Peter Capaldi continues to show how awesome he is

[DWF]

I specifically said I'd give a female Doctor a chance, but it wouldn't be the same character. It would basically be the end of the Doctor Who franchise that's been around for 50+ years. She wouldn't be the Doctor, even if she steals the name. Could it be good? Possibly, depending on who they cast. It wouldn't be Doctor Who, though.

Why would it he end of Doctor Who, do you really believe that people en masse would stop watching the show? And if you see the Doctor regenerate into a female how would she have stolen his name?

 

[kirk55555]

It would be the people in charge stealing the name for a different person. Also, is it that hard to believe that fans of a show don't want massive changes? I do think a female Timelord calling herself The Doctor would lose viewers. Its just a totally different show at that point. I'm all for female leads, but they need to be their own characters, not rule 63 versions of popular people. To use superheroesas an example , Batwoman is cool because she's her own great character, they didn't give Bruce a gender swap to bring in female readers. I'd actually really like to see a female Timelord on the show, the closest we've had (in nuWho) was River Song and I really liked her. It just needs to be in addition to The Doctor, not replacing the main character with a female character and slapping his name on her.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Starbuck in BSG is actually an excellent example. I far prefer her!

I still would prefer a male doctor because of my own selfish wants. However I am not at all against the concept of having a female doctor. It actually shouldn't be this big of a deal.

 

[Christopher]

It actually shouldn't be this big of a deal.

Especially since the Doctor is so many different people over time. If you don't like what's done with one Doctor, just wait three or so years. It's not the end of the world, and why should one person's preferences about the Doctor be binding on everyone else?

The people who want the Doctor to be male have had their way for fifty-plus years now. It's petty to be so grudging about letting other fans be satisfied for a change.

 

[kirk55555]

Starbuck in BSG is actually an excellent example. I far prefer her!

I still would prefer a male doctor because of my own selfish wants. However I am not at all against the concept of having a female doctor. It actually shouldn't be this big of a deal.

I can't really compare Starbucks, since I've barely seen the original. In NuBSG she was ok, but not great. She could be irritating, and she was part of the show jumping the shark at the end. I really don't get why so many people seem to really like her. I just think she's ok, but I could see the original being better, I'd just need to see more of him.

It actually shouldn't be this big of a deal.

Especially since the Doctor is so many different people over time. If you don't like what's done with one Doctor, just wait three or so years. It's not the end of the world, and why should one person's preferences about the Doctor be binding on everyone else?

The people who want the Doctor to be male have had their way for fifty-plus years now. It's petty to be so grudging about letting other fans be satisfied for a change.

Well then, by that logic I can't wait until the next Titan book has an alien force permanently gender swap Riker and Troi. They've been male/female since the late eighties, its definitely time for a change Actually, some aliens should just gender swap everyone in the Star Trek universe. Elderly french women don't have enough representation in Star Trek, so Jeanne-Luc Picard is far overdue Or, better yet, get rid of all male characters all together. Then, there will be a whole universe of only female characters, maybe then the PC police will be happy.

Seriously, why do people hate pre-established characters? Why can't people just enjoy characters the way they are? If you want different types of characters, by all means make them. But, don't take away other people's ability to enjoy new stories with the characters they enjoy in the process.

 

[DWF]

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2014-...doctor-one-day

"Could there ever be a female Doctor? Well, the man who could ultimately decide – BBC director of television Danny Cohen – has revealed that he is up for the idea.

Asked at today’s Edinburgh International Television Festival whether there would ever be a woman Time Lord, Cohen said: “I hope so”."

Or TvOvermind:-

"Reporting from the annual Edinburgh TV Festival, The Hollywood Reporter gathered some quotes from the BBC’s TV chief, Danny Cohen, and one of the most interesting soundbites that he offered was his opinion about the possibility of a female actress landing the leading role on Doctor Who.

“I hope so,” Cohen said, expressing his desire to see a female time lord.

Unfortunately, Cohen didn’t express just how soon we could possibly see a female Doctor and provided no real specifics on a time table for when this could happen on the cult sci-fi series, which returns for a new season this weekend with actor Peter Capaldi now in the titular role."

http://www.tvovermind.com/doctor-who...someday-238710

 

[kirk55555]

Well, a noncommittal "I hope so" from a guy who might not even still be around by the time it might be considered in the future by whoever the showrunner is definitely shows how likely it is to happen. Heck, its practically a guarantee

 

[DWF]

It would be the people in charge stealing the name for a different person. Also, is it that hard to believe that fans of a show don't want massive changes?

the whole stealing a name thing makes no sense. And it really matters only to the viewers of the show not the fans on the internet, who for the most part don't seem to care. And as always if you don't like the present Doctor there's always another one. The show went though a masive change when Troughton came along and again when Eccleston became the Doctor, somehow I think fandom can survive a female Doctor.

