"Long range and untraceable"

[Franklin]

The plot kind of did, at least in terms of the dramatic moment it would've created if instead of breaking warp and confronting the Enterprise, the Vengeance suddenly de-cloaked in front of them.

The way it happened in the film seemed dramatic enough.

Yeah, it was. And the plot did require sensors detecting the approach of the ship so Khan could point out the direction it was coming from.

I just meant that if the writers had wanted to go the cloaked way, that would've been a very dramatic appearance, too. It wasn't like they couldn't have worked cloaking into the story in a serviceable way.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the prime timeline treaties, we knew from TOS "Balance of Terror" that there was this century-old, nameless treaty defining the Neutral Zone, but this obviously did not mention cloaks because they were still unheard of in the episode. We then learned in TNG "the Pegasus" that there was a Treaty of Algeron with the Romulans that banned cloaking and had kept the peace since 2311 or thereabouts, but we did not know whether this was in any way related to the original RNZ treaty, nor did we get a signing date (merely the "has kept peace this long" reference).

It was not until ENT "These Are the Voyages" that we learn that the Treaty of Algeron

1) really was signed in 2311 and not earlier
2) redefined the RNZ
3) banned Starfleet from using cloaking tech on its vessels

We still don't know if there exists another treaty, signed between "Balance of Terror" and 2311, that would include an even earlier ban on cloaking. But there certainly isn't any pre-2260s treaty to that effect in the prime timeline, unless it's a super-secret treaty that Starfleet starship captains are never told of, not even when they are assigned to the Romulan border.

Then again, in the prime timeline, our heroes as of 2258 do not yet know that Romulans are Vulcans who speak and dress a bit funnily. In the nuverse, they do - and it appears that this knowledge dates back some time, although Captain Robau's crew in 2233 does not yet seem to realize the significance of seeing tattooed, bald, Vulcanesque villains. Something in that universe did go differently at a relatively early date, and we have yet to learn that invisibility would be novel to our heroes as of the 2250s let alone the 2260s.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Then again, in the prime timeline, our heroes as of 2258 do not yet know that Romulans are Vulcans who speak and dress a bit funnily. In the nuverse, they do - and it appears that this knowledge dates back some time, although Captain Robau's crew in 2233 does not yet seem to realize the significance of seeing tattooed, bald, Vulcanesque villains.

Yes, knowledge of Romulans goes back to the earlier war. The Kelvin's crew may not have realized they were encountering a Romulan vessel at the time, but I'm sure a subsequent tactical analysis was able to put two and two together. In the subsequent 25 years, someone must have had the "Holy crap!" moment realizing Romulans and Vulcans were related.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure how this would come to be. What would be the cues?

Nero's ship wouldn't resemble anything ever seen in Romulan hands, probably. Granted, it may be centuries old, but if the old war touched upon Romulan civilian mining rigs, one would expect it to have involved the broader Romulan culture deeply enough to discredit the original "faceless war" idea completely.

Nero didn't speak Romulan within earshot of Robau's surviving crew, either. Even if samples of the Romulan language were obtained during the old war or before it (like in ENT "Minefield"), how could these be connected to Nero?

It's possible Nero emerged from the timestorm somewhere near the Romulan Neutral Zone - after all, that's where a similar storm was observed 25 years later, supposedly in connection with Spock emerging. Perhaps this even happened inside Romulan space (the hole might be through time but not through space, as with most Trek time travel, and we know the other end was at Romulus). But if Nero's original emergence was right next to the RNZ, or even inside Romulan space, why was this never mentioned as a factor? Why was the walla between the Kelvin and Starfleet about Klingons, not Romulans?

Yet somehow, Pike in his dissertation claimed that the mystery monster ship was Romulan. Based on what? It would be a reasonable guess once the Federation learned that Romulans were Vulcans - Nero would look the part! But this would require the Federation learning this by some other means first.

We might simply say that it was Pike, not Kirk, who first encountered Romulan invisibility devices and glimpsed Romulan faces and survived to tell the story, in an incident much like "Balance of Terror". Or somebody before Pike, depending on when exactly in his career Pike did this academic work. Or perhaps seeing the faces and learning about invisibility were completely separate events and did not resemble "Balance of Terror" in the slightest. Possibly only Section 31 knows about Romulan invisibility technology, then.

