Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[Anwar]

Seriously, if UPN just cared about it being TNG 2.0 they could've ordered the producers to bring the ship home to fight some of the Dominion War or have weekly spats with the Klingons and Romulans.

They couldn't do that with DS9 on at the same time. The only time they could do that was by the 7th season. And by then it was too late.

So nothing you've posted proves that a "Lost Ship" series can't make it, because Star Trek: Voyager did make it. There's 178 episodes of making it out there.

7 Seasons straight of holding true to the "Lost Ship" thing and NOT changing it to TNG 2.0 with planet-of-the-week storytelling. Which VOY didn't do.

 

[MacLeod]

I still don't buy this. You said yourself you liked the show, I (and many others) have said they enjoyed the show. If the point is to entertain viewers, then obviously the plot was sustainable.

The plot (TNG 2.0) they ultimately went with got them viewership, the original "Lost Ship" plotline (which they get critiqued for abandoning) wasn't sustainable.

Let's look at ever "Lost Ship" show from the last 40 years worth remembering:

Blakes Seven: Had more to it than the "Lost Ship" thing from day one, never had to deal with Repair issues or resupply, had a small cast.

Each season only had 13 episodes or so, which made the serialization easier. Show intended to end after 3 seasons, got one extra and still ended after 4.

LEXX: Only had 4 or so characters. Ship didn't need resupply or external aid, show ended after 4 seasons. Only had about 60 episodes. They dropped the "Lost Ship" thing after the 2nd season and spent the 3rd season in Heaven and Hell with the 4th season on Earth.

Farscape: Only had 5 or so characters at a time. Ship rarely if ever needed external aid or resupply. The dropped the "Lost Ship" thing at the end of Season 1 and had the rest of it be about the Peacekeeper/Scarran war and the search for Wormhole weapons. Barely made it to 4 seasons.

NuBSG: Had an entire armada, not one ship. Lots of spare cannon fodder to kill off without harming Galactica. Whenever things got bad they pulled a solution out of Deus Ex Machina (spare Battlestar, Renegade Cylons, "God"). Show fell apart after 2 seasons, rot set in by 3rd, show ended on literal Deus Ex Machina in 4th.

None made it past 4 seasons, and each one dropped the "Lost Ship" thing or had more to it from the start.

I might be mistaken but Blake's 7 had a largeish cast (Blake, Avon, Vila, Cally, Jenna, Gan, Zen) Not to mention signifigant recurring characters, Servelan & Travis. Only a few short of what VOY had.

Besides B7 wasn't really a lost ship premise, it was more of a group of rebels trying to overthrow the totalitarian Federation, though might not have been the goal of all of them at times.



As for Lexx it's been a while but didn't thee ship eat, so in a sense it did have to resupply.

Farscape: I seem to recall commerce planets being frequently throught the show. i.e. planets in which to resupply. As for the wormholes was John looking for them so he could return home, true the PK and Scarrans wanted them for weapon reasons. It was commisioned for a fifth season at the same time as a fourth but the network pulled the plug at the eleventh hour. So no it didn't barely make it to 4 seasons, part of the reason they had to do the PK Wars mini series was because they producers had been told they had two seasons they planned for two seasons.


As for nBSG and the Deus ex machina ending, there were hints that perhaps some other force was at work since fairly early in the show. Even the orginal BSG had the Ship of Lights and one of those who was banished was perhaps the representation of evil.

 

[Anwar]

I might be mistaken but Blake's 7 had a largeish cast (Blake, Avon, Vila, Cally, Jenna, Gan, Zen) Not to mention signifigant recurring characters, Servelan & Travis. Only a few short of what VOY had.

And they didn't a whole lot with all of them, with Avon and Blake being the Centrals. And they only had Servelan as the main antagonist. Her second got killed along with one of the 7.

Besides B7 wasn't really a lost ship premise, it was more of a group of rebels trying to overthrow the totalitarian Federation, though might not have been the goal of all of them at times.

Still, it was one ship on its own that just happened to never need repairs or resupply. It just happened to have all the food, gold and supplies they'd ever need.

As for Lexx it's been a while but didn't thee ship eat, so in a sense it did have to resupply.

It ate dirt and rocks, for crying out loud!

Farscape: I seem to recall commerce planets being frequently throught the show. i.e. planets in which to resupply.

Sure they mentioned them and sometimes went to them but we never saw them go through the process of getting food/supplies or starving or where they got money (except when they robbed that bank).

As for the wormholes was John looking for them so he could return home, true the PK and Scarrans wanted them for weapon reasons.

Yes, and this took over as the main plot after Season One once Crichton and Scorpius learned about the hidden knowledge in his brain.

And like you said, the Producers pulled the plug.

As for nBSG and the Deus ex machina ending, there were hints that perhaps some other force was at work since fairly early in the show. Even the orginal BSG had the Ship of Lights and one of those who was banished was perhaps the representation of evil.

Which doesn't make it less of a Deus Ex Machina. Especially since all those earlier mentions easily had non-deus ex machina explanations.