 

[kirk55555]

You really don't think average TV viewers would care if The Doctor randomly became a woman? They'd probably be more confused than big fans, since I doubt non nerds remember gender swapping being established in one line of dialog in one episode a few years ago. Also, I'm pretty sure a TV audience being resistant to change isn't just a nerd thing. You seem to think it would go off without a hitch, and that's just ridiculous.

Also, the show may survive a female Doctor, but only because its gotten so big its probably impossible for one unpopular series to kill it. She'd be gone after one series. The PC police would be happy she's there, but the average TV viewer would be confused and want to know where The Doctor went, and a good deal of hardcore fans would be complaining. I'm pretty confident it won't be happening anytime soon. Capaldi will probably be around for a few series, and I'm sure the show will just keep going the way it always has. A female Doctor is really a non issue right now, regardless of how much the PC brigade want it.

In the end, I'd watch a female Doctor. I'd probably hate her more than I hate the 7th Doctor (well, actually since she wouldn't be the real Doctor I suppose the 7th would still be my most disliked), but its Doctor Who. At this point they'd have to turn The Doctor into a serial killer or a literal circus clown to get me to stay away. But, I'd rather the show not jump the shark and rule 63 the Doctor. He's a guy, he's always been a guy, and I doubt he'll ever not be a guy, regardless of how much the PC police demand that every character be changed and diversified so that they can feel smug and laugh at people who liked the real character.

 

[DWF]

Why wouldn't she be the real Doctor, just because you say so?

 

[kirk55555]

The real Doctor is a male Timelord from Galifrey. Just because PC police don't want that to be true, it is. A woman can call herself The Doctor, but it doesn't make her The Doctor. For me, the gender a character is created with is the gender of the character. If something as essential as the gender is changed, its no longer the same character, regardless of the official line. Its a rebooted character who has taken the original characters name, purely for name recognition. I'm a fan of the show about the Timelord who travels through space and time and helps people. ts what's been the situation for 50 years, and its about as established as you can get. Anything else isn't the real character, its just PC people ruining something so they can feel good about how "diverse" they are, at the expense of the character.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I'm going in everyone, wish me luck!

He could have. Moore changed Starbuck. What's your point?

My point is, people would have rightly freaked out.

People did freak out. Before an single episode was aired. And then... it was all quiet. (except for the truly crazy.) Most everyone I know, loves the nuStarbuck (with the exception of some episodes in season four... "WE'RE GOING THE WRONG WAAAAA!")

But, basically, people freaked at the idea, and then saw the execution... and there was silence.

That's my point.

Some characters are meant to be guys. Not everyone can be rule 63'd successfully (in fact, i'd argue 99% can't be), no matter how much you want every character to be a woman, apparently.

Sure, some characters are meant to be guys. Some are meant to be women.

Appeal to tradition all you want, but, it's a pretty weak argument, especially with a character that changes shape.

Why shouldn't people like the characters they're attached to? What is the point of people liking characters, if they just can get thrown away whenever someone decides they need more diversity?

You keep saying this. Give me a percentage, how much of the Doctor's character is his gender? Because the Doctor has a lot of different personalities, characteristics, that keeps getting thrown out... So...?

In that case, there should be no franchises. Just random names that are attached to new characters whenever a company needs to satisfy a new demographic quota.

Why do you have such a hostility towards diversity? I'm serious.

The whole concept of a fictional character being anything more than a one shot would get thrown away, just so they can use the name for something completely different every time By that logic, I can't wait to see Jason Statham as Dan, Prince of Themyscira in the next DC movie reboot, and Sigorney Weaver as Black Panther. If any character should be something different because character consistency is now evil and the only point of fictional characters is to reuse names, then its only fair that everyone can be anyone

Sigh. Again, you're just lashing out. The Doctor is certainly a unique character, in that he/she LITERALLY changes his body.

Now, there was a storyline where Thor was a frog. Would you freak out? He's no longer an alien from another planet, but a frog. Is that throwing the character out?

Sigh. I have a feeling you just really really hate the idea of an shape shifting alien not always being male.

When they've been a male for 50/over 1100 years, then yes, I hate the idea :tech man:

He has been cast as a white male actor, yes, for 50 years. I wonder if times have changed since the 1960s.... hm....

Again, an appeal to tradition.

