Well, i have to admit that, if there was another character doing the same that Sisko did he would probably be known as a heartless villain who make everything to be able to have what he wants....
But then, again, he IS Sisko, the emissary.
DS9 = WORST Star Trek Series EVER
- Thread starter Tidus79001
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Well, i have to admit that, if there was another character doing the same that Sisko did he would probably be known as a heartless villain who make everything to be able to have what he wants....
But then, again, he IS Sisko, the emissary.
If Sisko hadn't done it though, wouldn't Eddington have done it to every single Cardassian planet in the DMZ?
I suppose it's the same argument as defending the bomb.
We have that defense so drum-beaten into our heads we don't even think of Hiroshima as a mass slaughter.
I suppose it's the same argument as defending the bomb.
We have that defense so drum-beaten into our heads we don't even think of Hiroshima as a mass slaughter.
Well for the time being at least, sure the Federation/ex-federation colonists might only want to drive the Cardassians out. But does the same hold true of the Cardassians? Would either side reach a point were they think it would just be easier to eridicate the problem once and for all. How much support were the Cardassian colonist recieving from the state?
It could just be the start of a slippery slope.
KM said:
May I call you 'KM'?
Your reaction to this is EXACTLY what the writers were going for. Sisko may be the Emissary of the Prophets, decorated Starfleet officer, the hero of this TV show - but like all of us, he is a flawed human being. This is the impact of the 'I'm not Picard' line. He is not intended to be a 'superhero' or some sort of morally or ethically impeccable standard of humanity (as TNG writers made Picard out to be) - he's like the rest of us.
This is represented really well in Sisko and Q's confrontation. Q tests Picard as he is supposed to be some figurehead of humanity. Picard responds to these tests as expected - he proves exactly what humanity is capable of. Is humanity, in reality, a representation of this ideal, or is it just what it is? It is what it is. So Sisko punches him in the mouth, as the rest of us non-representatives of the 'human ideal' would have done.
Precisely! Appalling as it is in context, it is the kind of tit-for-tat that most people would approve of.
Moreover, Picard himself did not bring those who justice who practiced retribution in this fashion: Kevin Uxbridge and KIla Marr.
Bad Thoughts said:
I'm curious how one could disapprove of Sisko's actions in this episode, and at the same time think 'In The Pale Moonlight' is one of DS9's best episodes, when in the latter Sisko's break from traditional Starfleet morals (which really are represented by Picard, he's always the 800 lb gorilla in the room on ethical issues) actually cause mortal consequences.
I'll just say that "For The Uniform" resembles the film "Fail-Safe," asking whether morally repugnant actions might still be necessary.
The ethical consequences of Sisko's actions in 'For The Uniform' are largely intangible. Nothing really happens, except "Javert" actually wins, Eddington's fantasy gets played out (for now), and a couple people have to move. In 'In the Pale Moonlight', Sisko's moral gamble actually gets people killed.
Oh for sure. There seems to be a discrepancy in the judgement of Sisko's decisions in these two situations - arguably, putting Eddington in jail also saves millions of lives. That's all I'm pointing out - my personal opinion is that Sisko made the right choice in both cases.
I believe that Bashir would have something to say about that, given how he reacted in Inter Arma... But we'll never hear his opinion about it, because either it would make him sound like a hypocrite or it would cause a grudge between him and Sisko.
Jadzia sounded like a airhead that would have been on Sisko's side no matter what. Her stupid remark about Victor Hugo's style while Sisko was discussing his plans made her seem like the designated blond of the moment.
Kobyashi Maru said:
Sound like a hypocrite, or be a hypocrite? I guess the difference is whether or not one acts on an ethical conflict. Sisko did act. In both situations, he questions his own decisions, but in the end, he makes a decision and rolls with it. Bashir is wishy-washy about EVERYTHING, he's literally too smart for his own good which is why he's stuck in the lab, making easy ethical choices.
He did unwittingly play into Sloan's hands though but he got his revenge later and caused Sloan to kill himself.
Partially, because Bashier is a walking hypocrite, due to his genetic engineering. He is illegal engineering serving in one of the Federation's largest organization.
As for Sisko, I think "In the Pale Moonlight" is one of the best episodes not because of Sisko's decision, but the fact that it is willing to expose the ethical challenges that Starfleet officers go through, and that there is not always a clear cut answer. Even the end leaves the doubt that Sisko is unconvinced his choice was the right one.
I like that it leaves it to the audience member to decide how they feel. Its a good episode precisely because there is not a pat answer.