If VOY had Q pop up several times to make mention of some "Plan" and then the ending had him teleport them home after revealing everything was a game he was playing on them, you think that wouldn't be derided as a cop-out?

 

[BillJ]

7 Seasons straight of holding true to the "Lost Ship" thing and NOT changing it to TNG 2.0 with planet-of-the-week storytelling. Which VOY didn't do.

What exactly did you expect the series to actually be about? Honestly? The very premise (which wasn't really a "Lost Ship" but a ship stranded very far from home) necessitates that there would be many people and races you would only see for a very short time. The goal is stated in the very first episode, they want to go home and have a long trip ahead of them.

I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing about?

 

[MacLeod]

Yes but in the case of Farscape for examples in "Crackers Don't Matter" we see the food that they bought, and in "Home on the Remains" I believe the crew are suffering from starvation.

A cop-out ending is not the same as a Deus Ex Machina ending, a Deus Ex Machina has to really come out of nowhere with no fore-shadowing. You can say the ending in DSN's "Sacrifice of Angels" was a cop-out but it wasn't a Dues ex machnia as it used established beings who can control the wormhole (as seen in the pilot), had communicated with Sisko previously, etc...)

The fact that something mentioned earlier could also have a non-dues ex machina explantion doesn't mean that is the only explantion or the correct explantion.

 

[Anwar]

What exactly did you expect the series to actually be about?

I dunno, to be totally honest. Just for detractors to stop whining about them abandoning the premise.

Honestly? The very premise (which wasn't really a "Lost Ship" but a ship stranded very far from home) necessitates that there would be many people and races you would only see for a very short time. The goal is stated in the very first episode, they want to go home and have a long trip ahead of them.

The Warp Drive gets crippled and they go for the opposite of DS9: They decide to try and build a Delta Federation and we get to see how such a thing happens and how it's a good thing that helps people. Then they find a random wormhole or put together an advanced Stardrive/whatever to get home after a while, spend a little time home and then go back out to where their Delta Federation was but now they can come and go as they see fit.

Yes but in the case of Farscape for examples in "Crackers Don't Matter" we see the food that they bought, and in "Home on the Remains" I believe the crew are suffering from starvation.

Two episodes out of the entire series?!

The fact that something mentioned earlier could also have a non-dues ex machina explantion doesn't mean that is the only explantion or the correct explantion

It does make the ultimate usage of it as a Nebulous Deus Ex Machina much more annoying.

 

[BillJ]

The Warp Drive gets crippled and they go for the opposite of DS9: They decide to try and build a Delta Federation and we get to see how such a thing happens and how it's a good thing that helps people. Then they find a random wormhole or put together an advanced Stardrive/whatever to get home after a while, spend a little time home and then go back out to where their Delta Federation was but now they can come and go as they see fit.

Which would be a violation of the Prime Directive as most of the races they encountered weren't as technologically advanced. If they were as advanced, they would be able to help with the warp drive issue and send Voyager on its way.

But beyond that, I find that premise incredibly dull.

 

[Hypaspist]

None made it past 4 seasons, and each one dropped the "Lost Ship" thing or had more to it from the start.

I would hold up, again, The Lost Fleet books as an example of this being done right. It is a whole series based on the concept.
BSG's problem was simply that the writers didn't know how they were going to end it. I don't think their losses all boiled down to extra ships and civilians being killed. They lost all of their experienced pilots in an accident and there were repercussions to it. They utilized some of their ships to start manufacturing fighters because they had to. I mean the examples are there.
Not knowing how to work this all into a greater plot scheme is not to say it's unworkable.

 

[MacLeod]

^I was merely rebutting your point that in Farscape we never saw them buying Food or Starving. There might be more examples but those are the only two I could think of, off the top of my head.

And from memory we did see VOY visit a trade station did we not?

 

[BillJ]

^I was merely rebutting your point that in Farscape we never saw them buying Food or Starving. There might be more examples but those are the only two I could think of, off the top of my head.

And from memory we did see VOY visit a trade station did we not?

We never saw anyone poop on Voyager. So obviously no one ever did!

 

[Anwar]

Which would be a violation of the Prime Directive as most of the races they encountered weren't as technologically advanced. If they were as advanced, they would be able to help with the warp drive issue and send Voyager on its way.

Fine, they lose all their dilithium along with the Warp Drive and when they fix it there's not enough dilithium in the area to get it to work again., The aliens around use a non-Warp Drive FTL that's incompatible with VOY's tech. Or some God Alien puts up a barrier they can't escape from, or whatever.

They either find a stable wormhole home or make a Wormhole or Q does something and they're home but can go back whenever they want.

I would hold up, again, The Lost Fleet books as an example of this being done right. It is a whole series based on the concept.

Books are different from TV shows in medium.

Also, it's only about one character. And there's still more to the plot than just one lost ship. It was about entire civilizations, aliens in the background manipulating things, etc.

And the series only lasted 4 years.

BSG's problem was simply that the writers didn't know how they were going to end it.

That and they'd used up all the good you could get out of the "Lost Ship" thing in 2 seasons.