What about a black man, could a black man play the Doctor? He's always been white.... wouldn't THAT be throwing out the character by your logic?

DC Comics Batwoman was one of my favorite characters before DC fired the writers and said she was never allowed to get married. I stopped reading her book after that, but I've still liked the character since she appeared in the old 52 weekly series years ago. I'd personally love a movie with the character, but that is actually with her, and she's definitely not a female version of Bruce Wayne

Sure. That would be great. What if Terrance Howard played Bruce Wayne? For 75 years he's been a white guy. Would that be throwing out the character? In this day and age, there are plenty of very wealthy African Americans, no reason why they couldn't be gunned down and have their son avenge their deaths.

There are differences between people and characters of different genders. People keep using The Corsair to justify a female Doctor, but that Timelord apparently switched genders between almost every regeneration, it seemed pretty fluid from what I read on the Doctor who wiki. The Doctor, on the other hand, has never shown the slightest hint that he'd ever regenerate into a woman. Since the character hasn't done it in over 1100 years and a whole set of regenerations, in universe you can probably say he's pretty well set on his gender.

Just because it hasn't happened before, it can't happen now?

No, I just hate diversity for its own sake.

Why? Take a moment, serious, ask yourself, why do you hate the idea of diversity. And for those on the other side of it, its not "for it's own sake."

I get attached to characters, and I don't see why established characters need to be changed.

Even one that changes like every 3 to 4 years?

When you do that, they are no longer the same characters. When I read a Superman comic, I want to read about Clark Kent. You're basically saying no one should like fictional characters, because the characters should never be the same, and what they are should be dictated by demographics, and screw anyone who is a fan of a fictional character.

Skin color and gender are the major characteristics of those characters?

To be frank, I'm not suggesting that suddenly Clark Kent should be black. I'm challenging you on your logic and ideas of what character is and can be.

I specifically said I'd give a female Doctor a chance, but it wouldn't be the same character.

Why not? Why is Tom Baker the same as McCoy the same as Smith, but not Maggie Smith? Why?

It would basically be the end of the Doctor Who franchise that's been around for 50+ years. She wouldn't be the Doctor, even if she steals the name.

Why not? Be specific.

Could it be good? Possibly, depending on who they cast.

Isn't that true of any male actor?

It wouldn't be Doctor Who, though. There is a reason that the only two times I know of it really being brought up was in a goofy (although entertaining) comedy sketch, and a horrible Audio story. Its just not Doctor Who. Hopefully, the people in charge will keep acting like TV people usually do, not willing to screw up their franchise by doing something so extreme and unneeded.

You keep repeating, but you don't say why. And really, having a shape changing alien change into a woman is extreme?

What about Elba playing Heimdal? Hated him? If not, why not? Why would you hate a woman--and this little tantrum pretty much shows that you would hate a woman playing the Doctor, and not a black man playing an alien who is a Norse God?

Oh, yes, because Elba played a female Heimdal....wait a second, I think that guy was a dude Seriously, I don't know where this came from.

I brought it up...and, forgive me, I thought it was pretty obvious, because there was a tremendous outcry from his casting. "That character has always been white, how could he be played by a black actor!" It's your argument. Not in gender, but, in race. But, it's your argument. Why is race different than gender? Why is changing the race of a character ok, but not the gender?

I never said I wouldn't want the Doctor played by a black actor. It was fine with heimdall, although being an obscure, unestablished character probably helped. The comic Heimdall is cool, but not established enough for different casting to be a problem. If the Doctor can be a white british guy, he can be any other race (or nationality, I'd be fine with an american Doctor). The only thing I think needs to stay around between regenerations is his gender, besides that I'd say anything goes.

Why is race changing ok, but not gender? Again, for a shape changing alien, whose race can change gender and not even be humanoid?

Now that doesn't go for every character, I'd put race with gender when it comes to what generally makes the core of a character, but The Doctor is an alien.

So, it's not how a character behaves, the actions they takes, the desires they might have, the fears, it's what they look like? That's the core of a character? Really? That's the core of a character?

His gender, like every single Timelord we've seen or heard of not named The Corsair, should stay consistent, but the race doesn't matter, and I'd say that even if River Song hadn't proven that a timelord's race can change by regeneration.

Bully for you!

So, the Doctor is popular because he has a penis? Because he's been played by male actors? That's it? That's the big reason?

So the Doctor is hated because he has a penis?

Nice try. But, clearly, the Doctor isn't hated. You were the one presenting the idea that one of the core reasons he's popular is that he's male. I'm challenging you on that silly notion.

