Is the Federation an Empire?

[T'Girl]

The word "empire" implies some measure of evil intent, or the assumption of same.

Not automatically, it could simply be a type of government structure. It wouldn't even have to be growing/conquering beyond it long established borders to be considered a empire.

Whether the empire is "evil" would depend on it's policies and how they are implemented.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So what is a 'good' empire, then?

 

[BigJake]

So what is a 'good' empire, then?

Depends who you ask.

Was the British Empire "good"? The British certainly tend to think so on the whole, with certain misgivings about unfortunate racial attitudes taken into account. Some of their former subjects and allies agree, others don't.

Was the Roman Empire "good"? Kind of a complicated question, since it was so many things to so many eras and ranged over pretty much all the possibilities of human nature.

Was/is the American Empire (or "Hegemony" if you must) "good"? (There were arguably a sequence of these: American conquest of the continent as the first -- including a failed attempt at conquering Canada -- American expansion overseas in the late 19th century as the second, and the post-WWII "hegemony" as the third... but for our purposes we're talking about the third.) Americans of Roddenberry's day certainly thought so pretty much without reservation (outside of the counterculture, anyway), with not a few of their allies agreeing with them, and Star Trek is in fact one of the fictional reflections of that. If you were on the receiving end of one of their interventions, or if one is looking at the question from post- the humiliating farce of the Iraq War, one might be inclined to differ or be more reserved in one's assessment.

Most empires, like most human institutions, are in real life complicated mixtures of good and bad. Trek even recognized that, within certain boundaries, for Federation "hegemony."

 

[fireproof78]

But, that ignores the politics, the rules and laws that would govern such a secession. The problem is that we don't know what laws govern the Federation. We lack enough information to make a determination.

There's a reason I'll only go so far as saying that the Federation is a fictionalized version of how a real-world "empire" sees itself. We're not likely to ever have enough "detailed information" about why someone would secede from the Federation or what the finer points of its laws and regulations are, because ultimately it's myth. It's the setting of an action-adventure franchise. It's there to be sympathetic and be the good guy, not to function like an analogue of dreary real-world politics or to be the stuff of minutely-detailed political and legal drama. Talking about what kind of myth it represents, and from whose basic viewpoint, is as far as we can really go.

If there's ever a story about someone "seceding" from the Federation (unlikely, because as I said before, this is an idealized state of Good Guys and who would secede from the Good Guys?) you can be reasonably sure that it will be about some sinister alien force mucking with Federation politics that our heroes (whoever they may be) need to thwart.

It is interesting to view it as a reflection of current culture, which is one of the reasons I like ID so much. However, I think a major flaw in trying to deal with the myth it represents is caught in the details that it is an action-adventure, and the governments (and societies) are largely painted in one dimension. The Klingons and the Romulans got better treatment, but it was not always clear, or, as you say, the minutia of the laws and such, were not portrayed in any great detail.

For me, I don't necessarily think that a secession story will necessarily be about the people under some alien influence to disrupt the Federation. It could become a discussion about what the Federation has become and what it used to be about, much in the way the New Fundamentalists were in "He who is without sin" or even the Maquis, to some degree (as was already pointed out by someone else).

It's funny that in the end it is just a piece of entertainment, but at the same time, it is interesting to consider how the Federation would work. Despite the heavy American influence (no denying that fact) the Federation takes several cues from the UN, including a council, and only one, rather than two houses, like many other powers. It has a president, who we are not sure how is elected, and a single council, who's members represent their worlds.

Taking that cue, Earth, Vulcan, Andor and Tellar, may be similar to the US, Russia, China, UK and France in that they are the permanent members ("founding members") of the Council and have certain sway in votes or matters. How much influence or sway they have is debatable, though they do intervene in Starfleet matters as the matter dictates, such as Kirk facing the Federation Council and President, rather than a court-martial.

There are a lot of different takes, and the Federation could act in an imperial matter, but then so can many governments. The problem of government is that so few people can impact the lives of so many. The Federation may be more idealized simply because humanity has reached a certain level of "enlightenment" or whatever they call it.

Maybe we are too cynical and not enlightened enough to understand how the Federation can work

 

[T'Girl]

So what is a 'good' empire, then?

The people would democratically elect their representatives to the one central power, the internal policies and justice system would be fair and well meaning, the government would be as nice to the surrounding powers as the surrounding power would let them.

If there's ever a story about someone "seceding" from the Federation ...

If you want to venture into the realm of the non-canon, the novel-verse a few years back had a storyline concerning the departure of Andor from the warm embrace of the Federation.

