Keeping Ilia around

[EnriqueH]

I was reading "Return to Tomorrow" and read that Roddenberry wanted to keep Ilia around for future sequels, though Jon Povill (and others, I think) disagreed

I always liked Ilia and thought she was very interesting character even though we don't know much about her.

This is probably a testament to Persis Khambatta's portrayal.

I would've liked to have seen more of Ilia.

In recent months, it has occurred to me that the TOS movies have done a fantastic job of introducing new characters that were accepted, but they were always eventually sidelined.

Ilia, Decker, Saavik, David Marcus, Carol Marcus, all kinda came and went even though they were well-realized, acted and I think accepted.

I'm guessing it was probably to keep the core cast front and center, and it would've been challenging to keep incorporating these characters into an already rather large ensemble.

 

[T'Girl]

Or the introduced characters, I would have liked to have made Saavik a regular more than the others. Kept her through at least to the end of TVH, and maybe after that. Having Saavik interact with Valeris would have been great, I wouldn't have made Saavik that movies turncoat.

Ilia, it would have been interesting to explore the character in more depth, and through her her culture. If Decker had been retained as well there could of been a resumption of the their romance, a on-going B-story.

 

[Lexx Shrapnel]

How long do Deltanns live? She would had been great on DS 9.

 

[Orphalesion]

Would have certainly been a good idea, we hardly saw anything of her before she was dematerialized. Saavik would have been even better.
Ilia certainly had enough background to expand, and since a lot of the late movies acknowledged the age of the actors it might have been good to have 2-3 younger characters as well to have a generation theme going on. And I always like it when new characters are introduced to an existing cast.

However, with keeping Illia around for the movies I'd be afraid that it would have meant we never got Troi for TNG. If I had to choose between Ilia and Troi, I'd choose Troi.

Man, writing their names like that jus makes it even more clear how similar they are; Illion is an alternate name for Troy (hence the name Illiad)

 

[EnriqueH]

Troi was more human and relatable, but Ilia was more interesting to me because she was more "alien".

But on the flip side, Ilia might've been more alien to me BECAUSE we barely knew her whereas we got to know Troi pretty well pretty soon.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Plus Troi was supposed to be more relatable regardless of her being half-alien — if people can't relate to the ship's psychiatrist, she's going to have a hard time doing her job.

 

[borgboy]

I liked all the supporting characters from the TOS movies. I'd have been all for keeping Ilia around, and I'm still fascinated by the Deltans, but a big part of that is how mysterious they still are.
I definitely think that Saavik should've been kept for more movies. I'd have liked to have had more movies with David too, but his death was important to the story too. It raised the stakes and continued to affect Kirk for the rest of movies.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

However, with keeping Illia around for the movies I'd be afraid that it would have meant we never got Troi for TNG.

This was my first thought.

If I had to choose between Ilia and Troi, I'd choose Troi.

I agree that losing Troi would have been a shame, but I don't believe that it's a fair comparison. We got to see what Persis Khambatta could do, but she was Ilia for only half of the movie or so. If we had seen seven-plus seasons of Ilia, we might be saying what a shame it would be to lose her! But I really like Troi, and wouldn't want to have never known her. (I guess that means that I wouldn't choose to switch realties. )

Man, writing their names like that jus makes it even more clear how similar they are; Illion is an alternate name for Troy (hence the name Illiad)

Wow, thanks for that! Great observation!

Just to clarify: Ilion (Ἴλιον), has only one L. Same with the Iliad.

 

[EnriqueH]

Interesting.

TVH has always been my favorite Trek film, but I was disappointed they left Saavik behind.

I know they talked about Saavik being extraneous and being "another ear to hide" (I don't remember where I read that, but I remember the phrase).

But I don't see why Saavik couldn't have been left on the BoP keeping an eye on the ship.

 

[Orphalesion]

Troi was more human and relatable, but Ilia was more interesting to me because she was more "alien".

