Is the Federation an Empire?

[Ithekro]

Seems like they were trying to go around the Prime Directive to get what they wanted because they thought the Bak'u were a pre-warp civilization. Now they know this is not the case, they just simply got rid of their technology, but had already had FLT drives and contact with other races. Thus the Federation can mak econtact normally because it is no longer a Prime Directive issue.

The question is, did the rest of the Son'a side with the Dominion after this incident...those that refused to go back to Bak'u? Though the war would not last that much longer. Maybe six more months. This being the lull before the Breen enter the war.

 

[T'Girl]

The lack of particle tech being shown says other wise ...

Admiral: "With metaphasics, life spans will be doubled, an entire new medical science will evolve"

Give it a little time Hartzilla2007.

or Laforge still using implants

I didn't notice LaForge having implants in Nemesis, he demonstrated no unusual visual abilities.

... or the cast not looking any younger

The cast wasn't any younger, but what of the characters they depicted? Plus I could see Picard and the senior officers refusing the treatment for philosophical reasons, the rest of the crew looked nicely youthful.

... so its not like the federation could force them off the planet then anyway.

Given the Federation could force them off before, how would their friendships change anything? As Picard himself pointed out, it's a Federation planet.

There really was no need for the collector other than the Son'a needed a faster treatment.

The other obvious reason is to be able to disburse the metaphasic particles across the Federation. To hundreds of thousands of hospitals and clinics on hundreds of planets.

In order to receive the treatment from the particles, people would not have to uproot their lives and relocate for years to a planet thousands of light years away. They could be treated while maintaining their normal lives.

Beyond that, unless the Bak'u are adamantly opposed to technology on their world ever, there is no reason that the Federation could not negotiate with the Bak'u to put a hospital there ...

In a cut scene, Picard said that he would not permitted the construction of such a hospital.

There are a host of other solutions to this idea, so I don't see another collector being an inevitable occurrence.

If you're going to deliver the "medicine" to the patients, what other solution is there?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Given the Federation could force them off before, how would their friendships change anything? As Picard himself pointed out, it's a Federation planet.

This is a rather old argument, but I still don't believe for a second that a thorough legal determination of the planet's status would back this up at all. If a planet has been continuously inhabited for longer than the Federation has existed and the inhabitants have never assented to joining the Federation, then the planet cannot belong to the Federation.

Of course, to bring things slightly back on track, the reason I believe is is precisely because I do not believe that Federation Law would ever approve such rampant imperialism. If I'm wrong, and Federation law doesn't have a problem with stealing inhabited territory, then I guess there wouldn't be an issue. But then, in that case, why would they bother sharing it with the Sonaa? Most empires, if they found the fountain of youth, would just take it for themselves, not cut a deal with some random third rate power.

 

[T'Girl]

But then, in that case, why would they bother sharing it with the Sonaa?

Because the Federation would want to have business dealing with others in the future?

Most empires, if they found the fountain of youth, would just take it for themselves

Quite the opposite, the people with such a discovery would crow about it and spread it around widely, a fantastic propaganda opportunity.

While not a empire, when the US Department of Defense developed a chemotherapy for the treatment of some cancers, it wasn't kept solely for the treatment of Americans. Instead it was shared with the world.

not cut a deal with some random third rate power

My impression is that the Sona approached the Federation, owing to it being the Federation's planet and rings.

 

[MacLeod]

Given the Federation could force them off before, how would their friendships change anything? As Picard himself pointed out, it's a Federation planet.

This is a rather old argument, but I still don't believe for a second that a thorough legal determination of the planet's status would back this up at all. If a planet has been continuously inhabited for longer than the Federation has existed and the inhabitants have never assented to joining the Federation, then the planet cannot belong to the Federation.

Agreed, the planet had been inhabitated longer than the Federation had existed, so whilst the planet might fall within the Federations sphere of influence that does not automatically make it a Federation planet. No doubt there are plnety of inhabitated worlds that are within Federation space but not part of the Federation due to a vareity of reasons, not wanting to join, not advanced enough etc..

 

[T'Girl]

Couple of things, New Orleans (and other cities) were in existence prior to the formation of America, the inhabitants weren't asked if they wanted to be a part of America. New Orleans is inside of America and is a American city.

Second, if a planet is surrounded by the Federation, but is in a bubble of "not Federation," then it is not "IN" the federation.

The ring planet was "IN" the Federation, per Picard.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

But then, in that case, why would they bother sharing it with the Sonaa?

Because the Federation would want to have business dealing with others in the future?

Most empires, if they found the fountain of youth, would just take it for themselves

Quite the opposite, the people with such a discovery would crow about it and spread it around widely, a fantastic propaganda opportunity.