When Star Trek was still new, Gene Roddenberry was asked how big the Federation was, he said it could be a dozen worlds or a million (I've always seen that as a really good answer).

Mixing canon and not, the FASA role playing game had the Federation at about 1,500 members during the TOS era. But by the time of the movie First Contact, Picard stated the number was 150 plus. This could be an indication that membership in the Federation is rarely permanent.

The Federation in the 24th century didn't rise to 150, it had dropped to that number

One possible explanation for the decrease is that some fans see the Federation of Kirk and the century later Federation of Picard as being fundamentally different. The former being a UN, the later a federal government. The transition resulting in 90% of the members canceling their memberships.

For me, I don't necessarily think that a secession story will necessarily be about the people under some alien influence to disrupt the Federation. It could become a discussion about what the Federation has become and what it used to be about ...

I tend to see it more as a canceling of a membership, and not a "secession."

Putting that to the side, there could be many reason to want to enter the Federation, but also as many to want to later leave. France left NATO in 1966 because (simply version) de Gaulle felt it was being dominated and he wanted France be more independent. If Federation members are equal only on paper, with some members being "more equal" this might result in departures. The original founding members having a UN security council style power arrangement might be built into the Federation's charter.

Taking that cue, Earth, Vulcan, Andor and Tellar, may be similar to the US, Russia, China, UK and France in that they are the permanent members ("founding members") of the Council and have certain sway in votes or matters.

In TUC, the Federation government opened dialog with the Klingon government because the Vulcan government told them to.

... the Federation takes several cues from the UN, including a council, and only one, rather than two houses, like many other powers. It has a president, who we are not sure how is elected, and a single council, who's members represent their worlds.

It's interesting that while the Fed Prez self-describes himself as the "commander-in-chief" it very obvious that the Council actually holds that position and power.

I wonder if the Federation even has had a President for the majority of it's history. We rarely hear of such a person and it's possible that the office come and goes with occasional reorganizations. The majority of the time it's "The Council."

... Kirk facing the Federation Council and President, rather than a court-martial.

The President at that point in Federation history might have been reduced to a mere figure head, it's difficult to imaging President Obama presiding over a naval officer's courts martial.

Maybe we are too cynical and not enlightened enough to understand how the Federation can work

It' a home owner association, with a really good citizens watch.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Five pages about whether or not a fictional political entity with no consistently defined governmental structure (because it has been written by authors with varying ideas) fits the definition of a word that has multiple meanings, with different participants involved in the discussion clearly basing their opinions on different meanings.

Good job, guys. If I were Q, I definitely wouldn't let you out past Farpoint under any circumstances.

 

[BigJake]

If I were Q, I definitely wouldn't let you out past Farpoint under any circumstances.

Totally worth it.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I'm not going to get into whether the Federation is an empire or not, but regarding one point that was brought up a few times earlier in the thread, one reason Earth might be politically powerful - even close to dominant - in the Federation that *doesn't* involve it being "the throneworld" or whatever could be that a large proportion of voting members planets of the Federation are established human colony worlds.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I hate to bring in the low brow, but the only reason Earth is so powerful in the Federation is because Star Trek was made by humans.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I hate to bring in the low brow, but the only reason Earth is so powerful in the Federation is because Star Trek was made by humans.

You didn't bring that in - it was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Now I'll tell you the same thing I wanted to tell them - QUIT METAGAMING.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The Federation has a General Order on the books that reserves it the right to glass planets in case they pose a threat to member worlds. It also generally reserves to itself the right to police interstellar law within its boundaries, quarantine planets, regulate commerce and so on; those are all parts of the fundamental mission of the original Enterprise. In more than one TOS episode we see the Enterprise engaged in Cold War-style proxy struggles with the Klingons which include involvement in local dynastic politics or arming factions in a local struggle.

You can dress all of that up in whatever language you like, but those are basically analogous to the functions of American imperium / mandate viz. NATO during the Cold War era, translated into a sci-fi setting. It isn't ambiguous.

Well, all of that is relative to outside powers. When using the word "empire" I think the question is more about the central authority's relationship with its constituent parts. How those parts came to be part of the entity, how they are controlled, whether or not they have a say in the process, and whether or not they can voluntarily withdraw from the entity.

The Maquis is really the only example worth discussing because there's no other indications of imperialism within the Federation or signs of conquests of peoples and incorporating them into their system. They're the only example of anyone breaking away from the Federation, but what happened next is ambiguous. For starters, they didn't break away from Federation territory. Technically, they broke away from Cardassian territory and the response was to eliminate them rather than conquer them. However, they seemed to be viewed as a Federation responsibility and were ultimately absorbed back into the Federation (although perhaps voluntarily by that point). It's a muddy example either way, though.