I don't think their losses all boiled down to extra ships and civilians being killed. They lost all of their experienced pilots in an accident and there were repercussions to it.

Easily resolved once they ran into the Pegasus.

They utilized some of their ships to start manufacturing fighters because they had to. I mean the examples are there.
Not knowing how to work this all into a greater plot scheme is not to say it's unworkable.

NuBSG used the reset button like VOY did, only difference was that they added a lot of padding before the button got hit.

And from memory we did see VOY visit a trade station did we not

Yes, and the audience still didn't care that they did this and complained they weren't seeing them trade/negotiate for supplies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know why TNG's ratings were fantastic. The Network was whoring... No, you pay for whores, Paramount was slutting itself around America for free, because they decided that impossibly large ratings were more important than than the dinky licensing fees you'd net from tiny mom and pop operators.

Paramount increased and accelerated the show's profitability by choosing to instead broadcast it in first-run syndication[11][5][12]:123–124 on independent stations (whose numbers had more than tripled since 1980) and Big Three network affiliates.[3] In an example of "barter syndication", Paramount offered the show to local stations for free. The stations sold five minutes of commercial time to local advertisers and Paramount sold the remaining seven minutes to national advertisers. However, stations also had to commit to purchasing reruns in the future.[11] As additional incentive, only stations that aired the new show could purchase the popular reruns of the original series.[13]:222[14]

 

[Anwar]

That, and lack of competition.

 

[fireproof78]

^I was merely rebutting your point that in Farscape we never saw them buying Food or Starving. There might be more examples but those are the only two I could think of, off the top of my head.

And from memory we did see VOY visit a trade station did we not?

I was going to say, the Farscape series ran with the idea of constant danger around every corner. Even when things were good, they still could go to crap almost immediately. Farscape also rarely visited the same planet twice.

Much more of a wild west type of a show, while VOY was more formulaic, hence it's struggle with other scifi shows out on the market.

^I was merely rebutting your point that in Farscape we never saw them buying Food or Starving. There might be more examples but those are the only two I could think of, off the top of my head.

And from memory we did see VOY visit a trade station did we not?

We never saw anyone poop on Voyager. So obviously no one ever did!

Yes, sir. At least on ENT they acknowledged that fact

 

[Guy Gardener]

Poo only exists in the Doctor's dreams.

(From Projections.)

EMH: Can you give me a ship's status report?
COMPUTER: Affirmative. Warp core is offline. The ship is restricted to emergency power and auxiliary systems only. Structural integrity breach on deck six, deck seven and deck twelve. Deflector shields inoperative. Weapons array offline. Communications offline. Sewage and waste reclamation offline.
EMH: Okay, I get the idea. What caused this damage?

 

[Anwar]

I was going to say, the Farscape series ran with the idea of constant danger around every corner. Even when things were good, they still could go to crap almost immediately. Farscape also rarely visited the same planet twice.

Much more of a wild west type of a show, while VOY was more formulaic, hence it's struggle with other scifi shows out on the market.

Farscape may have rarely (if ever) visited the same world twice, but it never left the general area and kept running into the same aliens over and over (Peacekeepers and Scarrans). As well as the same specific characters (Crais, Scorpius, Grayza).

And like I said, they had cheats that VOY didn't (ship never needed shipyard support, had a magic teleport escape, etc).

 

[Melakon]

We never saw anyone poop on Voyager. So obviously no one ever did!

Or on TNG either. I don't remember ever hearing Picard say "You have the bridge, Number One. I've got to do number two."

Though there is that time Q sees Riker and says "Well, if it isn't Number Two!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Zephram Cochrane took a leak in one of the movies.

Geordie "Leak? What I'm not registering any ... Oh I get it! That's funny!"

 

[dub]

Numba One, might you help me with this onsie?

 

[fireproof78]

I was going to say, the Farscape series ran with the idea of constant danger around every corner. Even when things were good, they still could go to crap almost immediately. Farscape also rarely visited the same planet twice.

Much more of a wild west type of a show, while VOY was more formulaic, hence it's struggle with other scifi shows out on the market.

Farscape may have rarely (if ever) visited the same world twice, but it never left the general area and kept running into the same aliens over and over (Peacekeepers and Scarrans). As well as the same specific characters (Crais, Scorpius, Grayza).

And like I said, they had cheats that VOY didn't (ship never needed shipyard support, had a magic teleport escape, etc).

Farscape is an unfair comparison, as it is a different premise for a show, lost person rather than lost ship. And that premise carried forward in to a war premise, and a whole variety of different story arcs and character arcs.

Also, VOY kept running in to the Borg over and over again, and the Vidiians, the Hirogen and Talaxians.

And, VOY had support from time to time, and the ship never showed damage, a point I'm sure has been made before. Still not sure how VOY was at a disadvantage when every week the ship was fine. If the point is, other shows were dealing with the same premise, but VOY was handicapped by "X" because VOY had the advantage of being Star Trek. Star Trek had a prebuilt fan base and world to deal with. The Delta Quadrant may have been new, but Starfleet was not. If the box that is being applied is to tie the show's cast, then show them under those limits. Don't pay lip service to those limits.