Dr Who 8x11- Dark Water

[davejames]

I agree the Daleks have been horribly overused, but the Cyberman and Master haven't been used nearly as much so I don't really see the issue there.

Heck, we probably saw the Cybermen a lot more frequently on the classic series. Or at least it kinda feels that way.

 

[Ithekro]

Well it has been nearly 5 years since we last saw the Master. The Daleks seems to be contractually obligated to be used once a series. The Cybermen just got a new suit style after six years so I suppose to justify costs they need to use them everyone once in a while.

They are suppose to be the larger threats to the Doctor/Universe after all. It was a Cyberman story were the First Doctor regenerated.

 

[publiusr]

Oddly enough: I really enjoyed the fact that they addressed the paradox of the Doctor saving Danny and why it'll never work by simply going back in time.

You have a non-sentient clone get run over. Danny is at home in his bed operating the clone like the tesselecta.

I get why they wanted to hide the cyberarmor. Don't get why only display bones to the families? Seems a bit gruesome.

One problem--calcium is an earth metal.
You should have seen nothing at all--and maybe that's why no one sees them. I was hoping they would burst out of their glass cases--Tomb style

Its Nethersphere, not Netherspace. The Nethersphere is the spherical thingy floating in the middle of the institute and a piece of Timelord technology. Its basically a huge hard drive that's storing the mind of the "dead" people, allowing Missy to psychologically manipulate them into accepting the Cyberman conversion process.

If they hit delete, they become a cyberman and willingly die.

The dead have no rights, so the Cyberment can go to some galactic court and say it was all willingly done.

A good legal move.

So we went from the "Master's Dalek plan," to "Revelation of the Cybermen"

So this is the new Tranquil Repose on Earth instead of Necros...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_of_the_Daleks

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

If they don't use the Daleks, they lose them.

 

[Stevil2001]

Meanwhile, Cybermen are stomping around London (again) and nobody seems to mind?

Also, 3W apparently advertises their services to the public, but Clara has never heard of them. Theory: They're in the future. Everybody from this time knows about 3W and is used to seeing Cybermen on the streets.

The busses didn't seem very futuristic.

Danny just being dead would seem to argue against it being any further out than Clara's own time.

Also the use-'em-or-lose-'em Dalek rule is only a rumor, and has never been substantiated. (Also weren't they not in series 6?)

 

[Candlelight]

Well it has been nearly 5 years since we last saw the Master. The Daleks seems to be contractually obligated to be used once a series. The Cybermen just got a new suit style after six years so I suppose to justify costs they need to use them everyone once in a while.

They are suppose to be the larger threats to the Doctor/Universe after all. It was a Cyberman story were the First Doctor regenerated.

Cybermen have now appeared in five penultimate episodes of a NuWho season; Army of Ghosts, The Pandorica Opens, Closing Time, Nightmare in Silver and now Dark Water. Seems to be a favourite.

 

[JRoss]

He wants to undo a decent character arc, that the previous showrunner established.

Yeah, becuase the Master deciding to get revenge on the people who screwed him totally means he was planning on reforming just like all the other times he's had to team up with the Doctor meant he was now a good guy.

Didn't the Ninth Doctor pretty much dismiss the idea that doing a nice thing for once equals redemption for a lifetime of horrible things back in Boomtown?

And I'm not one to believe in that either. But in the final moments of TEOT we see the Master realize that his madness and life course have been manipulations by the Time Lords. He decides to take his fate into his own hands. That's the development I'm talking about. And instead what do we get? More of the same omnimania. We cout have instead seen him as an antivillain.

 

[Mr Light]

I'm assuming that the 3W base exists in the future, and that the Cybermen walked out of the door into present day London. Hell, the entire 3W base is probably the interior of the Master's Tardis.

 

[Ithekro]

A Dalek was in the Series 6 finale.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yet another plot point Moffat introduces that he then later ignores. But let's not forget, he's clever!

Again, they'll open at the snap of his fingers... if they're unlocked. In this case at least, Moffat has ignored nothing.

Did they show either the Doctor or Clara locking the TARDIS doors in dream state shown in the episode? No.

How do we know then that the doors were locked, when we've seen both the Doctor (in "Forest of the Dead" et al) and Clara (in "Day of the Doctor") open the doors by snapping their fingers?

