already well known as Reverend Jim on Taxi, a character played strictly for laughs, so some people had a hard time seeing him as a bad guy. Of course he became even more famous as Doc Brown in BTTF and people who saw ST III after BTTF had a REALLY hard time thinking of Doc as a cold blooded killer.
In fact I think some people who saw BTTF after TSFS retroactively made Kruge less evil in their minds because they just couldn't imagine Doc being like that.
I think he's the second best villian in the 1st 10 films behind Khan and he kicks the crap out of Chang in my opinion. I know a lot of people like Chang, but to me he was just a crazy ham instead of a truly fearsome antagonist. Plus Kruge was equal to Kirk in some ways, like when he called Kirk's bluff. All Chang had was the fact he could remained cloaked while firing....once that was gone it was game over.
The problems he had, and I will always believe this, are:
1. He came right after Khan, so he was compared to him by many people, and Khan is a tough act to follow.
2. He was a not too heavily disguised Christopher Lloyd. Lloyd was already well known as Reverend Jim on Taxi, a character played strictly for laughs, so some people had a hard time seeing him as a bad guy. Of course he became even more famous as Doc Brown in BTTF and people who saw ST III after BTTF had a REALLY hard time thinking of Doc as a cold blooded killer.
In fact I think some people who saw BTTF after TSFS retroactively made Kruge less evil in their minds because they just couldn't imagine Doc being like that.
I think he's the second best villian in the 1st 10 films behind Khan and he kicks the crap out of Chang in my opinion. I know a lot of people like Chang, but to me he was just a crazy ham instead of a truly fearsome antagonist. Plus Kruge was equal to Kirk in some ways, like when he called Kirk's bluff. All Chang had was the fact he could remained cloaked while firing....once that was gone it was game over.
Apparently, the original concept was that the maggots would have easily killed one or more of the Klingons, to show the audience how fearsome the creatures on the Genesis planet are... until somebody brought up the notion that the Klingons would, in fact, be the most fearsome things on the planet the moment they landed there!
I like how Kruge's storyline was running parallel to Kirk's rather than being a part of it till the film's climax. You have two starship commanders from the opposite side taking drastic measures to get what they want and when the two finally collide, things are changed. When you take Khan, Kruge and the Whale Probe into consideration, it's Kruge's action that gets a follow up in Star Trek VI.
He apparently took it very seriously. There's one scene where he addresses Torg, but Lloyd recognized that "Torg" didn't quite work as a Klingon name, so he asked Marc Okrand (creator of tlhIngan Hol) what he should call him.
So Okrand came up with something (I think it was tor'oq or or togh or something), and then Lloyd said that during the scene.
...at which point Nimoy yells "Cut!" and asks Lloyd why he isn't saying "Torg". So Lloyd says "I used his Klingon name!"
Nimoy then turns to Okrand, and asks what's wrong with "Torg". Now, the way Okrand tells it (he's my only source for this story), he did this with the tone of a director with a narrow schedule to kerp, so Okrand immefiately caved and said "Nothing. Torg's fine."
However, in the end, Lloyd pronounced it torgh, which is now the canonical (romanized) tlhIngan Hol spelling of Torg's name.
I honestly don't understand why Chang gets the love he does as a villain, I don't think he's nearly as good as Kruge and he is one of the weaker Klingons in general in the entire Star Trek franchise.....No I don't put him behind Klaa so don't anyone fly off the handle over that.
But let's compare the two:
Motivations:
Kruge. However misguided he may have actually been, he did truly believe Genesis was a major threat and he was acting in the best interests of protecting the Klingon Empire.
Chang. Unless he was a complete moron, he knew the Klingon Empire was in trouble and probably wouldn't survive unless peace was made. But he loved war so much and couldn't stand the idea of his life without it. So everything he did was for his own personal benefit and not that of the Empire.
Smarts:
Kruge was smart enough to know that something wasn't quite right when the Enterprise didn't return fire immediately and has enough confidence to call Kirk's bluff when he tried to get Kruge to surrender. Was also smart enough to know that killing one of the three would show Kirk he meant business and not give up any advantage since he still had 2 hostages left. Was also smart enough to know what the countdown Torg played over the communicator meant....but was too late....although it made for a great reaction on his part.
Chang:
I guess you could say he was smart based on the conspiracy, but it didn't seem like he masterminded it. He also showed a certain level of intelligence to go along with it like he did. But then he shows a distinct lack of intelligence by not simply opening fire on the Enterprise a fast as he could to destroy it. Instead he fires a torpedo every 30 seconds or so, taunts Kirk, says some Shakespeare and fires another torpedo....giving the Enterprise crew time to think of a way to destroy him.