While not a empire, when the US Department of Defense developed a chemotherapy for the treatment of some cancers, it wasn't kept solely for the treatment of Americans. Instead it was shared with the world.

Yes, they would crow. But they wouldn't share control or credit of the discovery, and in most empires, they probably wouldn't allow it to be used by everyone who wanted it. They would use it like any other weapon - don't screw with us, or you'll never get access to the fountain of youth again.

not cut a deal with some random third rate power

My impression is that the Sona approached the Federation, owing to it being the Federation's planet and rings.

My impression as well, but that doesn't change the fact that there's no real need for the federation to allow the sonaa any involvement at all. They are a bunch of random nobodies with no real strength or bargaining position.

Couple of things, New Orleans (and other cities) were in existence prior to the formation of America, the inhabitants weren't asked if they wanted to be a part of America. New Orleans is inside of America and is a American city.

That's because New Orleans was subject to an empire which basically said 'Hey, we sold your city to those guys over there. Good luck.' Of course, even then the people of New Orleans were actually informed of the jurisdictional change. The first sign the Baku got that anyone claimed the territory they were living on was attempted kidnapping.

Still - this is a (somewhat) separate discussion from what this thread is actually about. The Baku incident is very strangely written and rather inconclusive - not strong evidence for or against the idea that the Federation is actually more imperialistic than it claims.

Second, if a planet is surrounded by the Federation, but is in a bubble of "not Federation," then it is not "IN" the federation.
The ring planet was "IN" the Federation, per Picard.

That's not what he said. He said: 'In Federation space'. Also, he wasn't even really discussing legal principles, just moral ones. He may not even be qualified to say whether or not the council has any legal jurisdiction on the planet. It is entirely possible that federation law provides for the possibility areas within Federation territory that may not fall under the council's jurisdiction, just like American law provides for the possibility of embassies (or how Indian Reservations are exempt from state laws).

 

[Ithekro]

It still doesn't fit as an empire since the council is a multi-planetary government body. The member worlds' governments gather to decide policy and the like, but member worlds can also tell them off. Vulcan seems to do this regularly in Kirk's time. Other worlds hold their own laws over Federation law, so again, the empire cannot be an empire if the "central ruling body" does not have the power to rule all. The Council does not seem to have the power to tell Vulcan what to do. It seeming call tell Earth what to do, but that might be due to it being present on that planet (Marshal Law invoked prior to the Dominion War).

 

[T'Girl]

The Council does not seem to have the power to tell Vulcan what to do. It seeming call tell Earth what to do, but that might be due to it being present on that planet (Marshal Law invoked prior to the Dominion War).

As you said, because the governing body is located on Earth, the Federation would have the ability to create a state of emergency there, but not on any other planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ There's no evidence of that. The president of the Federation can, as far as we know, declare martial law on any member world. There's no indication that this isn't possible, anyway.

Fun fact: In DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost, this was actually going to happen: United Earth security forces were going to be 'federalized' by Jaresh-Inyo. But it got cut for time. I don't think they ever filmed it.

 

[T'Girl]

Second, if a planet is surrounded by the Federation, but is in a bubble of "not Federation," then it is not "IN" the Ffederation.

The ring planet was "IN" the Federation, per Picard.

That's not what he said. He said: 'In Federation space'.

Yes, it's in the Federation, as opposed to being out of the Federation.

Also, he wasn't even really discussing legal principles, just moral ones.

Picard was noting that the ring planet was a part of the Federation's territory.

If that star system were out of the Federation's territory, given the discussion Picard was having with the Admiral, Picard damned well would have pointed it out. By stating that the planet was in the Federation, Picard was making a concession.

He may not even be qualified to say whether or not the council has any legal jurisdiction on the planet.

As a senior officer he most likely was qualified. Knowing where the Federation had legal authority (or didn't) would be a part of his job, as would knowing where the Federation "ended."

If the ring planet existed in a extra-territorial bubble of not-Federation, Picard would have brought it up, he didn't.

 

[fireproof78]

The lack of particle tech being shown says other wise ...

Admiral: "With metaphasics, life spans will be doubled, an entire new medical science will evolve"

Give it a little time Hartzilla2007.

or Laforge still using implants

I didn't notice LaForge having implants in Nemesis, he demonstrated no unusual visual abilities.

The cast wasn't any younger, but what of the characters they depicted? Plus I could see Picard and the senior officers refusing the treatment for philosophical reasons, the rest of the crew looked nicely youthful.

Given the Federation could force them off before, how would their friendships change anything? As Picard himself pointed out, it's a Federation planet.

The other obvious reason is to be able to disburse the metaphasic particles across the Federation. To hundreds of thousands of hospitals and clinics on hundreds of planets.