Or is it because british girls have no one to look up to, so they're currently rioting so that the character that's been male for 50 years should get gender swapped?

There's a riot going on!? Cool. Oh. There's not. Hyperbole. I know you're scared of change, but, it's not bad. It really isn't. And, yeah, maybe girls should get someone to look up to who isn't just the Doctor's companion.

Or is it just some PC police fans who somehow get all bent out of shape with keeping characters the same, because they don't get character consistency or the fact that people like characters the way they are?

I'm sorry, I don't know where you live, but, there aren't PC Police. They aren't a real thing. I am, again, try to challenge you on your position. That maybe you should reexamine why you are so concerned and frightened, yep, I said it, of a little diversity. That maybe it's time to grow up and share your toys.

And again, you keep saying, you like the characters they way they are... THE DOCTOR CHANGES EVERY FEW... eh, fuck it...

What is so wrong with liking a character, and not wanting to see him change for absolutely no reason? What happened to being a fan of something? When I like a character, I like them for what they are, not what the PC police want to use their name for.

How about this for a reason: A woman auditions and she's fucking fantastic. She's great. Isn't that a good reason? But, she wouldn't have the chance to play a shape changing alien because some fans are stuck in the 1960s.

 

[Sindatur]

Boomer wants to know why Starbuck gets all the comparisons. Boomer not only changed from Male to female, she also changed from Black to Asian, as well as from Human to Skin Job

Slight diversion to on topic: 5 more hours, until I get to see how awesome Capaldi is. I'm very glad I have remained mostly Spoiler Free, looking forward to this greatly.

OK, sorry for the on-topic interruption, carry on where you were

 

[Professor Zoom]

Boomer wants to know why Starbuck gets all the comparisons. Boomer not only changed from Male to female, she also changed from Black to Asian, as well as from Human to Skin Job

Another fine example. You want to know why I forgot to include her? I couldn't remember her name. And I was to lazy to look it up.

 

[kirk55555]

Why do you have such a hostility towards diversity? I'm serious.

I have hostility toward unneeded change. When I like a character, I want to keep getting stories with them, and the version that I am a fan of.

What about a black man, could a black man play the Doctor? He's always been white.... wouldn't THAT be throwing out the character by your logic?

Sure. That would be great. What if Terrance Howard played Bruce Wayne? For 75 years he's been a white guy. Would that be throwing out the character? In this day and age, there are plenty of very wealthy African Americans, no reason why they couldn't be gunned down and have their son avenge their deaths.

Well, I want all the characters I like to stay like they are in the versions I like, so I would want Bruce Wayne to stay as he's been for 70 freaking years. So, no, I wouldn't want Terrance Howard to play him. Just like I don't want Elijah Wood to play Black Panther or Angelina Jolee to play Storm.

Why? Take a moment, serious, ask yourself, why do you hate the idea of diversity. And for those on the other side of it, its not "for it's own sake."

Why can't I just enjoy the characters I've been reading/watching/hearing stories about for years? I will always, ALWAYS side with the well established character traits, unless the character is not well established or there is a very good character reason. The Doctor has no reason to switch gender, in fact basically no character does.

I love a lot of diverse characters. To use the superhero example again, I'd say at least half of my favorite heroes are female heroes, and I like a lot of different characters. Heck, for a specific example I like Cassandra Cain (Batgirl/Black Bat) more than I like Batman. I just don't support changing characters I enjoy because someone wants the name recognition on a new character.

Skin color and gender are the major characteristics of those characters?

Yes.

To be frank, I'm not suggesting that suddenly Clark Kent should be black. I'm challenging you on your logic and ideas of what character is and can be.

Its simple, if a character I like is black, or white, or a guy, or a woman, etc., I never support changing them. I became a fan of them because of what they are, and I have no desire to see them changed.

Why not? Why is Tom Baker the same as McCoy the same as Smith, but not Maggie Smith? Why?

Because Tom baker wouldn't have been allowed to play Professor McGonagal. Because the character of The Doctor was intended to be a guy long before NuWho established gender swapping Timelords (and don't give me any c%&p about it being the sixties, the 9th Doctor was also a guy in 2005, so obviously they decided a guy fit the role even when they could have cast a woman without the admittedly prejudiced attitudes of the old days).

You keep repeating, but you don't say why. And really, having a shape changing alien change into a woman is extreme?

How is it in any way similar? Male and female characters are different characters. Wonder Woman and Superman have differences connected to their gender. same with, say, Storm and Cyclops. Pretending that every character is gender neutral is stupid.