Guts/Bravery:
Kruge: Goes down to the surface personally to investigate. Returns to the ship to lead the attack against the Enterprise. When the Enterprise hits him with two torpedoes he quickly orders all emergency measures and decides to go out fighting by firing a torpedo back although he thinks it'll be useless......of course the shot does prove fatal. Beams down to confront Kirk one on one and shows he's not afraid to die as the planet is destroying itself. Would rather die and take Kirk with him (which of course fails) rather than surrender.
Chang: Shows no bravery whatsoever. His only means of attack is to fire while remaining invisible. Once he realizes he's about to be hit he just sits there saying "To be or not to be." Doesn't order evasive action, doesn't open up with everything he's got, doesn't try to ram the Enterprise. Just passively lets his ship get destroyed.
Honor:
Kruge: Does show he has a little bit of honor for his enemies. Most notable when he gives two minutes for Kirk and his "gallant" crew when Kirk asked for one. Yes he kills a crew member for destroying Grissom, but it's a pretty good guess this is not uncommon for Klingons to kill subordinates if they fail. Also has a hostage killed, but is done to try and gain the upper hand in a life and death struggle....not for pleasure or revenge.
Chang: Has none. Conspires to has his own chancellor, and many fellow Klingons, killed and frame others for it, even actively accusing Kirk for having no honor and prosecuting them. Cares more for his own desires than the Empire's best interests. Attacks from a position where he is practically invincible......yeah it's a smart way to attack, but for Klingons who are all about face to face combat, it's pretty chicken shit.
Finally Kruge does come off as menacing and formidable in his words and actions. Chang is just sneaky and deceitful, the only time he actually sounds a little tough is when he talks to Kirk about how all warriors are cold warriors.
Finally I know Chang saying Shakespeare was supposed to mimic Khan quoting Moby Dick, but really didn't make much sense. Khan was stranded for 15 years and had become so consumed with rage and revenge that he mirrored Ahab with Kirk being his white whale. Khan also said the quotes at times that mirrored what was happening in the film and his emotions at that moment like when he says his last line. "For hate's sake I spit at thee." It was his farewell FU to Kirk....not just some line he said because it sounded cool.
With Chang a few of the quotes were ok, but most seemed like they were just shoved in there to say "Hey!!!! Look at how well Chang knows Shakespeare" and there wasn't any reason or motivation Chang had other than to be taunting and/or annoying.
Kruge- Good villian. Great Klingon villian.
Chang- Somewhat entertaining. OK as a villian. Terrible as a Klingon villian because he's really pretty chickenshit in how he fights.
But let's compare the two:
Motivations:
Kruge. However misguided he may have actually been, he did truly believe Genesis was a major threat and he was acting in the best interests of protecting the Klingon Empire.
Chang. Unless he was a complete moron, he knew the Klingon Empire was in trouble and probably wouldn't survive unless peace was made. But he loved war so much and couldn't stand the idea of his life without it. So everything he did was for his own personal benefit and not that of the Empire.
Smarts:
Kruge was smart enough to know that something wasn't quite right when the Enterprise didn't return fire immediately and has enough confidence to call Kirk's bluff when he tried to get Kruge to surrender. Was also smart enough to know that killing one of the three would show Kirk he meant business and not give up any advantage since he still had 2 hostages left. Was also smart enough to know what the countdown Torg played over the communicator meant....but was too late....although it made for a great reaction on his part.
Chang:
I guess you could say he was smart based on the conspiracy, but it didn't seem like he masterminded it. He also showed a certain level of intelligence to go along with it like he did. But then he shows a distinct lack of intelligence by not simply opening fire on the Enterprise a fast as he could to destroy it. Instead he fires a torpedo every 30 seconds or so, taunts Kirk, says some Shakespeare and fires another torpedo....giving the Enterprise crew time to think of a way to destroy him.
Guts/Bravery:
Kruge: Goes down to the surface personally to investigate. Returns to the ship to lead the attack against the Enterprise. When the Enterprise hits him with two torpedoes he quickly orders all emergency measures and decides to go out fighting by firing a torpedo back although he thinks it'll be useless......of course the shot does prove fatal. Beams down to confront Kirk one on one and shows he's not afraid to die as the planet is destroying itself. Would rather die and take Kirk with him (which of course fails) rather than surrender.
