Is the Federation an Empire?

[Anwar]

Picard was a fool not to employ that weapon against the Borg, if it had worked it would have save countless lives and prevent more from being taken as Borg slaves drones.

Necheyev was correct.

The Puzzle wouldn't have worked, it would have just alerted the Borg to the Feds' attempt at such a thing and provoked a genuine Borg invasion they wouldn't have survived. You don't go around provoking a vastly superior force with something you aren't sure will work.

Perhaps, but it does show and prove that the Federation is willing to use force to get what it wants territorially.

And the order didn't originate with Necheyev, it came from the Council.

If that were true, they wouldn't have allowed those colonists to renounce their citizenship and become Cardassian subjects. They ultimately WERE willing to let them stay on their terms.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Five pages about whether or not a fictional political entity with no consistently defined governmental structure ...

If you don't want to play Triumphant, no one dragged you in here.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying it all, I just also see the futility.

Especially since she had earlier ordered Picard to use the 'unsolvable puzzle' against the Borg, which could be construed as genocide ...

Picard was a fool not to employ that weapon against the Borg, if it had worked it would have save countless lives and prevent more from being taken as Borg slaves drones.

Necheyev was correct.

Especially since you can't commit "genocide" against the Borg. They aren't a race or a species. They're an affliction on other species. Wiping them out would be akin to eliminating plague carriers.

 

[Shawnster]

Mixing canon and not, the FASA role playing game had the Federation at about 1,500 members during the TOS era. But by the time of the movie First Contact, Picard stated the number was 150 plus. This could be an indication that membership in the Federation is rarely permanent.

The Federation in the 24th century didn't rise to 150, it had dropped to that number.

It's not mixing canon and non-canon at all.

Kirk said in Metamorphosis; ": We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life."

In contrast, according to Memory Alpha: By 2373, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds. (DS9: "Battle Lines"; VOY: "Innocence"; Star Trek: First Contact) Its major neighboring powers were the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, and the Ferengi Alliance. Other near-by powers included the First Federation, the Tzenkethi, the Tholian Assembly, the Breen Confederacy, and the Xindi.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It's not mixing canon and non-canon at all.

Kirk said in Metamorphosis; ": We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life."

In contrast, according to Memory Alpha: By 2373, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds. (DS9: "Battle Lines"; VOY: "Innocence"; Star Trek: First Contact) Its major neighboring powers were the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, and the Ferengi Alliance. Other near-by powers included the First Federation, the Tzenkethi, the Tholian Assembly, the Breen Confederacy, and the Xindi.

There is no contradiction. Humanity could be on a thousand planets, and there could still only be just over 150 worlds in the Federation. Some of the worlds they are on would be colonies that haven't reached self-sufficiency and applied for membership. Some might be colonies that have no desire for membership. Many might be ambassadors (and their staff) on a thousand independent worlds or multi-world polities that have relations with the Federation but have not sought membership.

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk said in Metamorphosis; ": We're on a thousand planets and spreading out.

Given that Kirk was talking to Cochrane (another Human), Kirk's "we're" probably meant Humanity was on a thousand planets and expanding.

It wasn't a reference to the Federation.

Humanity could be on a thousand planets, and there could still only be just over 150 worlds in the Federation.

There is some debate as to whether the 150 figure means total planets, or 150 species home planets/home worlds.

I believe it's a 150 home worlds, most of which possess multiple star systems (dozens/hundreds) in their "realms."

Still, every time I hear Picard say 150 planets (spread over 6.000 light years), the number seems small.

A hunk to the Milky Way galaxy 6,000 LY's across holds millions of star systems.

 

[T'Girl]

"... if we can not appeal to their better senses then we must relocate them for their own protetion."

And if the Federation had actually done this, the colonists (years later) wouldn't have been slaughtered by the Jem'Hadar.

Picard was a fool not to employ that weapon against the Borg

The Puzzle wouldn't have worked

It had a good chance of working, and Picard's reasoning not to deploy it was flawed.

