Dr Who 8x11- Dark Water

[Marc]

A Cyberman made a brief appearence in "Carnival of Monsters" and quite prominently in The Five Doctors (Their last team-up with the Master.)

one was a cameo appearance that wasn't essential to the story, the other wasn't a story in the 3rd Doctor's run.

Then how does that make it "Cybermen Stories" in the 3rd Doctor's run?

by me making a typo and leaving out a word that that would have made it "no cybermen stories" which was my point - some-ones else brought up Carnival of Monsters which wasn't a cyberman story.

 

[Brent]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

That is not a reason, IMO, to not re-introduce a character from the classic series, they've certainly done it before.

 

[Candlelight]

I agree the Daleks have been horribly overused, but the Cyberman and Master haven't been used nearly as much so I don't really see the issue there.

Heck, we probably saw the Cybermen a lot more frequently on the classic series. Or at least it kinda feels that way.

From memory Cybermen appearances in the classic series

1st Doctor - Tenth Planet
2nd Doctor - The Invasion
Wheel in Space
The Moonbase
Tomb Of The Cybermen
3rd Doctor - Cybermen stories
4th Doctor - Revenge Of The Cybermen
5th Doctro - Earth Shock
6th Doctor - forgotten the name
7th Doctor - Silver Nemesis

So 9 appearances over 25 years with 4 in the 3 or 4 year run of the 2nd Doctor which some might say was over usage but still a long way short of the Dalek Appearances.

The Daleks
The Dalek Invasion of Earth
The Chase
Mission to the Unknown/The Daleks Master Plan
The Power of the Daleks
The Evil of the Daleks
Day of the Daleks
Planet of the Daleks
Death to the Daleks
Genesis of the Daleks
Destiny of the Daleks
Resurrection of the Daleks
Revelation of the Daleks
Remembrance of the Daleks

14 Dalek stories compared to 9 Cybermen. Not that far different.

 

[Ithekro]

Four/Five series for the First Doctor.
Two for the Second Doctor
Three for the Third Doctor
Two for the Fourth Doctor
And One each for the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Doctors.

Though the old stories vary in length quite a bit with some having rather large episode counts.

 

[Captaindemotion]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

That is not a reason, IMO, to not re-introduce a character from the classic series, they've certainly done it before.

Putting in my tuppence, I'd say that the Master is the Doctor's Moriarty, Lex Luthor or Joker - he's his nemesis and arch-enemy. It was inevitable that the new show would use him at some time and a new audience could soon grasp who he was.

I'd regard the Rani as an attempt to create a female version of the Master but one who only appeared during (IMHO) the show's weakest era and has not reappeared, bad-penny like, the way the Master has over the decades. I don't think there's the same inevitability for her return.

For my money, when you have a female incarnation of The Master, it basically dispenses with the need for the Rani. You may very well disagree of course (and I'm guessing you do).

 

[Guy Gardener]

You don't think watching Rani and Missy in a cat fight to see who has flirting rights with the Doctor would be fun?

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Okay, I'm in!

 

[USS KG5]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

Well to be fair the Master was the villain in many absolute classic Who stories, the Rani turned up in two polished turds.

I'd take female master over Rani any day.

However, if they wanted to bring Romana back, I think they could pull that off.

 

[Sindatur]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

Well to be fair the Master was the villain in many absolute classic Who stories, the Rani turned up in two polished turds.

I agree that Time and the Rani is pretty awful, but, Mark of the Rani is a great Serial, IMHO.

 

[USS KG5]

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

Well to be fair the Master was the villain in many absolute classic Who stories, the Rani turned up in two polished turds.

I agree that Time and the Rani is pretty awful, but, Mark of the Rani is a great Serial, IMHO.

YMMV of course my friend

 

[Pindar]

Well to be fair the Master was the villain in many absolute classic Who stories, the Rani turned up in two polished turds.

I agree that Time and the Rani is pretty awful, but, Mark of the Rani is a great Serial, IMHO.

YMMV of course my friend

I like them both, Rani as Mel is priceless.

 

[Professor Zoom]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

That is not a reason, IMO, to not re-introduce a character from the classic series, they've certainly done it before.

I have a good reason: the Rani was a shit character. Basically, the Master-lite.

And, though the Master weakens it, having her back, certainly further dilutes the Last of the Time Lords thing, which dilutes the whole Gallifry is missing thing.

But, yeah, the Rani was a shit character.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ Gallifrey has been "accessible" twice now (TEOT & TTOTD). Someone resourceful could have slipped out.

And that's not counting the crack being Gallifrey all thru series 5. Again, with enough motivation, someone could have gotten through.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Or the fact that the TARDIS was easily able to get to the Gallifrey and back in Listen, albeit it was in the Doctor's personal past.

Mr Awe

 

[tomalak301]

And most of the audience would have had zero idea who the Rani is. In some ways, the Mster has a bigger impact (not a spelling error - Ms-ter).

By that token, they wouldn't have known who The Master was either, when first re-introduced in this new series. Gotta start somewhere.

That is not a reason, IMO, to not re-introduce a character from the classic series, they've certainly done it before.

Also, wouldn't newer fans of Doctor Who be curious about what some of these other villains from the Doctor's past would be like? I mean I know nothing of the Rani, yet I think it would have been great to see them, if they are introduced well. One of the things I liked about RTD was he and the writers explained things really well, and got newer viewers up to speed. This happened with the Dalek and the Cyberman and The Master. Like you said, people have to start somewhere, and to have a cliffhanger be someone who is new to newer fans but welcome for the older fans might make everyone happy. Besides, in a 45 minute episode, they could have revealed Missy, developed the Rani and got everyone up to speed and that cliffhanger would have had the same effect.

 

[Sindatur]

I doubt it was a fear that no one would know who The Rani was, because afterall, a whole Series was built arounnd The Great Intelligence, who, was a bit of a mystery for even many Classic Who fans, since there were missing episodes of his Classic stories

 

[Mr Light]

Isn't there not a single existing serial featuring the Great Intelligence?

 

[Sindatur]

Isn't there not a single existing serial featuring the Great Intelligence?

Web of Fear has been released on iTunes, if not on DVD, with a reconstruction of the Missing Episode, but, yea, Abominable Snowmen only has the one episode (But, of course, there is a Fan Reconstruction)

 

[Mr Awe]

I doubt it was a fear that no one would know who The Rani was, because afterall, a whole Series was built arounnd The Great Intelligence, who, was a bit of a mystery for even many Classic Who fans, since there were missing episodes of his Classic stories

I'm wondering if using the GI so prominently was a big FU from Moffat to Morris?

Mr Awe

 

[Sindatur]

I doubt it was a fear that no one would know who The Rani was, because afterall, a whole Series was built arounnd The Great Intelligence, who, was a bit of a mystery for even many Classic Who fans, since there were missing episodes of his Classic stories

I'm wondering if using the GI so prominently was a big FU from Moffat to Morris?

Mr Awe

Or, BBC may have asked him to do a story about the Great Intelligence, knowing Web of Fear was in the Pipeline, and that it drive more iTunes sales if people had a new Great Intelligence story to drive their curiosity when it was released (This is assuming BBC got the proceeds from the iTunes sales). Or (and this is probably the least likely) it may have been a happy coincidence