Chang: Shows no bravery whatsoever. His only means of attack is to fire while remaining invisible. Once he realizes he's about to be hit he just sits there saying "To be or not to be." Doesn't order evasive action, doesn't open up with everything he's got, doesn't try to ram the Enterprise. Just passively lets his ship get destroyed.
Honor:
Kruge: Does show he has a little bit of honor for his enemies. Most notable when he gives two minutes for Kirk and his "gallant" crew when Kirk asked for one. Yes he kills a crew member for destroying Grissom, but it's a pretty good guess this is not uncommon for Klingons to kill subordinates if they fail. Also has a hostage killed, but is done to try and gain the upper hand in a life and death struggle....not for pleasure or revenge.
Chang: Has none. Conspires to has his own chancellor, and many fellow Klingons, killed and frame others for it, even actively accusing Kirk for having no honor and prosecuting them. Cares more for his own desires than the Empire's best interests. Attacks from a position where he is practically invincible......yeah it's a smart way to attack, but for Klingons who are all about face to face combat, it's pretty chicken shit.
Finally Kruge does come off as menacing and formidable in his words and actions. Chang is just sneaky and deceitful, the only time he actually sounds a little tough is when he talks to Kirk about how all warriors are cold warriors.
Finally I know Chang saying Shakespeare was supposed to mimic Khan quoting Moby Dick, but really didn't make much sense. Khan was stranded for 15 years and had become so consumed with rage and revenge that he mirrored Ahab with Kirk being his white whale. Khan also said the quotes at times that mirrored what was happening in the film and his emotions at that moment like when he says his last line. "For hate's sake I spit at thee." It was his farewell FU to Kirk....not just some line he said because it sounded cool.
With Chang a few of the quotes were ok, but most seemed like they were just shoved in there to say "Hey!!!! Look at how well Chang knows Shakespeare" and there wasn't any reason or motivation Chang had other than to be taunting and/or annoying.
Kruge- Good villian. Great Klingon villian.
Chang- Somewhat entertaining. OK as a villian. Terrible as a Klingon villian because he's really pretty chickenshit in how he fights.
Kruge was in the middle of the pack as a Trek movie villain. Lloyd's performance was entertaining, and the character was intimidating, but the movie also makes him come across as not all that bright. He has great moments like strangling the worm/snake and screaming "get out!" get out of there!" and his fight with Kirk. Still, there are other better villains in the movies, like Khan, Chang, the Borg Queen, and Soran.
Considering his hatred for bumpy-foreheaded aliens in general (as expressed in interviews for BSG), I'm grateful he didn't play Kruge.
Last edited:
^ Olmos hated the concept of aliens in BSG, but that's because it would have been inappropriate to use them in that specific show. There's no indication he felt that way about ALL aliens in scifi. Hell, this is Trek, he should expect there to be a shit-ton of them.
(If he had objected to the Klingon makeup - which would be unlikely, since he surely knew what Klingons are supposed to look like when he auditioned - they could always have made him a QuchHa' or something.)
As for ST III: I love the bit when Torg reports that the Enterprise is hailing and Kruge just sort of shrugs and quips "...put him on screen!" The tone in his voice when he says that line is hilarious.
"What...does...the...yellow...alert...mean?"
(If he had objected to the Klingon makeup - which would be unlikely, since he surely knew what Klingons are supposed to look like when he auditioned - they could always have made him a QuchHa' or something.)
As for ST III: I love the bit when Torg reports that the Enterprise is hailing and Kruge just sort of shrugs and quips "...put him on screen!" The tone in his voice when he says that line is hilarious.
"What...does...the...yellow...alert...mean?"
^ Nerd alert: when Chang and his group are leaving the Ent-A in ST VI, he pulls out his communicator and says "DaH ma'cheH." I immediately looked up what that meant. 
("Ready to return now.")
As for the scene you mean: People rag on that part a lot, but I always assumed that Maltz had already been captured (notice that when Kirk arrives on the Klingon bridge, his crewmates are already there and are holding Maltz captive) and that Maltz was already expecting Kirk anyway.
("Ready to return now.") As for the scene you mean: People rag on that part a lot, but I always assumed that Maltz had already been captured (notice that when Kirk arrives on the Klingon bridge, his crewmates are already there and are holding Maltz captive) and that Maltz was already expecting Kirk anyway.
Klingon language police here! The phrases you want are:
jol yIchu'! ("Activate the transporter beam!")
and
DaH machegh. ("We return now.")