Or then nobody in ST:ID really knows Romulans can cloak; S31 has developed the tech independently; and the supposed treaties or regulations against invisibility are unrelated to Romulans?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[drt]

I agree that this is contradictory. If you want to start a war, you don't attack from afar with cloaked, untraceable missiles. Unless Marcus' plan was to use all 72 torps to wipe out the surface of Kronos in one volley (i.e. knock em down before they even knew what hit them), it's just another example of bad writing.

No, I see the sense of it. Suppose we have this scenario:

1. Enterprise, at but not actually past the border, fires the 72 missiles.

2. The missiles cloak, and reach Kronos, doing widespread damage.

Plausible responses, as I see it:

1. The Klingons, not being idiots, would conclude the Enterprise attacked them and retaliate.

2. Admiral Marcus would insist that the Enterprise never entered Klingon space and that there's no evidence of anything launched from Enterprise toward Kronos except maybe nasty looks.

3. Federation public opinion would interpret the explosions on Kronos as being a Praxis-like natural disaster used by the Klingons as pretext to attack and destroy an innocent ship of the line.

Thus the Klingons are roused (fairly, I must say) to war, with an incident that will look to non-warhawks within the Federation as an unprovoked attack. It doesn't guarantee war --- nothing does, if the heads of state are determined not to have one --- but it would be an awfully hard incident to get past.

Oooo... I like your explanation better than mine.



With regard to identifying Narada as Romulan, maybe when they contacted Kelvin they were speaking Romulan, which was Universal Translated, and that was how the identification was made.

 

[Timo]

...Does it take special effort to find out what language is being spoken into the UT, or is this automatically displayed on the screen of the communications officer? If the former, why wasn't there dialogue right there during the incident to the effect of "They are hailing us in Romulan, Sir! But they look like Vulcans... What devilry is this?"...?

Although the Kelvin crew and the UT shouldn't know anything about the Romulan language, because the movie later tells it's identical to Vulcan safe for nuances, and if that much were known in 2233 already, then there would be no surprise left for "Balance of Terror": it would already be obvious that Romulans are Vulcans.

In any case, it would make sense for Nero to speak in Romulan. I mean, what other language should he use? He's expecting the other party (and its UT) to be well versed in Romulan: everybody in the late 24th century would be. Robau's crew would simply mistake this for Vulcan, and it would take decades until somebody realized it's actually Romulan. And this would require some sort of outside input; the revelation cannot stem from the Nero encounter itself.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

...Does it take special effort to find out what language is being spoken into the UT, or is this automatically displayed on the screen of the communications officer? If the former, why wasn't there dialogue right there during the incident to the effect of "They are hailing us in Romulan, Sir! But they look like Vulcans... What devilry is this?"...?

Although the Kelvin crew and the UT shouldn't know anything about the Romulan language, because the movie later tells it's identical to Vulcan safe for nuances, and if that much were known in 2233 already, then there would be no surprise left for "Balance of Terror": it would already be obvious that Romulans are Vulcans.

In any case, it would make sense for Nero to speak in Romulan. I mean, what other language should he use? He's expecting the other party (and its UT) to be well versed in Romulan: everybody in the late 24th century would be. Robau's crew would simply mistake this for Vulcan, and it would take decades until somebody realized it's actually Romulan. And this would require some sort of outside input; the revelation cannot stem from the Nero encounter itself.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, the UT in that time might not display the language, but it is recognizable that it is being translated, at least according to TUC and the need to speak in Kligon rather than rely on the UT.

Pike's dissertation on the Kelvin's encounter with the Narada describes the Romulans as being in one massive ship, obviously indicating a greater technology disparity than previously known. Also, cloaking tech was supposed to be introduced in 09 as the Klingons approached the Narada after the Kelvin impacted. Obviously, not in the film so it not official, but it indicates that cloaking tech as at least known.

In addition, I have always imagined that Starfleet took intelligence about the Romulans far more seriously after the attack on the Kelvin, and monitored the Neutral Zone very closely, looking for clues for the next attack. When the Klingons starting becoming more aggressive, and the Romulans didn't show activity again, the focus would be on them.

Something about the Narada tip off the fact that they were Romulans. Scans, sensor readings or other information gathered while Robau's shuttle was in there.