I agree that losing Troi would have been a shame, but I don't believe that it's a fair comparison. We got to see what Persis Khambatta could do, but she was Ilia for only half of the movie or so. If we had seen seven-plus seasons of Ilia, we might be saying what a shame it would be to lose her! But I really like Troi, and wouldn't want to have never known her. (I guess that means that I wouldn't choose to switch realties. )

Oh no no, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Ilia or Persis Khambatta in any way inferior to Troi and Marina Sirits (I actually quite wish that Khambatta would have been in more movies in general. And at least they did something bigger than black contact lenses to make her look alien in TMP)
I just really like Espers and I prefer TNG to the movies as a whole. So I'm glad that the concept ended up there, in my favorite Trek Series. That's why I'd choose Troi over Ilia.
If Ilia had been on TNG for 7 seasons I'd be equally happy.

....who else now tries to envision a bald Marina Sirtis?

Just to clarify: Ilion (Ἴλιον), has only one L. Same with the Iliad.

Oh man you and the paper on Epic Poetry I almost flunked last year because of the same spelling mistake, are of course right. Something about the letter "L" always makes meant to write twice as much as needed. The spellchecker takes care of things like "careful", but not of Ilion

 

[2takesfrakes]

Persis didn't really seem to understand, or get into the whole TREKKIE Fandom thing, or conventions and all that. In fact, some links were posted to the effect that her one-off at a convention was a bust, because nobody showed. But this was back in the day, when they had these things in Hotel lobbies and Banquet Halls, anyway, I guess. Not only that, I remember reading somewhere that Khambatta was actually hounded to present herself in the shower scene in TMP with Full Frontal Nudity and she was adamantly against that. In short, I doubt Persis would've wanted to come back to STAR TREK. But if these negative aspects were somehow negated by the prospect of HUGE DOLLAR SIGNS, well hell ... I'd be happy to see her in the other TOS movies as something else, maybe. Bring her back as a woman from India, why not? But what are you going to do? It was half a century ago, anyway ...

 

[EnriqueH]

Persis didn't really seem to understand, or get into the whole TREKKIE Fandom thing, or conventions and all that. In fact, some links were posted to the effect that her one-off at a convention was a bust, because nobody showed. But this was back in the day, when they had these things in Hotel lobbies and Banquet Halls, anyway, I guess. Not only that, I remember reading somewhere that Khambatta was actually hounded to present herself in the shower scene in TMP with Full Frontal Nudity and she was adamantly against that. In short, I doubt Persis would've wanted to come back to STAR TREK. But if these negative aspects were somehow negated by the prospect of HUGE DOLLAR SIGNS, well hell ... I'd be happy to see her in the other TOS movies as something else, maybe. Bring her back as a woman from India, why not? But what are you going to do? It was half a century ago, anyway ...

Great post, man!

You didn't, by any chance, get this great information from "Return to Tomorrow", did you? It's pretty fascinating and would like to read more. Where can I read up on this?

That sucks that she didn't have a good experience.

Do you mean that the fans didn't show to her convention appearance?

 

[Lance]

The thing is, TMP was written as a pilot episode for a TV revival, which is why Decker and Ilia were really conceived. Certainly Decker's main role, apart from paying lip service to David Gerrold's ideas about not sending Kirk down on dangerous missions all the time, was to exist as a "get out clause" just in case Shatner flew the nest. One suggestion I saw once even claimed that Shatner could be employed for the first 13 only, and then be flown in as a special guest star having handed the seat over to Decker.

Decker and Ilia because superfluous characters once it turned into a movie. Povill and others could see it, and were already spit-balling ways to get them out of the picture at the end. Despite Roddenberry's hopes for a sequel there was no guarantee of that. To all extents and purposes TMP was looked at by the suits as being a (very expensive) reunion special. Once the numbers were in they made the decision to proceed with more, but nobody had the expectation of it.

I forget who it was, maybe it was Harve Bennett or Ralph Winter, but somebody did once say the most infuriating thing about working on the Star Trek pictures was that there was never any forward planning. Each movie had a closed circle just in case Paramount didn't pick them up for another one, whereas if they'd had more faith in the franchise at the time they could've planned a few things ahead of time... like keeping certain characters from TMP around.