I seem to recall a number of Klingons saying HIjol! ("Beam me up!") in the various series. I would guess that's because that phrase appears in the "Useful phrases" portion of The Klingon Dictionary.
Regarding Kruge... I thought he was fine. Not great, but not at all bad. Much like Star Trek III, really.
Kruge felt like he was somewhere in-between the cunning Klingons of TOS and the barbaric samurai-vikings of TNG. He showed little regard for life - Klingon, Human or Vulcan - but his killing had purpose behind it; he killed to tie up loose ends, to show his officers the cost of failure, and to show his enemies the cost of resistence.
jol yIchu'! ("Activate the transporter beam!")
and
DaH machegh. ("We return now.")
I seem to recall a number of Klingons saying HIjol! ("Beam me up!") in the various series. I would guess that's because that phrase appears in the "Useful phrases" portion of The Klingon Dictionary.
Regarding Kruge... I thought he was fine. Not great, but not at all bad. Much like Star Trek III, really.
Kruge felt like he was somewhere in-between the cunning Klingons of TOS and the barbaric samurai-vikings of TNG. He showed little regard for life - Klingon, Human or Vulcan - but his killing had purpose behind it; he killed to tie up loose ends, to show his officers the cost of failure, and to show his enemies the cost of resistence.
Great post. I totally agree. Kruge is the second-best antagonist in the entire film series. Chang is one of the worst. A completely bloated, hammy, un-Klingon enemy that spouted Shakespeare inappropriately to make Nick Meyer feel like his film was "literate" and relevant.
I agree with the earlier statement that Kruge's Klingon was awesome -- he sounded like a no-nonsense natural, like someone saying "What the fuck, man?", not someone pretending to speak another language and hamming it up way too much.
Besides, I think you need to remember that the first extensive use of the Klingon language (as developed by Okrand) was in STIII. So if anything, you should be complaining that the TNG Klingons sounded nothing like Kruge.
Furthermore, there are other reasons why Kruge's speech intonations and cadence might be different. First, he might have a strange accent (maybe he's from Ketha Province, or perhaps Newfoundland). Second, he might have a speech impediment. Third, the Klingon language undoubtedly evolved over 75 years, particularly being integrated more with the Federation, so it undoubtedly sounds different in TNG.
Lastly, maybe Kruge hits the blood wine rather heavily -- explains the slurs and lazy eyes.
Last edited:
That's far from said. Supposedly, the Empire was saved from the Praxis fallout once the Feds stopped shooting at them. Chang could certainly have achieved the "Feds stop shooting" part by destroying the Federation.
Which is quite plausible a motivation as far as humans go; Klingons shouldn't stray too far from the human mold if they're to be relatable still.
Then who did? He stood to benefit the most: he got Gorkon killed, he almost got the war he wanted, and he held a solid position as the de facto leader of that war. Plus, his side needed that war, not just for Klingon entertainment, but because that was key to their continuing survival. It seems the deal was the sweetest for him, less so for Cartwright's side.
Which of course may prove that Cartwright and his cunning Vulcan strategists masterminded it all, and made the deal so sweet to convince even an arch-enemy to join.
Although personally I think the Romulans suckered both into it, while making it look as if one of their victims suckered the other.
That, I think, is what you have to do when your ship is an assassin's Derringer, specifically built to give a love pat to a battle cruiser so that your assassins can do their dirty work inside. Chang's torps were duds, mere copies of low-level Federation warheads (the conspiracy required them to be convincing copies of such), so when going after a "victim" who toted a regular assault rifle, he had to be careful...
...And he had to hide from Kirk the fact that he only packed a Derringer against Kirk's AK-47. So he pretended to be a mad sadist, "taking his time", when in fact he was doing his very worst and it still wasn't enough. See his torps actually score hits - they do basically no damage at all!
...Which sort of improves his standing in the guts department, too.
Well, apparently he stands on the bridge of a battle cruiser at which photon torpedoes are being fired on his very own command... Solely in order to make his charade more convincing!
Chang's courage is of the strategic sort. He doesn't put himself on the line of fire foolishly, for sheer vanity, but out of ideological necessity.
Hmm. Chang abducting Shakespeare for the Klingons sounds sorta cute, but Khan knowing Klingon proverbs is the part that makes no sense. Khan has never met a Klingon, and the library he has down on Ceti Alpha V is his own, not a 23rd century one expanded with Klingon Klassics.
Timo Saloniemi
Similar threads
- Poll