 

[Set Harth]

It's possible Nero emerged from the timestorm somewhere near the Romulan Neutral Zone - after all, that's where a similar storm was observed 25 years later, supposedly in connection with Spock emerging.

The script makes it clear they are supposed to be near the Klingon Neutral Zone: How far are we from the Klingon Neutral Zone?

Perhaps this even happened inside Romulan space

With the Kelvin conveniently patrolling inside Romulan space?

(the hole might be through time but not through space, as with most Trek time travel,

This isn't your father's Trek time travel ( as we already knew from the whole single timeline vs. branching timeline issue ).

and we know the other end was at Romulus). But if Nero's original emergence was right next to the RNZ, or even inside Romulan space, why was this never mentioned as a factor? Why was the walla between the Kelvin and Starfleet about Klingons, not Romulans?

Because they were near the Klingon-Fed border and not anywhere near Romulan space.

 

[fireproof78]

It's possible Nero emerged from the timestorm somewhere near the Romulan Neutral Zone - after all, that's where a similar storm was observed 25 years later, supposedly in connection with Spock emerging.

The script makes it clear they are supposed to be near the Klingon Neutral Zone: How far are we from the Klingon Neutral Zone?

Perhaps this even happened inside Romulan space

With the Kelvin conveniently patrolling inside Romulan space?

(the hole might be through time but not through space, as with most Trek time travel,

This isn't your father's Trek time travel ( as we already knew from the whole single timeline vs. branching timeline issue ).

and we know the other end was at Romulus). But if Nero's original emergence was right next to the RNZ, or even inside Romulan space, why was this never mentioned as a factor? Why was the walla between the Kelvin and Starfleet about Klingons, not Romulans?

Because they were near the Klingon-Fed border and not anywhere near Romulan space.

Technically, the branching timeline has been presented in Trek before, in a variety of series. Just not fully explored like Abrams verse is being.

 

[Timo]

Technically, there's no difference: back in BTTF, Doc Brown describes branches in an adventure that basically involves changes to a single timeline, but both interpretations are equally valid at describing the events, depending solely on who is doing the observing...

The script makes it clear they are supposed to be near the Klingon Neutral Zone: How far are we from the Klingon Neutral Zone?

...In the movie, the Zone doesn't get a mention, just the Klingons. And since a point blank range of 75,000 km is the answer to the question of "how far", then either this is a Klingon-owned star system (but the range makes little sense even then), or then a mobile Klingon asset is somewhere nearby. Who knows, perhaps the Kelvin was playing cat and mouse with a Klingon ship when the space storm diverted her attention?

With the Kelvin conveniently patrolling inside Romulan space?

Whatever the Kelvin was doing, "patrolling" is a bit unlikely to be it. Supposedly, had Nero not diverted the ship / scared Winona Kirk to a premature delivery, little Jimmy would have been born in Iowa, suggesting the ship was originally en route to Earth.

Yeah, the ships involved may be a tad faster than Kirk's rickety TOS ride, but hopefully not so much that they would mark a sharp departure from the "rules" of Star Trek. Then again, if this timehole indeed is at the same place as the one facilitating Spock's emergence, it would be within easy travel of Vulcan, and Vulcan is within easy travel of Earth (that is, hours rather than weeks in both cases). Which would mean the RNZ is within easy travel of Vulcan and Earth, an assumption fully in line with what we saw in the older Trek incarnations.

Aaanyway. If the Kelvin was prompted to change course to monitor the space storm even though there was a Klingon asset nearby, it might have been a sufficiently important event to warrant violating the RNZ, too. Or then not.

As for cloaks, I have nothing against Klingons already operating those back in 2233. That's good continuity with Grandfather Trek. It's just that our heroes can't be shown seeing the invisibility (you get the meaning) and living to tell the story. And that wouldn't have been a problem even in the abandoned versions of the 2009 movie.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Set Harth]

Technically, there's no difference: back in BTTF, Doc Brown describes branches in an adventure that basically involves changes to a single timeline, but both interpretations are equally valid at describing the events, depending solely on who is doing the observing...

There's a vast difference. In single-timeline theory the previous timeline is overwritten, together with all of its "observers". In branching it is not; the timelines both exist in parallel.

