How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?

[fireproof78]

Well, politics can only go so far. Obviously Pike had some pull, and it isn't a stretch to imagine Starfleet Command telling Pike to keep a tight eye on Kirk, due to Pike's recommendation.

Marcus' allowing back in the Captain's chair in ID was a means to an end, and shows about the trust that Marcus had in Kirk as Captain.

Perhaps, with Pike gone, Kirk will have to work much harder to demonstrate his ability.

 

[BillJ]

Marcus' allowing back in the Captain's chair in ID was a means to an end, and shows about the trust that Marcus had in Kirk as Captain.

I think he was trying to get Kirk killed. Trusting his need for revenge would override his common sense and start a war with the Klingons.

 

[fireproof78]

Marcus' allowing back in the Captain's chair in ID was a means to an end, and shows about the trust that Marcus had in Kirk as Captain.

I think he was trying to get Kirk killed. Trusting his need for revenge would override his common sense and start a war with the Klingons.

Yep. So, no indication about Kirk's capacity to command. Just that Marcus figured he had the personality to fulfill his plan. To quote Saruman, "Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him."

 

[DonIago]

Hell, Marcus may have had someone else in mind to take the fall until Kirk walked right into the situation.

 

[BillJ]

Criticism is a set of sharp tools. Lousy work crumbles when touched by them. Good work --- including the bits of good work buried in junk --- resists this crumbling, and stands the stronger when you can see the crumbling done.

But there's criticism and there's Star Trek fan criticism. We've taken it to a whole other level.

 

[Christopher]

Yep. So, no indication about Kirk's capacity to command. Just that Marcus figured he had the personality to fulfill his plan.

The proof of Kirk's capacity to command is that he proved not to be the clueless patsy Marcus was expecting him to be.

 

[fireproof78]

Yep. So, no indication about Kirk's capacity to command. Just that Marcus figured he had the personality to fulfill his plan.

The proof of Kirk's capacity to command is that he proved not to be the clueless patsy Marcus was expecting him to be.

Yes, which is why I enjoy Kirk's arc so much in both films. It is the development of a greater sense of responsibility outside of himself. It also seems to show more of a moral development for Kirk too.

I don't think I'm articulating it well, but hopefully that made some sense to some one

 

[Nebusj]

Criticism is a set of sharp tools. Lousy work crumbles when touched by them. Good work --- including the bits of good work buried in junk --- resists this crumbling, and stands the stronger when you can see the crumbling done.

But there's criticism and there's Star Trek fan criticism. We've taken it to a whole other level.

Well, yes, you have to learn what tools are likely to yield useful results and what ones are likely to yield fantastically stupid arguments. This is why they pay the English lit majors the big bucks.

 

[Ovation]

They do? Then it MUST be an alternate universe (at least if my Eng. lit major ex-roommate is anything to go on).

 

[Belz...]

I have lost appreciation for works of art when I analyzed them and found shoddy construction behind them.

I've also gained new appreciation for works when I realized they were more soundly built than I realized. Sometimes something I thought mediocre I came to view more warmly because I realized there was more to the construction than I would have appreciated if I hadn't thought about it more.

Criticism is a set of sharp tools. Lousy work crumbles when touched by them. Good work --- including the bits of good work buried in junk --- resists this crumbling, and stands the stronger when you can see the crumbling done.

I just want to be entertained. If the movie has good production values on top of that, so much the better.

 

[Commishsleer]

Criticism is a set of sharp tools. Lousy work crumbles when touched by them. Good work --- including the bits of good work buried in junk --- resists this crumbling, and stands the stronger when you can see the crumbling done.

But there's criticism and there's Star Trek fan criticism. We've taken it to a whole other level.

Still you could look at any other series and find as many faults as we find in Star Trek.
You could write books and books on the inconsistencies in a series like Dr Who.

We criticise it because we love it and want it to be better.
Or we just like one form of Trek and hate all others

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Criticism is a set of sharp tools. Lousy work crumbles when touched by them. Good work --- including the bits of good work buried in junk --- resists this crumbling, and stands the stronger when you can see the crumbling done.

But there's criticism and there's Star Trek fan criticism. We've taken it to a whole other level.