 

[USS Triumphant]

They're the only example of anyone breaking away from the Federation, but what happened next is ambiguous.

On screen. Relatively recent Treklit (which as far as I'm concerned, might as well be canon since it is generally well done, tries to have consistent continuity, and there is no other source for new PrimeTrek stories to speak of) has another example, the handling of which would seem to me to be a fairly strong argument against the Federation being an empire as the question has been variously framed throughout this thread.

 

[T'Girl]

Five pages about whether or not a fictional political entity with no consistently defined governmental structure ...

If you don't want to play Triumphant, no one dragged you in here.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I hate to bring in the low brow, but the only reason Earth is so powerful in the Federation is because Star Trek was made by humans.

You didn't bring that in - it was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Now I'll tell you the same thing I wanted to tell them - QUIT METAGAMING.

Well, JirinPanthosa said it happened because it was a TV show:

Earth is basically to the other member-worlds of the Federation as America is (or sees itself as being) to other member-nations of NATO / "the free world."

I think the only reason it appears that way is because the writers need to make Earth the center of things in order to make the audience relate to it more. From a neutral observer in the ST Universe they may observe other planets to be equally powerful and important.

The Federation is expansionist, but it's diplomatically expansionist rather than militaristically expansionist.

As I see it, JirinPanthosa in effect blamed the audience, as if Star Trek had to be "dumbed down" for the audience, so to speak. I think he's right in that.

But I was getting at an additional and somewhat different point, with my tongue only a little in cheek. I didn't say that Star Trek was made for humans, I said it was made by humans.

My point was that it's human nature to glorify your own side. Not only might audiences not want to watch stories that make humans look (fundamentally) bad in some way, but also storytellers might not even feel like telling them in the first place. The pattern of glorifying one's own side in a narrative is a trope that's been oft-repeated since ancient times. I'm saying that Star Trek is no different than mythological narratives in that regard. Star Trek isn't a cautionary tale about human extinction, and nor is it generally nihilistic. Ergo, in this context, it's human nature to glorify humans. Since it was made by Americans and for Americans, it glorifies America.

These "meta" points are important, because they help filter what's on screen, and in that regard I also agree with JirinPanthosa. The parallels between NATO and the UN are well taken, and I largely agree with them, but there's a temptation to somewhat overinterpret what's on screen, that regularly occurs when we try to glean continuity from canon. YMMV.

---

As to whether the Federation is an empire, I'm going to say no. Federations and empires are two different things, in that the former has space for more autonomy in its member states than the latter. The dots I would need to see connected to call the Federation an empire (of Earth) would be that Earth was usurping the sovereignty of member worlds. I don't recall seeing that, although Section 31 might have been such a puppet master. The view in "Mirror, Mirror" of the Empire was to compare and contrast with what the Federation specifically was. That's narrative evidence that the Federation is not in fact an empire.

 

[Ithekro]

One thing to remember is the balance of power prior to the creation of the Federation as we understand it. The Federation is formed around a lesser power (Earth) to get the larger powers (Andor, Vulcan, Tellar) to work together. Other lesser powers (Denobula for example, probably Trill Prime, and other worlds) would follow later, and other larger established civilizations and independent colonies would join in.

Earth is a minor power, at best, that is being used as the central meeting location for a government of larger powers. Over time, Earth becomes more equal in status and starts to seemingly dominate the Starfleet and expand its colonies more so that the other major Federation planets. Though it might be just be what we are seeing rather than the reality behind it, as the other non-human races are rather proud (Vulcan in its own way can tell the Federation what to do and direct policy and provide influence to get a starship captain out of a court marshal offense). We don't get much on what Andor or Tellar are doing, but that might be because our window into the Federation is so small. We basically are following the lives and times of around 35 people for a few years of their lives, off and on. And nearly all of it from a military-like point of view. We don't really get to seem what civilian life is like all that often.

If the balancing act of Earth continues for the centuries after Archer's time, than Earth is basically the neutral ground where the other Federation planets meet to conduct governmental business. Where they decided to bases the combined exploration/defense forces so to not let one of their rivals have that power (Andor and Vulcan). The Federation Council does not appear to be able to really tell a major member world what to do, and planetary laws seem to come before Federation law as seem on Vulcan and I think Trill Prime. Starfleet seemingly is dominated by humans, something the Klingons have observed in the 23rd century. Why that is may be due to the location of the Acadamy. A local school of Earth for those wanting to advance in sciences and engineering. Or what we were seeing in Kirk's day was the start of the more integrated Federation Starfleet, as oppose to the Earth Starfleet beng one of multiple defense forces for member worlds under a unified command structure, but still operating independently along species lines. Vulcans didn't generally join Starfleet (Earth's) until Spock, and Human crewed starships seemed to have less other races onboard until a hundred years after the formation of the Federation. Could this be a sign that the other members had their own fleets? Did they not communicate all that well (leaving Enterprise to be the "only" ship in the quadrant)?

