Whilst I didn't care for that setting, perhaps what could of been done is for different people to see different things, if the goal was to make them feel more comfortable, then each crew member would see something different that would make them feel more comfortable.
Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link
- Thread starter Praxius
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Whilst I didn't care for that setting, perhaps what could of been done is for different people to see different things, if the goal was to make them feel more comfortable, then each crew member would see something different that would make them feel more comfortable.
Oh, gah, the banjo!
correct me if I'm wrong but when they get creative we get Threshold.
They often blamed the time factor to which they had to turn scripts out.
I personally have seen some talented writers in the fandom who are far more superior in their passion for these series, than even I am. Too bad they refuse to collab with any of them. Fresh blood maintaining the vision of Roddenberry swirling in updated fwd thinking.
I longed for a glimpse into the future too and less connection to the oast but not too less. We cannot forget from where we came to understand why we grow in the first place.
but as they said on the DVD extras they were afraid to even attempt music for thinking we wouldn't embrace it. Well yeah if it sounded like a mating ritual mix tape or something. I can't think of an apt comparison this early :-)
You go get a gifted, creative musician! They got a man who made that exquisite Main Theme; surely it can be done! Make us feel spirited away with our imagination or for some of us appeal to the mathematically inclined.I see possibilities and they got scared. Which might have to do with politics in their workplace that I don't realize.
Picard's Enterpise got into a drag-race with a train near the end.
The first one to to get to Petty Coat Junction won.
The first one to to get to Petty Coat Junction won.
TNG and DS9 took a while to build up their strength too. And TNG's premiere wasn't that good either.
DS9 didn't do much with it's first few episode either.
VOY was the first Trek show to get a hatedom. I think that says something.
Hardly so. TWOK had its own share of haters due to the extreme diversion from what had been originally shown in TOS and TMP. I have known fans, personally, who do not care for any Trek outside of TOS, and find TNG to be "not Trek."
The thing with VOY is just that it had a larger audience, due to the increase in the popularity of Trek at the time, with TNG and DS9. TNG had found its footing and was pretty consistent in terms of quality. DS9, likewise, had found its footing as well.
People had forgotten about the growing pains of TNG and DS9 and were expecting the same from VOY due to how Trek had been presented over in the past.
It can be argued that expectations for VOY were set unreasonably high, but that came from the powers that be, but this has been discussed before.
VOY's problems were not new to Trek, were not new to any show, and it had 7 years to iron out is problems. The problem was a lack of quality product, and poor product is not the fault of the consumer.
I was listening to SF Debris, who probably among VOY's harshest critics at times, and he made note of the following, which I found interesting. When Jar Jar Binks proved unpopular in the first prequel film, Lucas reduced his role to a view scenes. In contrast, when there was dissatisfaction with Neelix as a character, and it was time to get rid of a character, with Seven of Nine's arrival, the choice was made to get rid of Kes, who was talented, competent and growing as a character.
Like I said, it is all in the quality of the product. Something that VOY never seemed to nail down.
You could argue that VOY had an easier time initially than either TNG or DSN. Remember when TNG was bieng created there was a segment of people who where dead set against it because it wasn't TOS, same for DSN because it was set onboard a space station rather than a starship "It'll never work". Which in both cases was generally proven wrong TOS could be build upon and yes Star Trek could work with a space station setting. So unlike those shows VOY had some preconvied notions of this idea wil never work weaked because it's predessor shows showed that new ideas could work.
But has anyone in this thread actually stated they hate VOY?, sure there has been some expressions of disspointment and critisims of where they thing VOY went wrong but I don't recal anyone really saying they hate VOY.
Of course one must also examine the time period in which they were filmed/aired what audiances expected in 1995 might not be the same of what they expected in 1987.
The Bell riots, while hardly riveting or particularly futuristic, were at least an important piece of earth history to Our Heroes that was in the viewers future. Really would have appreciated this happening a whole lot more!
And that includes some of the TOS cast, who spoke publically of their disdain for the idea of the new show.
https://ia600605.us.archive.org/Boo...ip&file=117_jp2/117_0008.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0
Those people are worthless reactionaries.
Due to neither being based on an unsustainable premise.
Exactly, they forgot those shows had problems too.
When the problems are conceptual, then I'm not sure that even 7 years is enough time.
SFDebris is a whiny bitch.
It was Kim who was going to be killed off by the 8472 aliens in "Scorpion" but then Garrett Wang won some "Most Beautiful" listing in some magazine and got coverage from it. They chose to drop Kes instead because apparently Jennifer Lien also had drug problems.
I reealllly wanted them to axe Kim. I didn't have a problem with him but when I saw him in sickbay I thought "He's a gonner." And it would have been deep because he was a bridge officer. It was a serious episode so it would have been Woah, s***!" But noooooo. Doctor becomes super EMH ever since scorpion. You could tell he was pulling that cure out his holographic butt because Kim shouldn't have survived that. The Borg billions of minds couldn't figure it out.
And if they decided to regret that choice bring him back as a Kabali.
I'm confused now-if people do not like TWOK or other Trek films, they are "reactionaries" or "whiny bitches" but if they don't like VOY then they are haters and irrational in their hatred. So, why is one ok but the other is not?