 

[EnriqueH]

Still, they did a pretty good job with that Genesis trilogy. They were standalone adventures but they were able to keep the arc going.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Not only that, I remember reading somewhere that Khambatta was actually hounded to present herself in the shower scene in TMP with Full Frontal Nudity and she was adamantly against that.

...Full frontal nudity in a film that ended up getting a G rating on its initial release? I find that very hard to believe.

I could see the notoriously horny Roddenberry proposing this, but anyone with any sense would realize that Trek had a huge kid audience, and any nudity or an R rating would cut off a huge potential audience to the film. Don't forget that Paramount wanted a movie to compete with Star Wars at the box office. To do that, you need kids in the mix.

...Are you sure you're not thinking of the story where Kim Cattrall had a photographer take nude pictures of her on the STVI bridge? When Leonard Nimoy found out about it, he hit the roof and had the negatives destroyed so as not to tarnish the franchise's image. When Mark Altman asked Cattrall about it for Cinefantastique, all Cattrall could say was, "I can't talk about that."

 

[EnriqueH]

No, he's right.

Roddenberry did propose this.

I was just reading that section of "Return to Tomorrow".

 

[JonnyQuest037]

No, he's right.

Roddenberry did propose this.

I was just reading that section of "Return to Tomorrow".

I figured it had to be Roddenberry.

Did you ever hear the story about how he proposed that all the Ferengi should have huge male members on TNG? Apparently he went so far as to describe certain sex positions the Ferengi would perform in a show meeting. Finally a writer had to point out to GR that TNG was a syndicated show that aired in early afternoons and Sunday evenings in some markets. Roddenberry went, "Yeah, okay," and dropped it.

Roddenberry was one horny dude, man.

 

[Maurice]

...To all extents and purposes...

I assume you meant "all intents and purposes", which means 'practically speaking".

Did you ever hear the story about how he proposed that all the Ferengi should have huge male members on TNG? Apparently he went so far as to describe certain sex positions the Ferengi would perform in a show meeting. Finally a writer had to point out to GR that TNG was a syndicated show that aired in early afternoons and Sunday evenings in some markets. Roddenberry went, "Yeah, okay," and dropped it.

Roddenberry was one horny dude, man.

The giant Ferengi dongs are suggested by the giant metal codpieces in this concept drawing from TNG's early days.

 

[Lance]

...To all extents and purposes...

I assume you meant "all intents and purposes", which means 'practically speaking'.

True. That's what I get for posting in a hurry.

 

[Lance]

Still, they did a pretty good job with that Genesis trilogy. They were standalone adventures but they were able to keep the arc going.

... although if you think about it, the Genesis Trilogy actually confirms what Winter was saying: the lack of forward planning, and the isolated nature of each instalment. Sure, they carry through one from the other, but on closer inspection each movie is applying a reset button to the last: Bennett himself admits he wrote TSFS with an intention of destroying the Genesis project from TWOK because he felt it changed the Star Trek format too much to allow this seemingly brilliant device loose on it, and then at the end of TVH we get the Enterprise back. On the surface we're invited to believe that the movies are changing the status quo and moving everything into new horizions, but closer inspection refutes that. Because studio pressure mandated that each movie had to provide a satisfactory conclusion just in case it turned out to be the last one.

If they'd had true faith in the franchise, as Winter describes it, then they could have had some sort of game plan in place for the sequels. But they didn't. Like Star Trek on television, it was imperiative that, whatever growth the characters themselves go through in their movie adventures, the format had to be rigidly reset to status quo in the end. Because rather than planning for more movies, every movie was assumed to be the last one.

(The irony here is that the only movie where the producers seem to have intended to follow-up with a sequel is Nemesis, which ends on an unsatisfactorily open-ended note... and ironically turned out to be the last movie in the Prime Trek series! )