BTTF has no relevance here and isn't somehow an authority on time travel. This is a different franchise.

But the main point was that we've never seen red-matter-induced time travel before so it is permitted to act in a manner different from other forms of time travel if the writers want it to.

...In the movie, the Zone doesn't get a mention, just the Klingons.

Close enough. You said it yourself: why are they worried about Klingons as opposed to Romulans? The script reveals the intent of the writers. We also see some evidence of this in other places: at Nero's emergence point there is a large star nearby, while at Spock's emergence point the script says that there is an empty starfield ( we can pretty much see this in the film, though it's not like we get a panoramic view ).

If the Kelvin was prompted to change course to monitor the space storm

I don't think that's consistent with what we see in the film. The space storm just seems to erupt in the general vicinity of the Kelvin without any significant changing of course. We can compare to Spock's emergence which happens in the same way.

 

[Timo]

There's a vast difference. In single-timeline theory the previous timeline is overwritten, together with all of its "observers". In branching it is not; the timelines both exist in parallel.

For an observer in any single branch, there never is any change, except in BTTF; things don't "seep in" gradually in Trek time travel. Yet the whole "overwritten" business in the Trek versions is unprovable doubletalk, as it can be viewed as simple branching, too. History used to look like X, now it looks like Y to somebody looking at it from Y. Same difference.

The script reveals the intent of the writers.

Which isn't necessarily a desirable interpretation of a movie, especially if a later story is written using different assumptions. But we'll have to wait and see on that.

We also see some evidence of this in other places: at Nero's emergence point there is a large star nearby, while at Spock's emergence point the script says that there is an empty starfield ( we can pretty much see this in the film, though it's not like we get a panoramic view ).

Hmm. Without access to the script, I guess the better indication here is the presence of a sky-spanning, branching, orange-glowing nebula thingamabob at Spock's point of emergence; it would be more difficult to hide this "behind the cameraman's back" at Nero's emergence than to hide the star at Spock's.

Of course, the glare of the star would drown out such nebulae in the Nero shots anyway.

I don't think that's consistent with what we see in the film. The space storm just seems to erupt in the general vicinity of the Kelvin without any significant changing of course. We can compare to Spock's emergence which happens in the same way.

But the dialogue suggests that we join the Kelvin action well after Robau has decided to investigate. And the two emergences are dissimilar anyway, in that Spock's clearly takes much less time (from early signs to spacecraft appearance) - but supposedly, even this latter space storm lasts long enough to be observed and categorized from afar.

I guess there have to be some sort of rules controlling the spatial coordinates of the emergence points, because clearly these aren't set several galaxies apart, or even thousands of lightyears apart - both are sufficiently close to Earth for drama to unfold. We know both ships left from the same spot, which supposedly is in the Romulan home system or within visual range of it; possibly the differences in emergence account for "drift" of 129 and 154 years, respectively. Although at what speed, we don't know (but Nero's team supposedly does, as they know to wait for Spock at the exact right spot).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Set Harth]

But the dialogue suggests that we join the Kelvin action well after Robau has decided to investigate.

Not particularly. What the dialogue does suggest is that the Kelvin discovered the anomaly and sent a message to Starfleet Command, not that the Kelvin was diverted to the location by Starfleet. In any event there's no indication that the Kelvin has been sent there from a different sector of space.

But we'll have to wait and see on that.

Is there a statistically significant likelihood that a later story will be driven by an arbitrary need to redefine the particulars of red-matter-black-hole-induced time travel?

History used to look like X, now it looks like Y to somebody looking at it from Y.

Unless they've been erased from existence, in which case it doesn't look like anything because they're not around to look at it.

Yet the whole "overwritten" business in the Trek versions is unprovable doubletalk, as it can be viewed as simple branching, too.

Except it isn't. Hence the problem with the "observers" fallacy. Things are not always as they appear from a blinkered perspective.

 

[fireproof78]

But the dialogue suggests that we join the Kelvin action well after Robau has decided to investigate.

Not particularly. What the dialogue does suggest is that the Kelvin discovered the anomaly and sent a message to Starfleet Command, not that the Kelvin was diverted to the location by Starfleet. In any event there's no indication that the Kelvin has been sent there from a different sector of space.

But we'll have to wait and see on that.