So, with all due respect, the people that I know are hardly the "reactionaries" that they are being painted to be. In point of fact, there is often sources being cited to support their opinion, and yet they will still state simply that it is their opinion and leave others to make up their own mind.
Same thing for me and VOY. I personally do not care for a lot of VOY, but neither do I care for a variety of shows that many enjoy. Likewise, my enjoyment of shows and films often look for a character that I can identify with and want to be or be like in that world. VOY never really captured that for me, unfortunately.
I'm confused now-if people do not like TWOK or other Trek films, they are "reactionaries" or "whiny bitches" but if they don't like VOY then they are haters and irrational in their hatred. So, why is one ok but the other is not?
Neither is okay, really.
TOS and those other movies attract a better class of hater?
Well, that's OK. To each his own.
I'm confused now-if people do not like TWOK or other Trek films, they are "reactionaries" or "whiny bitches" but if they don't like VOY then they are haters and irrational in their hatred. So, why is one ok but the other is not?
Neither is okay, really.
TOS and those other movies attract a better class of hater?
Well, that's OK. To each his own.
Each Trek series and films has detractors, people who do not like what was done, for a variety of reasons. Some people think TOS is the one true Trek and everything else fails to one degree or another to be Trek. Abrams receives hate mail and disparaging remarks as part of his getting in to the Trek franchise. This is not unique to VOY, at all.
SF Debris and others that I know have my respect because they present it as their opinion, backed up with BTS information that sheds light on what was going on as part of production. They also make me laugh, which is always a plus.
I may disagree with others about different aspects of Trek, but I don't think it is appropriate to call people names. As I have said before, it doesn't build up an argument if it has to tear other people down in the process.
I can understand why people hate Voyager but I don't share the hate.
I didn't like TNG and DS9 when they started (the typical bad first two seasons) but I liked Yoyager, so it had a good start with me.
I also liked Janeway, which seems to be very important, when it comes to the question if you like a series or not. F.e. I hated Cpt. Archer, which made that show ENT even worse and worse and worstestest for me.
Today "they" say: "There is no developement in the show, they have no problems with energy and have a trillion shuttles etc. " I don't disagree. I was rather happy about it. I was not interested in a show where they suffer all the time back then and I am not now (don't like "bad mood tv" a la "Stargate Universe" too).
Yet still in the later seasons I thought they should have handled the contact with the Federation and homecoming differently, give it more attention, maybe send a ship towards the Voyager. I LOVED Richard Herd as Admiral Paris of course (being an old V fan).
What I always hated were Neelix and Kes (Kes became better with time) and the Kazon, which I found really ugly and their codex rather stupid. And I wasn't too fond of the Be'lanna-episodes about her father.
As for the Borg, well, the decorations and props from Star Trek VIII were expensive, were they not?
No, the Borg show the increasing lack of creativity that Star Trek suffered at that time already. It was too much about "the Borg" in the end and they indeed have lost their fascination... (which is not Voyager's fault, it started in TNG with "Hugh" and the "Lore-Borg". To me they were the most interesting in Bobw - after that it went straight downwards).
In summary: The flaws of Voyager, that makes "star trek fans" supposedly hate it, were already there before and after Voyager. I think it's all no surprise when a team of people produce a show-concept for 15 years.
Those who favor TNG as "everything was better then" were very often Kids at the time and glorify it a bit.
I didn't like TNG and DS9 when they started (the typical bad first two seasons) but I liked Yoyager, so it had a good start with me.
I also liked Janeway, which seems to be very important, when it comes to the question if you like a series or not. F.e. I hated Cpt. Archer, which made that show ENT even worse and worse and worstestest for me.
Today "they" say: "There is no developement in the show, they have no problems with energy and have a trillion shuttles etc. " I don't disagree. I was rather happy about it. I was not interested in a show where they suffer all the time back then and I am not now (don't like "bad mood tv" a la "Stargate Universe" too).
Yet still in the later seasons I thought they should have handled the contact with the Federation and homecoming differently, give it more attention, maybe send a ship towards the Voyager. I LOVED Richard Herd as Admiral Paris of course (being an old V fan).
What I always hated were Neelix and Kes (Kes became better with time) and the Kazon, which I found really ugly and their codex rather stupid. And I wasn't too fond of the Be'lanna-episodes about her father.
As for the Borg, well, the decorations and props from Star Trek VIII were expensive, were they not?
No, the Borg show the increasing lack of creativity that Star Trek suffered at that time already. It was too much about "the Borg" in the end and they indeed have lost their fascination... (which is not Voyager's fault, it started in TNG with "Hugh" and the "Lore-Borg". To me they were the most interesting in Bobw - after that it went straight downwards). In summary: The flaws of Voyager, that makes "star trek fans" supposedly hate it, were already there before and after Voyager. I think it's all no surprise when a team of people produce a show-concept for 15 years.
Those who favor TNG as "everything was better then" were very often Kids at the time and glorify it a bit.
Summary? What preexisting flaws do you speak of that make "star trek fans" supposedly hate it?
