Antonia
- Thread starter EnriqueH
- Start date
There's so many mixed messages about the Nexus in the movie.
Guinan says it's addictive (like crack, presumably) and almost impossible to leave once you're in there, and Soran is desperate to return there because it's the only place he can find true happiness. Yet, Picard and Kirk each come to the realisation that the Nexus is patently false with disarming ease (Picard a little quicker than Kirk, it must be said), and left there and went back to Veridian III in a microsecond.
As a concept in a TV episode, ala the space device in "The Inner Light", I think good things could've been done with the Nexus. But the movie doesn't do any of them, because by the point they finally get into the Nexus, they've haven't got a lot of time left to resolve the plot and roll the credits. So they just kind of fumble the play.
Guinan says it's addictive (like crack, presumably) and almost impossible to leave once you're in there, and Soran is desperate to return there because it's the only place he can find true happiness. Yet, Picard and Kirk each come to the realisation that the Nexus is patently false with disarming ease (Picard a little quicker than Kirk, it must be said), and left there and went back to Veridian III in a microsecond.
As a concept in a TV episode, ala the space device in "The Inner Light", I think good things could've been done with the Nexus. But the movie doesn't do any of them, because by the point they finally get into the Nexus, they've haven't got a lot of time left to resolve the plot and roll the credits. So they just kind of fumble the play.
I think Kirk would have realized sooner or later that Edith Keeler was dead, partly because of him.
Janet Wallace had an old man fetish.
And Antonia... well, I had never heard of her before.
I have it on good authority that they thought of Carol Marcus for a while but changed their minds.
It wasn't the horse that hesitated (If it did, it could have killed them both), it was Kirk that felt apprehension each time, but not this time.
Well, that's a load off. I had begun to loose sleep and drink heavily.
Well, that's a load off. I had begun to loose sleep and drink heavily.
I know the feeling.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
You guys are forgetting something. Just before Kirk sees Antonia on the hill waiting for him, he makes the jump over the brook that he admits he used to do all the time and which scared him every time. As he tells Picard, it doesn't scare him this time. Kirk realizes it isn't real. Kirk realizes too that Antonia is not real.
Kirk however knows Edith was real. He also knows that he had to let her die to save the future of mankind. To have Edith in the Nexus would seem to me to be the shiny bow ribbon on the big bright neon sign in the Nexus saying "HAHA SUCKER! NONE OF THIS SHIT IS REAL!" and for Kirk, that isn't enough of a way of life for him. If the Nexus is supposed to be utter contentment, then yes Edith being there could certainly and believably fufill that function. However, contentment for Kirk isn't in being with the love of his life. Why not Miramanee? Why not Carol? The scene as it plays out reveals not that Antonia was the "joy he coudl wrap himself up in a blanket with," but perhaps rather Kirk being there, ready when Picard needs him to help and to make a difference one more time -- that's Kirk's contentment. To matter.
We see it all through the beginning of the film, that he's dead weight to the crew of the Enterprise-B, despite being celebrated. It's why he jumps to action when the crisis with the Lakul starts, and it's why he's willing to go below decks to play Jenga with the engine parts or whatever the hell he does to save the day. And it's why he decides to go back with Picard to try to stop Soran, even though "the odds are against us and the situation's grim."
Generations has a lot of problems with its script and story, but Antonia is not one of them.
Kirk however knows Edith was real. He also knows that he had to let her die to save the future of mankind. To have Edith in the Nexus would seem to me to be the shiny bow ribbon on the big bright neon sign in the Nexus saying "HAHA SUCKER! NONE OF THIS SHIT IS REAL!" and for Kirk, that isn't enough of a way of life for him. If the Nexus is supposed to be utter contentment, then yes Edith being there could certainly and believably fufill that function. However, contentment for Kirk isn't in being with the love of his life. Why not Miramanee? Why not Carol? The scene as it plays out reveals not that Antonia was the "joy he coudl wrap himself up in a blanket with," but perhaps rather Kirk being there, ready when Picard needs him to help and to make a difference one more time -- that's Kirk's contentment. To matter.
We see it all through the beginning of the film, that he's dead weight to the crew of the Enterprise-B, despite being celebrated. It's why he jumps to action when the crisis with the Lakul starts, and it's why he's willing to go below decks to play Jenga with the engine parts or whatever the hell he does to save the day. And it's why he decides to go back with Picard to try to stop Soran, even though "the odds are against us and the situation's grim."
Generations has a lot of problems with its script and story, but Antonia is not one of them.
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Yep, that was my point. We're beaten over the head with the fact that the Nexus is so addictive that you'll never want to leave it (Guinan), and if you do, you'll do anything to get back (Soran). And yet Picard and Kirk find it very easy to leave and never come back. This is the biggest flaw of all in the film.
The only way this would actually work is if Picard never really left the Nexus. His meeting with Kirk, return to the real world, defeating Soran, FC, INS, NEM, and all the rest never actually happened, and it's all just a Nexus-induced fantasy.
I would assume Enterprise under Spock would remain in service after her training crews as she's not have been damaged. A year later (assuming Excelsior didn't blow herself up testing the transwarp drive) Starfleet sends Enterprise with a trainee crew out to Nimbus III were the matter is solved due to the ship being fully functional from the start.
Enterprise remains in service until around the time of Khitomer-Praxis. One assumes that somehow the plot is foiled by Captain Spock or Captain Sulu (or even Captain Chekov assuming he gets promoted on USS Reliant by then). Enterprise is retired and a new USS Enterprise is launched as an Excelsior-class vessel (perhaps without an "-A"). The Nexus thing may or may not happen as is.
History presses on. Captain Picard eventually takes command of a new Galaxy-class starship. Perhaps named Enterprise. But would it be the NCC-1701-C/D Probably not. It might have a regular number like NCC-71811
Except Picard's life, especially in Nemesis, with Shizon and Data's death, is pretty depressing.
Well, okay, but it's also quite easily explained away - Picard and Kirk made conscious decisions to leave the Nexus, whereas Guinan and Soran were ripped out, and the trauma of the latter method is incomparably worse than the former process. (But they wouldn't know that; they'd only know how awful it was for them.) One could, if one were so inclined, make a crude analogy to different forms of sex, which I won't spell out any further. Fan apologism? Sure, guilty as charged... and it's a finding I can live with.
It should have been Carol Marcus, IMO. And I suspect the reason they invented a new lost love instead of using someone known, was the same penny-pinching that led to Nick Whatshisname being changed to Tom Paris, or T'Pau becoming T'Pol in ENT.
Carol, Edith, Janet, ANYONE would've been better than Antonia.
Greg explained it so much better than I did.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Meh. All it means is that Kirk had another love interest later in life. Hardly unbelievable, and also at the same time also not universe shrinking, either. I'm ok with that.
It's believable, it's just not very interesting. The result is an audience who doesn't really care about the scene they're watching. If they'd brought out Rand, Carol, Edith, then the fans would have been more invested in the scene.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
The movie wasn't about appealing only to fans though. Sure, it's a nice little bone to throw our way, but the point of the scene isn't that this is the love of Kirk's life. The point of the scene is that he realizes none of it is real. Had it been Edith, he absolutely would have known it was all an illusion. Had it been Rand, Carol or someone else (Ruth?), maybe it could have worked, but it's a lot of trouble to go to for something only a minor contingent of the overall viewership of the film would have really been able to appreciate.
Besides, I like the idea that there were still other love interests for Kirk after Carol.
Besides, I like the idea that there were still other love interests for Kirk after Carol.
I always figured that, in the future, England took over France and imposed their culture (and accents).