Is there a statistically significant likelihood that a later story will be driven by an arbitrary need to redefine the particulars of red-matter-black-hole-induced time travel?

History used to look like X, now it looks like Y to somebody looking at it from Y.

Unless they've been erased from existence, in which case it doesn't look like anything because they're not around to look at it.

Yet the whole "overwritten" business in the Trek versions is unprovable doubletalk, as it can be viewed as simple branching, too.

Except it isn't. Hence the problem with the "observers" fallacy. Things are not always as they appear from a blinkered perspective.

Not to interject here, but I'm confused by the notion that either the universe is over-written, or that some how Trek time travel is one timeline. Given that we have seen many different alternate and parallel realities in Trek, Abrams Trek does not feel that off to me.

Am I missing something?

 

[Timo]

Some sort of an external source is apparently claiming that the old "Kirk Trek" no longer exists and is being overwritten by the new "Kirk Trek". This is not claimed in the movies themselves, and since all Trek time travel stories so far have only followed a single timeline at a time, there's no telling how many "Kirk Treks" there are actually ongoing in the late 2250s, early 2260s...

"Blinkers on" is the only way we can watch Trek. Unless an authoritative time traveler tells there exists nothing outside the blinkered view, we can always assume something does (and indeed many episodes establish that an infinite number of parallel realities exist for every instance of time).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

Some sort of an external source is apparently claiming that the old "Kirk Trek" no longer exists and is being overwritten by the new "Kirk Trek". This is not claimed in the movies themselves, and since all Trek time travel stories so far have only followed a single timeline at a time, there's no telling how many "Kirk Treks" there are actually ongoing in the late 2250s, early 2260s...

"Blinkers on" is the only way we can watch Trek. Unless an authoritative time traveler tells there exists nothing outside the blinkered view, we can always assume something does (and indeed many episodes establish that an infinite number of parallel realities exist for every instance of time).

Timo Saloniemi

That's my point. It isn't like Trek ever treated parallel or alternate timelines did not exist, because there were a couple of examples were an alternate reality was introduced, and not expected to cease existence because the crew left.

Time travel is always a wonky thing, but Trek treats it with a fairly simple point of view that if you travel to the past, you impact your future. If you travel to a parallel universe, you are removed from your timeline and exist in the alternate. One does not supersede the other, other than we, as the audience, are watching one time line.

As for Nero's arrival, the possibility is always that the anomaly drifted as part of gravity and stellar drift, which, in Trek, we have seen gravity (among other anomalies) impact how time travel happens, so the lightning storm doesn't bother me.

It doesn't seem far fetched to me that the Kelvin was traveling, possibly to Earth given Mrs. Kirk's pregnancy, and the lightning storm occurred, getting their attention.

Captain: What's that?

Crewman: Never seen anything like it.

Captain: Well take a pic and text it to Starfleet. See what they think it is. I sure don't know.

Crewman: Think it will delay our trip?

Captain: Probably not



A bit facetious, but given the severity of the disturbance, both in time and space, it probably wouldn't take much for the Kelvin go off looking at it. Also, we may well guess that the terminus of the anomaly is in the Klingon neutral zone based upon lines in the movie, the destruction of Klingon ships and events in the Neutral Zone. I could be mistaken, but this is what I took at face value.

Again, if I am missing something, I apologize, but that's my view. YMMV

 

[Timo]

In terms of dialogue, there's a bit of intriguing ambiguity. Nobody ever says "Klingon Neutral Zone" or "Romulan Neutral Zone" out loud, but the Kobayashi Maru is in a neutral zone with Klingons, while Starfleet for some reason thinks that an anomaly at "the neutral zone" must be associated with trouble on Vulcan.

The use of "the neutral zone" in Chekov's PA suggests the existence of just one such thing, but we have heard of such usage in ST6, too, despite there apparently being at least two distinct zones in existence at the time.

That ambiguity allows for the interpretation that Vulcan lies next to the RNZ that separates the world from its alienated counterpart, an interpretation I prefer simply because it fits a few odds and ends from elsewhere in Trek while the KNZ would not do so. But the KNZ being the location of the anomaly that Starfleet associates with Vulcan is also all right, because Spock's emergence and the supposed fight between Nero and the Klingon armada take place within just an hour of each other.

Timo Saloniemi