Lazy, dumb writing.

A writer isn't required to throw in a line to address every little detail to placate overly nitpicky fans. It's possible to figure something happened off screen and let it go. It wasn't essential to the plot (particularly since it was a dream sequence) and didn't need to be shown. It certainly didn't qualify as a plothole.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I'm assuming that the 3W base exists in the future, and that the Cybermen walked out of the door into present day London. Hell, the entire 3W base is probably the interior of the Master's Tardis.

Or there's another piece of Timelord tech that is a gateway.

 

[Sindatur]

Meanwhile, Cybermen are stomping around London (again) and nobody seems to mind?

Also, 3W apparently advertises their services to the public, but Clara has never heard of them. Theory: They're in the future. Everybody from this time knows about 3W and is used to seeing Cybermen on the streets.

Another alternate twist on Spare Parts? Rather than Upgrading to Cyber Parts in life, Missy has organized a Spare Parts kind of scheme, where the deceased's consciousnesses are being transferred into Cyber-Bodies, so the Public can interact with their deceased loved ones? Therefore they are accustomed to the regular appearances of the Cybermen, like in the Pete's World 2-Parter?

I hope Missy isn't just a one shot. Since who we've been dealing with all season is MISI (The last "I" is Interface, so, if it went wrong ratings-wise, there was an out, that The Master may not even look like Missy or be female. I hope they bring her back in the future as the current incarnation of The Master

 

[Nightowl1701]

If they don't use the Daleks, they lose them.

Lose them to what? Where are they going to go? Terry Nation couldn't get the Daleks' their own solo series at the height of the classic show's popularity, what makes his heirs think they could pull it off? Besides, it's not like the Doctor's got a shortage of other villains to face...

 

[Kemaiku]

But in the final moments of TEOT we see the Master realize that his madness and life course have been manipulations by the Time Lords. He decides to take his fate into his own hands. That's the development I'm talking about. And instead what do we get? More of the same omnimania. We cout have instead seen him as an antivillain.

That's how I saw it. But consider that even if he killed Rassilon and was healed by the TL medics, he would have been in care for some time as they repaired whatever it was that was fundmentally wrong with his resurrection.

Being looked after by the dissidents who were cracked down on under Rassilon's rule, being treated with some respect and gratitude might have changed him in that time.

To just have the hard reset to 'generic bad guy' for no discernable reason, ignoring what had to have happened in the Time Lock, being able to circumvent it when the greatest minds of all the Time Lords and all their technology has been right there all the time and not done so...'meh' doesn't cover it.

 

[doubleohfive]

Again, they'll open at the snap of his fingers... if they're unlocked. In this case at least, Moffat has ignored nothing.

Did they show either the Doctor or Clara locking the TARDIS doors in dream state shown in the episode? No.

How do we know then that the doors were locked, when we've seen both the Doctor (in "Forest of the Dead" et al) and Clara (in "Day of the Doctor") open the doors by snapping their fingers?

Lazy, dumb writing.

A writer isn't required to throw in a line to address every little detail to placate overly nitpicky fans. It's possible to figure something happened off screen and let it go. It wasn't essential to the plot (particularly since it was a dream sequence) and didn't need to be shown. It certainly didn't qualify as a plothole.

I didn't suggest that. I was pointing out an inconsistency with the writing, one of many that have added up over the years under Moffat's rule.

Also, with all due respect: I'm quite aware of what writers are required and not required to do, particularly in television. Moffat is perfectly able to make the choices he makes. That doesn't however mean they are good choices.

 

[DWF]

Meanwhile, Cybermen are stomping around London (again) and nobody seems to mind?

Also, 3W apparently advertises their services to the public, but Clara has never heard of them. Theory: They're in the future. Everybody from this time knows about 3W and is used to seeing Cybermen on the streets.

Another alternate twist on Spare Parts? Rather than Upgrading to Cyber Parts in life, Missy has organized a Spare Parts kind of scheme, where the deceased's consciousnesses are being transferred into Cyber-Bodies, so the Public can interact with their deceased loved ones? Therefore they are accustomed to the regular appearances of the Cybermen, like in the Pete's World 2-Parter?