I brought it up...and, forgive me, I thought it was pretty obvious, because there was a tremendous outcry from his casting. "That character has always been white, how could he be played by a black actor!" It's your argument. Not in gender, but, in race. But, it's your argument. Why is race different than gender? Why is changing the race of a character ok, but not the gender?

Because the color of The Doctor's skin doesn't matter. He's regenerated into many different people, who while all white were very different physically.

Why is race changing ok, but not gender? Again, for a shape changing alien, whose race can change gender and not even be humanoid?

Well, I don't recall them saying a Timelord can be a nonhumanoid, and I imagine that regeneration has to have some limits. I doubt that a Timelord could become a nonhumanoid, they probably have to stay at least somewhat similar to the stock Timelord form, especially since they always keep timelord biology on the inside. We've already established that a Timelord can change gender, but for the Doctor it would change the character completely.

So, it's not how a character behaves, the actions they takes, the desires they might have, the fears, it's what they look like? That's the core of a character? Really? That's the core of a character?

A character is everything. The things you mentioned are important, and I consider their gender to be as important. Like I keep saying, I like characters because of the way they were when I connected with them. The Doctor has many faces, but is a male character, that's how he's been and that's the character I like. Same with superheroes. If they change from the form I connected with, either physically or personality/history wise, they aren't the characters I like anymore, they're random people with the same names. In that case, I have no reason to like them, they are new characters who should have had new identities, but don't because the creators wanted to use the name to bring people in.

There's a riot going on!? Cool. Oh. There's not. Hyperbole. I know you're scared of change, but, it's not bad. It really isn't. And, yeah, maybe girls should get someone to look up to who isn't just the Doctor's companion.

And they can't get that without removing the Doctor's penis because?

How about this for a reason: A woman auditions and she's fucking fantastic. She's great. Isn't that a good reason? But, she wouldn't have the chance to play a shape changing alien because some fans are stuck in the 1960s.

That's idiotic and ignores what I've said. A guy wouldn't go audition for Wonder Woman, because its not a male role. A guy would not audition for the Invisible Woman, because its a female role. Roles can be separated by gender and not be some kind of plot to keep any gender down.

 

[Cutter John]

Why not just do an alternate universe female Doctor story for one episode?

Ask all the actresses out there who'd welcome the same chance to play the role as their male counterparts, and all the mothers out there who'd like their daughters to have a hero who represents them rather than just a sidekick. One episode is hardly enough, not for an institution spanning generations. And equality requires more than a token gesture from the entitled.

Though it would be a good way to test the waters, and see how viable/acceptable the idea would be.

 

[Christopher]

Why not one incarnation instead of one episode, though? Like I said, any actor is only going to be the Doctor for a few years at most. And if, by chance, a given performer were unpopular as the Doctor, they could be let go after a season. (Although that's never actually happened -- Colin Baker was the only Doctor ever fired from the role, and that was because he was unpopular with the head guy at the BBC rather than with audiences.) Doing it for just an episode would be a gimmick, and far too tentative to be really worthwhile.

 

[Professor Zoom]

That's idiotic and ignores what I've said. A guy wouldn't go audition for Wonder Woman, because its not a male role. A guy would not audition for the Invisible Woman, because its a female role. Roles can be separated by gender and not be some kind of plot to keep any gender down.

Believe me, I'm not ignoring anything that you say.

When Wonder Woman or the Invisible Woman are shape changing aliens, who can change their gender, you might be onto something.

Until then: all I see is an appeal to tradition. And that's not a great argument.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, I want all the characters I like to stay like they are in the versions I like, so I would want Bruce Wayne to stay as he's been for 70 freaking years. So, no, I wouldn't want Terrance Howard to play him. Just like I don't want Elijah Wood to play Black Panther or Angelina Jolee to play Storm.

Bad examples, the Panther and Storm are from Africa and their origins tie into being Black Africans. The Panther more so than Storm. Bruce Wayne's origin doesn't really have a racial component.

 

[Christopher]

Bruce Wayne's origin doesn't really have a racial component.

Well, arguably it does, because Bruce is supposed to come from old money, and the first African-American billionaires have only come along in the past few decades. So a nonwhite Batman would need some aspects of his backstory changed, say, have Thomas Wayne be a self-made business success rather than the inheritor of a generations-old fortune.

Then again, the idea that the Waynes are old money is itself something that's accreted on over time; I don't think it was originally the case. So if it was changed before, it could be changed again.

And just to clarify, I'm someone who's always been okay with the notion of a black Batman. Back in the '90s, when I fantasized about creating a new Batman TV series, I couldn't think of a more ideal candidate for Batman than Michael Dorn.