Still you could look at any other series and find as many faults as we find in Star Trek.
You could write books and books on the inconsistencies in a series like Dr Who.

And after a while it starts to raise the question of why you continue to watch it, if all you do every week is complain about it.

 

[siskokid888]

A thing that does bug me slightly about the 2009 movie, despite the changes to the character due to timeline mess-ups, is the assumption of a lot of people more familiar with 90s Trek that Kirk was somehow a hothead. Really ? A charmer, maybe, but watch TOS. Kirk is nothing but a level-headed, capable commander. Maybe not quite the diplomat as Picard, but still.

I always felt that nuKirk and origKirk are 2 different characters - nuKirk is what a fatherless and unguided origKirk might have become - and part of the nuTrek storyline is how nuKirk uses the inherent "Kirk talent" to become the man he can be and the hero we all know.

 

[siskokid888]

I guess the biggest problem with accepting Kirk's rise in rank as "politics" is that by the time of the third movie, he should be both Grand Admiral and President of the UFP...

Timo Saloniemi

"Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny"

 

[Christopher]

I always felt that nuKirk and origKirk are 2 different characters - nuKirk is what a fatherless and unguided origKirk might have become - and part of the nuTrek storyline is how nuKirk uses the inherent "Kirk talent" to become the man he can be and the hero we all know.

Yeah. A lot of people don't seem to get that these movies are an extended origin story. The characters aren't different from the ones we know because they're out of character, but because they're younger and haven't yet grown into the people we know.

 

[Cyke101]

I guess the biggest problem with accepting Kirk's rise in rank as "politics" is that by the time of the third movie, he should be both Grand Admiral and President of the UFP...

Timo Saloniemi

Well, politics can only go so far.

Sorry ya'll, when I said politics, I meant in the writers' room, as in the things Kirk must be depicted as per writers, execs, fan expectation, et all. For example, Kirk must be an effective leader, brilliant but dashing, clever and a little smug, must command a starship Enterprise by the end. I didn't mean to infer in-story politics.

But to Timo's point, I'd be very amused if Grand Admiral/President Kirk was impeached and found guilty, but his "punishment" is a demotion down to captain and given command of the Abramsprise-A

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Yeah. A lot of people don't seem to get that these movies are an extended origin story. The characters aren't different from the ones we know because they're out of character, but because they're younger and haven't yet grown into the people we know.

But there's the distinct possibility that they won't grow into the people we know, because of the differences in their upbringing. I suppose one could argue that, despite the Nero divergence, it's likely that a selection of people's paths won't change.

If you think about it, they actually blew it with the one person who did suffer a huge shift. Kirk's life should have been immeasurably different due to the death of his father. His character should be the one who has the hardest time coping with who he "should" have been. Yes, I get that Pike steers Kirk back on the path to Captaincy with his surrogate father-figure act, but the correction happens way too fast.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah. A lot of people don't seem to get that these movies are an extended origin story. The characters aren't different from the ones we know because they're out of character, but because they're younger and haven't yet grown into the people we know.

But there's the distinct possibility that they won't grow into the people we know, because of the differences in their upbringing. I suppose one could argue that, despite the Nero divergence, it's likely that a selection of people's paths won't change.

If you think about it, they actually blew it with the one person who did suffer a huge shift. Kirk's life should have been immeasurably different due to the death of his father. His character should be the one who has the hardest time coping with who he "should" have been. Yes, I get that Pike steers Kirk back on the path to Captaincy with his surrogate father-figure act, but the correction happens way too fast.

I can see your point and would have liked Kirk's arc to be extended out further, such as under Pike's command. However, I don't think he is on the correct path in the sense that he will become like the Kirk we know. I think he still has a lot of growing to do, and that the next film will be that proving ground for him.

I think the fatherless aspect still is a source of pain for Kirk and Pike's death will be a fresh take on that old wound, so he still has a lot of growing to do.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

for the life of me I can't understand how anybody can accept the way new Kirk got promoted

The same way I get past all the nonsense in all the other films*: chillax and just go with the flow.

* - except in two films**, when it just gets to be too much.

** - not the Abrams films.

 

[Smellmet]

Care to elaborate on which two films and why?