I hope Missy isn't just a one shot. Since who we've been dealing with all season is MISI (The last "I" is Interface, so, if it went wrong ratings-wise, there was an out, that The Master may not even look like Missy or be female. I hope they bring her back in the future as the current incarnation of The Master

Missy has two hearts so she in the current incarnation of the Master.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Did they show either the Doctor or Clara locking the TARDIS doors in dream state shown in the episode? No.

How do we know then that the doors were locked, when we've seen both the Doctor (in "Forest of the Dead" et al) and Clara (in "Day of the Doctor") open the doors by snapping their fingers?

Lazy, dumb writing.

A writer isn't required to throw in a line to address every little detail to placate overly nitpicky fans. It's possible to figure something happened off screen and let it go. It wasn't essential to the plot (particularly since it was a dream sequence) and didn't need to be shown. It certainly didn't qualify as a plothole.

I didn't suggest that. I was pointing out an inconsistency with the writing, one of many that have added up over the years under Moffat's rule.

Also, with all due respect: I'm quite aware of what writers are required and not required to do, particularly in television. Moffat is perfectly able to make the choices he makes. That doesn't however mean they are good choices.

Doesn't mean taking time out to explain it would be the better choice if we're speaking in negatives.

The criticism was his choice was lazy writing. I disagree entirely and think the alternative of writing just to include some nitpicky explanation is fanwank, pure and simple. There's no good reason to explain it. Not only was it not lazy writing, I'd argue it was the better alternative. Particularly since it was a dream sequence anyway. If the Doctor was actually locked out and had to devise a way back in, that would be different.

 

[doubleohfive]

A writer isn't required to throw in a line to address every little detail to placate overly nitpicky fans. It's possible to figure something happened off screen and let it go. It wasn't essential to the plot (particularly since it was a dream sequence) and didn't need to be shown. It certainly didn't qualify as a plothole.

I didn't suggest that. I was pointing out an inconsistency with the writing, one of many that have added up over the years under Moffat's rule.

Also, with all due respect: I'm quite aware of what writers are required and not required to do, particularly in television. Moffat is perfectly able to make the choices he makes. That doesn't however mean they are good choices.

Doesn't mean taking time out to explain it would be the better choice if we're speaking in negatives.

I don't think I ever suggested he should. I simply pointed out that it was stupid to expect us to ignore something that had been well-established if he expected to be pulling the wool over our eyes for the opening minutes of that scene. It's not clever.

The criticism was his choice was lazy writing. I disagree entirely and think the alternative of writing just to include some nitpicky explanation is fanwank, pure and simple. There's no good reason to explain it. Not only was it not lazy writing, I'd argue it was the better alternative. Particularly since it was a dream sequence anyway. If the Doctor was actually locked out and had to devise a way back in, that would be different.

My criticism of the episode as a whole was that it was dumb, lazy writing, which i detailed in my first post and reiterated when arguing the point about the keys/snapping of fingers.

I'm pleased as punch you liked it and disagree with me. There are plenty of choices that get made while writing episodes of shows, and this one, to me was arguably one of them among many in the episode I simply did not care for.

 

[Photoman15]

Besides the finger snap unlock, the Doctor was never worried (had it been real). Apparently Clara doesn't know about the key above the POLICE BOX sign on the outside.

 

[Mr Awe]

I didn't suggest that. I was pointing out an inconsistency with the writing, one of many that have added up over the years under Moffat's rule.

Also, with all due respect: I'm quite aware of what writers are required and not required to do, particularly in television. Moffat is perfectly able to make the choices he makes. That doesn't however mean they are good choices.

Doesn't mean taking time out to explain it would be the better choice if we're speaking in negatives.

I don't think I ever suggested he should. I simply pointed out that it was stupid to expect us to ignore something that had been well-established if he expected to be pulling the wool over our eyes for the opening minutes of that scene. It's not clever.

Again, you're missing the point of the scene. The point isn't how the Doctor gets back into the TARDIS. It's a dream.

Also, do you think that maybe Clara would know a bit more about how it works than you? Perhaps she knows that if you destroy all 7 keys the door is locked for good? I mean, we didn't even know there were 7 keys or they could be destroyed by a volcano.

So, who knows what else she knew that made her think he'd be locked out. But, it's not hard to figure some explanation like that out for yourself if you try. She knows the Doctor and the TARDIS very well.

Just because you reside in Hollywood doesn't mean you magically know more about TV shows than the rest of us.

Mr Awe