If that were true ...

Are you saying Picard wasn't going to just beam the colonists up and leave?

 

[Shawnster]

Let's not forget the attempted forced relocation of the Baku simply because so mebody wanted to mine or exploit their planet's rings.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Seems obvious that was Section 31's doing.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Federation Council again (not S31), the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yeah, sure, Dougherty said he was acting on orders from the council, but there's no reason to believe this was actually true. Assuming he was in fact Section 31 - which the novels did - he could be counted on to lie whenever it suited him.

And let's be frank - this thing with the Ba'ku was right up S31's alley. They're the ones who pull stunts like that, not the real Federation government.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Too easy for Picard to check on, Admiral Dougherty was operationg under Federation Council directives.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ Yeah, sure, Dougherty said he was acting on orders from the council, but there's no reason to believe this was actually true. Assuming he was in fact Section 31 - which the novels did - he could be counted on to lie whenever it suited him.

And let's be frank - this thing with the Ba'ku was right up S31's alley. They're the ones who pull stunts like that, not the real Federation government.

Plus the federation council did scrap the project rather quickly considering how fast Riker was able to get back.

^ Too easy for Picard to check on, Admiral Dougherty was operationg under Federation Council directives.

Except by the time Picard could check and get back Dougherty would have already done the deed.

 

[MacLeod]

But the council might have scrapped it because it was deemed to be an internal affair.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Picard could not have checked with the Council to verify Dougherty's story, because there was a communications blackout IIRC. Either deliberately imposed by the Son'a and Dougherty, or naturally occurring.

 

[T'Girl]

^Except the Council didn't scrap it, they simply oredered a review.

Given that nothing changed about the particles health benefit, and that the Council already knew the Baku were colonists, I believe the collection of the ring would have continued as soon as a new collector was built.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But the council might have scrapped it because it was deemed to be an internal affair.

They wouldn't have known that until after The Enterprise had returned to the Ba'ku planet and picked up Picard since Picard and co. were the ones who found out while the Enterprise was trying to contact the council..

^Except the Council didn't scrap it, they simply oredered a review.

Given that nothing changed about the particles health benefit, and that the Council already knew the Baku were colonists, I believe the collection of the ring would have continued as soon as a new collector was built.

The lack of particle tech being shown says other wise, you know such as the lack of use for the whole ongoing war thing, or Laforge still using implants, or the cast not looking any younger, and ect.

Not to mention the Son'a and Ba'ku were starting to kiss and makeup at the end of the film so its not like the federation could force them off the planet then anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

^Except the Council didn't scrap it, they simply oredered a review.

Given that nothing changed about the particles health benefit, and that the Council already knew the Baku were colonists, I believe the collection of the ring would have continued as soon as a new collector was built.

There really was no need for the collector other than the Son'a needed a faster treatment. Beyond that, unless the Bak'u are adamantly opposed to technology on their world ever, there is no reason that the Federation could not negotiate with the Bak'u to put a hospital there to allow for the care and treatment of wounded.

There are a host of other solutions to this idea, so I don't see another collector being an inevitable occurrence.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering how small the Bak'u and any probably Son'a returnee's population would be centered in the one town, the Federation could setup another town on the other side of the planet to gain the benefits.

 

[Anwar]

That's the thing. The Feds never thought about just asking the Baku if they could let others onto the planet.

 

[fireproof78]

Considering how small the Bak'u and any probably Son'a returnee's population would be centered in the one town, the Federation could setup another town on the other side of the planet to gain the benefits.

Exactly so. To me, the idea that the collector has to be employed in order to benefit is a logical fallacy, designed to put our heroes in the right by preventing the exploitation of the Bak'u. Where it fails is by not realizing that once the Son'a problem is removed there is no reason to not establish a hospital on the planet, and in no way impede the Baku's way of life.

So, it there is the possibility that the Federation Council could negotiate with the Bak'u, rather than being forced over a barrel by the Son'a.