Star Trek (all eps!) Bechdel Test Review!!!

[JirinPanthosa]

Granted I'm not an expert on women, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that women who are in the military often talk to each other about military stuff.

Hey, I'm listening to two female co-workers talk about right now. One is a software engineer and one is a QA engineer. They are talking about...get ready...SOFTWARE BUGS!

It's staggering just how often real life passes the Bechdel Test.

If you are referring to stereotypical social interaction between members of the same gender, I have a feeling female viewers would be as uninterested in hearing men talk about football, belching and beating each other up as you think male viewers would be interested in talking about whatever stereotypical thing you think women talk about.

 

[Commishsleer]

While I like the original series, it's clearly sexist on its own merits with or without the Bechdel test. I'd argue it's one of its clearly weaker points, mostly owing to the absence of meaningful female characters (who therefore only interact with male characters).

Yes. I love TOS, truly love it, but the sexism in it is one of its biggest and most inexcusable shortcomings.

Isn't being made in the 60s an excuse? Compared to say series made in the 21st century.
I know its fairly sexist compared to what we expect today but it has its moments when you see the female Romulan Fleet Commander, when Helen Noel kicks that guy, when Dr Dehner saves Kirk, when Tamula guards Mea, when Martha Landon kicks butt in 'The Apple'.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

While I like the original series, it's clearly sexist on its own merits with or without the Bechdel test. I'd argue it's one of its clearly weaker points, mostly owing to the absence of meaningful female characters (who therefore only interact with male characters).

Yes. I love TOS, truly love it, but the sexism in it is one of its biggest and most inexcusable shortcomings.

Isn't being made in the 60s an excuse? Compared to say series made in the 21st century.
I know its fairly sexist compared to what we expect today but it has its moments when you see the female Romulan Fleet Commander, when Helen Noel kicks that guy, when Dr Dehner saves Kirk, when Tamula guards Mea, when Martha Landon kicks butt in 'The Apple'.

It's not a good excuse for a couple of reasons.

Number one (ha!): Granted, we're talking about a time with a less progressive mainstream. However, there were other shows of the period that had females leads who did more than those on TOS. Mission: Impossible springs to mind. I'd be curious to know M:I's Bechdel test scores. Surely, both Lost in Space and Gilligan's Island are going to cream Star Trek on the Bechdel test, though I'd like to see their scores too.

[Edit - OK, in honesty, the first point alone wouldn't be remarkable, assuming the TOS's results really were typical for 1960s TV shows, either generally or within certain genres that TOS might have been seen as having similar appeal to (like, say, westerns). But then there's point number two.]

Number two (also ha!): Gene Roddenberry loved to spin the narrative that Star Trek was progressive. If you're going to brag about your show, it'd be nice if it lived up to the hype.

That said, I like many of the female characters in Star Trek. I like what they say, I like what they do; I like a lot about them. It's really unfortunate that the women guest stars usually got to do so much more than the regular women cast members (who weren't even technically regulars). Also, what we tend to see are individual women interacting mostly if not exclusively with men.

However, not even TMP can manage to pass the low bar of the Bechdel test: "Uhura and Ilia both talk to Christine, but Christine never responds to either of them. When they nearly speak, it's because Chekov's been injured." This was made a decade later and was Roddenberry's baby. Sigh.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I have mixed feelings about applying cultural relativism to older media. Like, yeah it's racist/sexist by today's standards, but it was back in time! Usually my conclusion is, you forgive it if the result has a positive artistic effect.

Star Trek would have artistically improved if it showed more authoritative females, thus I do not forgive it.

There were also times like Space Seed where women were ready to betray everything they believed in after having met a charismatic male for a few hours, and Turnabout Intruder where they state that Kirk would not be allowed to continue as captain despite his proven competence just because he had the body of a female, and the female who takes over his body tries to start executing people left and right.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Ds9 turned Quark into a mincing, simpering emotional mess when they made him a woman. That was even more embarrassing than Turnabout Intruder because we had no 60's to blame.

 

[Drone]

The only episode I can think of that would stand any chance of failing the reverse Bechdel test might be the one where Janeway and Chakotay are stranded on that planet due to a virus and all the conversation on the ship revolves around whether to go back for her.

Or, some others might depend on whether you regard the Doctor to be male.

Well, those conversations, while they involved Janeway, were about the implications of a command decision, the impact on the crew of abandoning their two most senior officers, and the possibility of reaching some kind of temporary accord and dialgoue with a deadly enemy. Even if one argues they are about a woman, they certainly aren't oriented towards the crew's romantic feelings or relationship with her.