In order to receive the treatment from the particles, people would not have to uproot their lives and relocate for years to a planet thousands of light years away. They could be treated while maintaining their normal lives.

Beyond that, unless the Bak'u are adamantly opposed to technology on their world ever, there is no reason that the Federation could not negotiate with the Bak'u to put a hospital there ...

In a cut scene, Picard said that he would not permitted the construction of such a hospital.

There are a host of other solutions to this idea, so I don't see another collector being an inevitable occurrence.

If you're going to deliver the "medicine" to the patients, what other solution is there?

I will have to revisit the film, but I'm trying to figure out why a hospital would not be permitted, as well as why it must be delivered? It isn't like, in the Federation, that travel or moving is prohibitively expensive, unless you are wanting to give it to every Federation citizen to prolong their life. In which case, I'm not sure how efficient that would be in the long run.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

As a senior officer he most likely was qualified. Knowing where the Federation had legal authority (or didn't) would be a part of his job, as would knowing where the Federation "ended."

If the ring planet existed in a extra-territorial bubble of not-Federation, Picard would have brought it up, he didn't.

A senior officer is not a legal scholar. The qualifications are (clearly) not the same.

 

[USS Triumphant]

A senior officer is not a legal scholar. The qualifications are (clearly) not the same.

True, broadly they aren't, but knowing the geographic extent of the legal jurisdiction of the Federation is something any starship captain should know, given that they are frequently called upon to inform ships of foreign powers that they have crossed the line and need to turn back. And if they don't have every detail of the exact lines memorized, the computers on board are quite nice, and could be consulted at will.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

^ Seems obvious that was Section 31's doing.

Is Section 31 the Trek Fan's version of "A Wizard Did It"? There's nothing to suggest Section 31 was involved. I suppose its more a No True Christian than A Wizard Did It. Particularly because Section 31 is a part of the Federation so it isn't a defense anyway.

However, the Ba'ku were not members of the Federation, so it still isn't a good example. The plan wasn't to conquer them and force them to become members, it was to secretly move them so they'd never know (which obviously isn't true because they'd start to age). Even then, it was seen as a wartime expediency that Picard thought contradicted Federation values.

 

[Vandervecken]

I'd pose the question: how often does the Federation get involved in stuff like the Baku/Son'a incident?

And I'd answer the question: apparently hardly ever, and even then it has self-correcting mechanisms (honest and fairly just captains/leaders like Picard) that work to prevent the worst (the Baku were not relocated). Nor does the Federation ever, as far as I've seen, conquer by force for the specific purpose of annexing territory. If empire's definition has any meaning at all, and is not stretchable to fit all our personal definitions, then the Federation is not an empire. Its principles are high, its governing mechanisms aim to implement those high principles, and if they sometimes fall short, then it's good to remember that any political structure will have fallible individuals in it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Particularly because Section 31 is a part of the Federation

No, it isn't. They say they are, but they're obviously lying. Section 31 has no legitimacy whatsoever. It's a criminal conspiracy with hints of terrorism. Nothing more. It's no more part of the Federation than ISIS is a part of Syria or Iraq.

 

[Vandervecken]

Particularly because Section 31 is a part of the Federation

No, it isn't. They say they are, but they're obviously lying. Section 31 has no legitimacy whatsoever. It's a criminal conspiracy with hints of terrorism. Nothing more. It's no more part of the Federation than ISIS is a part of Syria or Iraq.

Ah! But our actual international law has it that any nation/government claiming sovereignty over any territory is responsible for any military action emanating from that territory. If you can't control the military action emanating from a particular parcel of land--whatever that action's form--then you can't claim sovereignty over that territory. If Iraq and Syria still claim sovereignty over the geography occupied by ISIS, then they are responsible for any military action by ISIS that extends beyond their borders (of which, as far as I know, there's been none).

This is an entirely sensible requirement for sovereignty--the monopoly on extension of military force beyond claimed borders--because without it governments could both deny responsibility for military force emanating from their territory AND insist that other nations, targeted by said force, have no right to intervene and prevent said extension of force.

So Section 31 IS part of the Federation, if we apply principles of our own international law.

That said, I completely disagree with you on the nature of Sec 31. They are patriots of the first water as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But our actual international law has it that any nation/government claiming sovereignty over any territory is responsible for any military action emanating from that territory.

Source?

 

[Vandervecken]

But our actual international law has it that any nation/government claiming sovereignty over any territory is responsible for any military action emanating from that territory.

Source?

Like a great deal of international law, it's dictated not by a specific legal document but by common practice among nations supported by later judicial opinions. Here, though, is one man's opinion:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQl-qAtNwQ