It just seems like we have too narrow a view into the Federation to know just what it is. But from its starting days as a Coalition of Planets, it seems more like the Earth was the glue to get the other race to talk to each other, while the other races were the actual powers compared to the relatively weak Earth. At least in terms of technolgy and society.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Maquis is really the only example worth discussing because there's no other indications of imperialism within the Federation or signs of conquests of peoples and incorporating them into their system.

I don't even buy the Maquis as an example of this, simply because from "Journey's End" we know that it was their idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place - the Federation offered to relocate them, but they refused. That doesn't justify the actions that the Cardassians would later do, but it refutes the idea that the Federation forced those colonists to do (or not do) anything or that it handed away their lands without asking. The Federation DID ask, and was turned down. That, IMHO, lets it off the proverbial hook.

And the Federation has precisely zero examples of forcing worlds to join against their will. Eddington, as usual, is full of shit - he compared the Federation to the Borg, when in reality it's anything but that. No world has ever been forced to join the Federation, or prevented from leaving it. Therefore, the Federation cannot logically be an empire. The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg, etc. all qualify as empires, because they force worlds to join and won't let them leave. The Federation never does this.

And as I said, though, the Federation has the absolute right to ask a world to join, and to point out the benefits that the world will receive if it does. Doing that is not being an empire. It's being realistic.

(As for the example of the South in the Civil War: That doesn't make the USA an empire, either. I think the problem with that is, the South decided on its own to secede. In Texas v. White, the Supreme Court ruled that a state simply declaring that it's seceded is unconstitutional:

When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

And, I might add, the South fired the first shots in the war, didn't it? Firing on Fort Sumter, I mean?)

 

[T'Girl]

but it refutes the idea that the Federation forced those colonists to do (or not do) anything ...

Picard: "What if these [colonists] refuse to be evacuated?
Necheyev: " Then your orders will be to remove them by whatever means are necessary."

The problem with your position Mr. Laser Beam is that the Federation was fully prepared to force the colonists to leave. Picard was going to beam them up without notice and had begun to set up the equipment to do so.

If Wesley hadn't been there, if the Cardassian hadn't arrived six weeks early Picard likely would have simply moved the colonists.

My feeling is that Admiral Necheyev was going from ship to ship handing out assignment to their Captains, each ship being assigned to evacuate a individual colony. So were no colonists forcefully moved?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'd chalk that up to Nechayev overstepping her authority. Especially since she had earlier ordered Picard to use the 'unsolvable puzzle' against the Borg, which could be construed as genocide - obviously against Federation law. And also because the Federation was satistfied with the outcome of this episode, in which the colonists willingly stayed in the DMZ.

Although, even if Nechayev was legally entitled to order the colonists relocated by force, this still doesn't indicate any imperial tendencies. It's a form of eminent domain, which is legal.

 

[T'Girl]

^ I'd chalk that up to Nechayev overstepping her authority.

Picard: "I strongly urge you to request an emergency session of the Federation Council. The issue of Dorvan Five must be reopened."

Necheyev: "I made that request two days ago. The answer was no."

Sounds more like Necheyev was acting upon directives from the Federation Council, and not her own authority.

Especially since she had earlier ordered Picard to use the 'unsolvable puzzle' against the Borg, which could be construed as genocide ...

Picard was a fool not to employ that weapon against the Borg, if it had worked it would have save countless lives and prevent more from being taken as Borg slaves drones.

Necheyev was correct.

... even if Nechayev was legally entitled to order the colonists relocated by force, this still doesn't indicate any imperial tendencies.

Perhaps, but it does show and prove that the Federation is willing to use force to get what it wants territorially.

And the order didn't originate with Necheyev, it came from the Council.

 

[MacLeod]

I can almost imagine the debate in the Council chambers

"We can not allow our citizens to placed under Cardassian Jurdisdiction"

"They refuse to relocate"

etc... eventually coming to a decision that goes something along the lines

"We can not permit Federation citizens to become potnetial victims/pawns of the Cardassian Union if we can not appeal to their better senses then we must relocate them for their own protetion."