So by virtue of Harry's up close and personal abject failure in making a convincing argument to Tuvok, almost earning the lash in the process, I would argue that Resolutions would actually pass the distaff exam.

 

[Commishsleer]

Yes. I love TOS, truly love it, but the sexism in it is one of its biggest and most inexcusable shortcomings.

Isn't being made in the 60s an excuse? Compared to say series made in the 21st century.
I know its fairly sexist compared to what we expect today but it has its moments when you see the female Romulan Fleet Commander, when Helen Noel kicks that guy, when Dr Dehner saves Kirk, when Tamula guards Mea, when Martha Landon kicks butt in 'The Apple'.

It's not a good excuse for a couple of reasons.

Number one (ha!): Granted, we're talking about a time with a less progressive mainstream. However, there were other shows of the period that had females leads who did more than those on TOS. Mission: Impossible springs to mind. I'd be curious to know M:I's Bechdel test scores. Surely, both Lost in Space and Gilligan's Island are going to cream Star Trek on the Bechdel test, though I'd like to see their scores too.

[Edit - OK, in honesty, the first point alone wouldn't be remarkable, assuming the TOS's results really were typical for 1960s TV shows, either generally or within certain genres that TOS might have been seen as having similar appeal to (like, say, westerns). But then there's point number two.]

Number two (also ha!): Gene Roddenberry loved to spin the narrative that Star Trek was progressive. If you're going to brag about your show, it'd be nice if it lived up to the hype.

That said, I like many of the female characters in Star Trek. I like what they say, I like what they do; I like a lot about them. It's really unfortunate that the women guest stars usually got to do so much more than the regular women cast members (who weren't even technically regulars). Also, what we tend to see are individual women interacting mostly if not exclusively with men.

However, not even TMP can manage to pass the low bar of the Bechdel test: "Uhura and Ilia both talk to Christine, but Christine never responds to either of them. When they nearly speak, it's because Chekov's been injured." This was made a decade later and was Roddenberry's baby. Sigh.

I'd argue that while Gilligan's island and lost in Space might pass the test mainly because they both have 3 women regulars, they are more sexist than TOS because most of the time the women in those series are mainly involved in making dinner for the men.

I suspect the reason that TOS is as sexist as it is is because of GR. He wrote "Turnabout Intruder" after all. I think in theory he wanted TOS to be progressive but also he wanted women to be sexy and available and non-threatening.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'd argue that while Gilligan's island and lost in Space might pass the test mainly because they both have 3 women regulars, they are more sexist than TOS because most of the time the women in those series are mainly involved in making dinner for the men.

Although Mary Ann may have baked a lot of coconut cream pies, there wasn't a sunny day that Gilligan couldn't ruin.

I suspect the reason that TOS is as sexist as it is is because of GR. He wrote "Turnabout Intruder" after all. I think in theory he wanted TOS to be progressive but also he wanted women to be sexy and available and non-threatening.

Interesting take on it.

 

[Plum]

Oh man, Turnabout Intruder! Arg! "If only, if only".

Funny but, imho, TOS was rather less sexist than a lot of tv in that "Mad Men" period of American culture. Watching The Twilight Zone is enlightening as, though many episodes were wonderfully written, they almost universally contain a parade of stepford wives constantly asking the men what's going on and offering a martini.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Oh man, Turnabout Intruder! Arg! "If only, if only".

Funny but, imho, TOS was rather less sexist than a lot of tv in that "Mad Men" period of American culture. Watching The Twilight Zone is enlightening as, though many episodes were wonderfully written, they almost universally contain a parade of stepford wives constantly asking the men what's going on and offering a martini.

I remember in one episode, they respond to criticism about inability to write women at the end and say the next episode will feature a well written female.

The next episode is about a woman being victimized by a mysterious man. (Turns out to be a 'She was dead the whole time' thing, but still, the episode is presented in the context of a terrified woman fleeing from a hostile male stranger, who just happened to be Death).

 

[erastus25]

Ds9 turned Quark into a mincing, simpering emotional mess when they made him a woman. That was even more embarrassing than Turnabout Intruder because we had no 60's to blame.

It's amazing that DS9 managed to generate one of the top two most offensive Star Trek episodes EVER that late in its run. Just an inexcusable mess.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think the Ferengi episodes were always viewed as their excuse to do dumb shit, so it's not all that surprising. If anything, I think the level of sophistication in the episodes devolved as time went on.

In its defense, I bet it was hoping to approach something similar to Some Like It Hot without really thinking about anything. Plus, Quark was never turned into a woman, he was just given the appearance of one. Maybe his personality changes says more about Quark than anything else.