Or rather than some weird age-based theory, maybe they just have different taste? It's just crazy enough to be true!
I keep seeing VOY fans defending the show from "haters"...but I'm not seeing many (or any) of these dreaded haters in the thread. I see people who were mostly just disappointed, or people who favored a different series, or people picking on individual elements that they found lacking or worthy of ridicule...but very little actual VOY hating.
I was merely referring to the thread title.
Of course.
But I don't think it's a weird thought and I didn't want to offend TNG fans. I just see that with myself and TOS and some other films I used to watch as a kid. I guess I would be much less fond of TOS if I saw it at 25 for the first time, not at age 4. Same goes for music and other stuff. This is just human.
Yes, "hate" is a rather strong word. When it comes to tv shows I guess "hate" means "dislike".
On the other hand, the show is rather old and those, who strongly dislike VOY, don't come in this subforum and don't see the thread.
Bingo.
If expectations had changed, if audiences expected, say, more serialized storytelling, it was because TV had changed and evolved over the years, but VOYAGER was still paced and formatted like TNG.
But VOYAGER wasn't competing against TNG. It was competing against THE X-FILES and BUFFY and FARSCAPE and BABYLON-5 and, yes, even DS9 . . ..
Which meant it felt a little stodgy and old-fashioned at times and somewhat less than cutting-edge. And it's not unfair to point that out.
To use a weird analogy, HOW TO GET AWAY WITH MURDER would not be a hit if it was just recycling old courtroom drama tropes from PERRY MASON, and structured and paced like a traditional courtroom drama, . . . no matter how fondly people may remember PERRY MASON or how well that format worked in the past.
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I can understand why people hate Voyager but I don't share the hate.
I didn't like TNG and DS9 when they started (the typical bad first two seasons) but I liked Yoyager, so it had a good start with me.
I also liked Janeway, which seems to be very important, when it comes to the question if you like a series or not. F.e. I hated Cpt. Archer, which made that show ENT even worse and worse and worstestest for me.
Today "they" say: "There is no developement in the show, they have no problems with energy and have a trillion shuttles etc. " I don't disagree. I was rather happy about it. I was not interested in a show where they suffer all the time back then and I am not now (don't like "bad mood tv" a la "Stargate Universe" too).
But when those limitations are built into the shows premise and you ignore them, that's an issue. Take the holodeck having an incompatible power supply with the rest of the ship, that made little sense or should I say no sense unless it was to get around the problem highlighted in TNG's "Booby Trap", aside from why would you design a system which has an incompable power supply with the rest of the ship anyway.
Yet still in the later seasons I thought they should have handled the contact with the Federation and homecoming differently, give it more attention, maybe send a ship towards the Voyager. I LOVED Richard Herd as Admiral Paris of course (being an old V fan).
What I always hated were Neelix and Kes (Kes became better with time) and the Kazon, which I found really ugly and their codex rather stupid. And I wasn't too fond of the Be'lanna-episodes about her father.
As for the Borg, well, the decorations and props from Star Trek VIII were expensive, were they not?
In summary: The flaws of Voyager, that makes "star trek fans" supposedly hate it, were already there before and after Voyager. I think it's all no surprise when a team of people produce a show-concept for 15 years.
Those who favor TNG as "everything was better then" were very often Kids at the time and glorify it a bit.
I might be mistaken but I'm fairly sure there was a line about Starfleet having redirected ships towards Voyager. And could you not use the samre argument that those who favour VOY were kids at the time and glorify it a bit? Which is a bit of an oversplification we all like different things and for some VOY appealed more to them than other ST shows which is fine.
But if those flaws existed in ST prior to VOY why do shows such as TOS, TNG and even DSN don't seem ti attract the same level of critisims as VOY and ENT? Or is just a case of buy the time those shows came around they were recycling the same old stories? Which is a weak argument because other shows were basically telling the same old stories. After all isn't there only something like 7 or so basic plots to tell and from then it's variations on those basic plots
I can only agree. I always had the feeling VOY and ENT were meant to be TNG in new clothes with new make up.
I prefer to put it the other way around: the series is right, just the premise doesn't really fit.
Yes, I'm pretty sure. I didn't do a study about it, you don't have to follow me on this.
I always had the impression that the bad reputation Voy got at the time it was first aired came from mostly from the teenage generation, who themselves were children in the 80s. Those, who were children when Voy was aired don't have a show to compare any more. They can only compare to JJ Trek.
And btw: I also think TNG is the better show.
The effects of diminishing creativity get worse over time. Handel wrote over 30 operas - they are all basically the same. No differences in quality. He even reused the same music. But oddly the people didn't complain about his first operas, only about the later ones.
Sorry... back to topic. The fifth incarnation of an officer accused of murder is is far less original and interesting than the first or the second.
And I meant people like Berman who did it for around 20 years continusly - the typical Berman-Trek. DS9 had different producers and TOS too (of course). And as you write - VOY and ENT ignored their main story-setting, which TNG didn't do.
I don't mean that Star Trek was at the end of creativity, I think the fourth season of ENT had some fresh taste - with the same stale Bermantrek as Finale though. The dilemma was: they had the same people for too long.
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