YMMV
By the time Bashir's brain actually calculates the infinite number of possibilities, potential outcomes, potential consequences, this poor guy has no idea what his actual stance on anything is, if it's whether or not he should take a poo in the morning or advise the Federation to surrender to the Dominion.
This is why medicine is a good field for him, the ethical standards don't require much thought. 'Save this person's life' or 'don't' - he has the Hippocratic Oath to guide him when his programming isn't sure, it's much less malleable than the Federation Charter.
He plays into Sloan's hands because he is human silly putty and Sloan is not. Sloan knows exactly how to play him and mold him, and he does because that is what Sloan does.
This is why medicine is a good field for him, the ethical standards don't require much thought. 'Save this person's life' or 'don't' - he has the Hippocratic Oath to guide him when his programming isn't sure, it's much less malleable than the Federation Charter.
He plays into Sloan's hands because he is human silly putty and Sloan is not. Sloan knows exactly how to play him and mold him, and he does because that is what Sloan does.
I will admit, when it comes to DS9, I don't really watch the first two seasons. However, when they introduced and featured the Defiant, those eps I would watch. "Blood Oath" is another one of my favorite episodes...not only did it bring back The Klingons Three (Kor,Kang, and Koloth), but I think it really showcased the talent of John Colicos who was able to take a character who was once a shrewd, ruthless, and cunning Klingon commander, and turned him into a sort of loveable lush who drank himself to stupors, recounting past glories, if not often all that clearly. And they developed his character from there in the few episodes he was featured in.
When "The Way of the Warrior" hit, suddenly I was hooked. Worf (probably my favorite TNG character) was brought in to try and reign the Klingons in, and the series just positively exploded for me from there. (WotW also brought the K't'inga class battlecruiser back into action.....BONUS!) My favorite episodes of DS9 were pretty much any that featured the Klingons. General Martok became my favorite Klingon character, hence my handle. Well, half hence....
One of my favorite "non-conflict" Klingon episodes was "The House of Quark". The looks on Gowron's face as Quark is reading down a bunch of financial ledgers was gut-bustingly priceless.
And among all the action and space battles that I came to love DS9 for, one of my alltime favorite episodes is "Far Beyond the Stars".
Also thoroughly enjoyed eps scattered among the seasons like "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Little Green Men", and "Badda Bing-Badda Bang".
Oh, and I was completely in love with Ezri Dax. So sad she was only in the last season.
For me, DS9 is, was, and always will be the best Trek series ever. Character development came in spades, action and adventure was high, the arcs were compelling, and the FX were ambitious for the small screen.
I love all Trek, fom TOS to JJ Abrams. I feel blessed to have been witness to so much entertainment and richness over the years. And DS9 was the best of the best when it came to tv series.
When "The Way of the Warrior" hit, suddenly I was hooked. Worf (probably my favorite TNG character) was brought in to try and reign the Klingons in, and the series just positively exploded for me from there. (WotW also brought the K't'inga class battlecruiser back into action.....BONUS!) My favorite episodes of DS9 were pretty much any that featured the Klingons. General Martok became my favorite Klingon character, hence my handle. Well, half hence....
One of my favorite "non-conflict" Klingon episodes was "The House of Quark". The looks on Gowron's face as Quark is reading down a bunch of financial ledgers was gut-bustingly priceless.
And among all the action and space battles that I came to love DS9 for, one of my alltime favorite episodes is "Far Beyond the Stars".
Also thoroughly enjoyed eps scattered among the seasons like "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Little Green Men", and "Badda Bing-Badda Bang".
Oh, and I was completely in love with Ezri Dax. So sad she was only in the last season.
For me, DS9 is, was, and always will be the best Trek series ever. Character development came in spades, action and adventure was high, the arcs were compelling, and the FX were ambitious for the small screen.
I love all Trek, fom TOS to JJ Abrams. I feel blessed to have been witness to so much entertainment and richness over the years. And DS9 was the best of the best when it came to tv series.
Partially, because Bashier is a walking hypocrite, due to his genetic engineering. He is illegal engineering serving in one of the Federation's largest organization.
As for Sisko, I think "In the Pale Moonlight" is one of the best episodes not because of Sisko's decision, but the fact that it is willing to expose the ethical challenges that Starfleet officers go through, and that there is not always a clear cut answer. Even the end leaves the doubt that Sisko is unconvinced his choice was the right one.
I like that it leaves it to the audience member to decide how they feel. Its a good episode precisely because there is not a pat answer.
YMMV
I don't think so. The end shows Sisko saying that he can live with his decision and ordering the computer to erase the personal log. That doesn't seem ambivalent to me.
Don't forget that Bashir causes Sloan to kill himself in the end.
