Your postmortem thoughts on DISCO

[Dar70]

Well much of the issues I had with the show have been mentioned, Klingon Redesign, that nonsensical turbolift interior (snw short trek unfortunately used it as well) retcons etc.

But anyhow I finally had a season of Discovery I thoroughly enjoyed. Season 5 I liked every episode. That was a first. Season 4 was ok and the first three season I just did not like all that much. Pike or no Pike it just did not feel like Star Trek to me.

But season 5 FINALLY a season I really enjoyed.

The show for me was not all bad. Many of the characters unfortunately were never fully fleshed. Most of the bridge crew were just never explored all that much.

Favorite characters for me.....Stamets, Culber and Book. The Stamets/Culber relationship was very well done for Treks first ever same sex (main cast) relationship. Nicely done by the writers. Both characters also had great moments in season 5.

Book while I wasn't too crazy about him when he first appeared. Really grew on me especially with season 4 and his story arc. After that he became a favorite.

So anyhow, while not my favorite Trek and still (sorry) as a whole on the bottom of my list. It ended out on a high note and that is a good thing indeed.

 

[FederationHistorian]

It’s been weeks since the finale and I still have not bothered to watch it, or the second half of Discovery. As I had stopped watching after “Mirrors”.

Yes, I’ve seen the highlights and know about the reveals and what happened and what the final scene of Disco. But I don’t care to watch.

I’ve never not watched the finale of a Trek show. And I’ve never not wanted to watch a finale of a Star Trek show before.

Yet, that’s where I am at with this show. It might seem unfair to give the show a postmortem without seeing the last few episodes I did not see. But I just don’t feel compelled to watch.

And I’m not picking on DIS, as there are other shows where I’ve just stopped watching because I just feel it’s a waste of time to continue watching them. Due to the show being too formulaic, or too predicable, or its lost its edge, or it focuses on characters I just don’t find interesting.

I feel very much in the same position my father was with the Kelvin films – he watched the first two films, then never bothered watching Beyond.

I feel that in many ways, Discovery was the anti-Sopranos. On The Sopranos, the character were generally not good people and it was generally a nihilist show, but the writing was compelling enough to make you tune in to watch the next episode. And on The Sopranos, everyone got developed, not just a couple of characters.

While Disco, despite the characters being generally good people representing an optimistic future, the writing was weak or poor, and was not compelling enough to make me tune in to the next episode. Any viewership was driven by a need to be a completionist of Star Trek content, not because it was necessary good. Though S3 and S4, despite some frustrating writing, were good in their own right.

The show had many, many flaws. The middle deckers got the shaft too much and were never fleshed out in a meaningful way. The same could be said for the 32nd century in general, never fleshed out in a meaningful way. And the handling of the Emerald Chain in particular, was, as a poster stated above, amateurish. The show relied on needing a socially awkward main character too much, first with Tilly, then with Adira. Stamets was prickly and grouchy until he was neutered and no longer had a character. Burnham only started being written well when a) she ended up on the 32nd century and b) she became a captain. The best character on this show for a long while was Mirror Georgiou, who ate Saru’s people for a snack. It was set in the prime universe instead of the Kelvinverse, thereby limiting the show to the confines of canon until it made a jump to the far future to avoid such limitations.

Ironically, the original concept of the show could have worked if Burnham was simply the captain of her friends group (i.e. the middle deckers that got ignored from the outset) while still remaining first officer under someone like Lorca or Cornwell, while going through therapy with Culber. And that’s the show for five seasons, all in the 23rd century. But I do not think the writers were talented enough to pull of something like that. If they were, the jump to the 32nd century would not have been necessary.

Honestly, I do not know how likely it is I will watch Discovery again. And while I'm sure it will go through a phase where its reputation will be rehabbed like what had happened with ENT, I do not know if this show will age as well. I think the worst aspect of the show will overshadow the good parts.

 

[Frontis]

I can understand you, DISCO is the only Star Trek show I stopped watching.

 

[fireproof78]

It's tough the first time.

The second is easier.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I wish we'd got the anthology series instead. I wish Fuller could have realised his vision. I think we would have had a better show...

But who knows?

As it is, then it is what it is. A mess, no more and no less.

But messes can hold as much interest for me as masterpieces.

 

[Discovery McDiscoveryFace]

Random thought. After Adira went swimming in the symbiont caves and got re-memoried, at any point in the script was there any reference to the Trill hosts' memories. Or, other than Gray, did the fact that they had a symbiont on board just get completely forgotten. ??

 

[James Cole]

It’s been weeks since the finale and I still have not bothered to watch it, or the second half of Discovery. As I had stopped watching after “Mirrors”.

FWIW coming from a NuTrek hater, 5x05 was really really bad with the L'ak and Mol background, but 5x06 and 5x07 are both reasonably good and watchable. If you made it through the end of season 2, season 3, and even season 4, you could be missing a small uptick.

 

[PCz911]

I mean, look at the 2023-2024 Nielsen ratings. Outside of Football, the biggest since series (Tracker) had 10.8 million viewers. Doesn't sound that bad, right? But look at 18-49. The biggest show then (Survivor) had only 1.4 million views.

To put this in perspective, at TNG's peak in 1993, it had 11.5 million views. It wasn't even in the top 30 then. Way, way more people used to watch TV.

The scary thing for broadcast TV is there's no sign of the trends bottoming out Despite networks having lost something like 80%+ of 18-49 viewers over the last decade, they're still falling.

The median age of viewers for the top five broadcast networks is now close to 65 - and keeps rising. People aren't aging into watching broadcast TV the way they age into, say crossword puzzles or gardening. They are staying cord cutters even as they enter middle age. I'm 45 and haven't owned a TV hooked up to broadcast or cable since I was in college.

At current rates, broadcast TV is going to basically implode in another 10-20 years, with cable not looking much better. This is why CBS tried to get into the streaming game. Because the only alternative is basically setting themselves up as a content shop for Netflix and other streamers, which is a pale shadow of what they used to be. However, depending upon what happens with the sale of Paramount, that might be their fate.

TV is never going to be what it once was for a ton of reasons - not just due to the rise of Netflix. I remember around 20 years ago reading a study that concluded that all leisure activities taken on a computer (gaming, surfing the web, chatting with friends, etc.) directly cut into what was once called "TV time" and that the amount of time someone spent online was directly and negatively correlated with how much TV they watched. So, some sort of large-scale implosion of television was pretty much inevitable.

Great analysis backed up with data. Thank you

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

FWIW coming from a NuTrek hater, 5x05 was really really bad with the L'ak and Mol background, but 5x06 and 5x07 are both reasonably good and watchable. If you made it through the end of season 2, season 3, and even season 4, you could be missing a small uptick.

Yeah, for me Mirrors was one of the weakest episodes and it's followed by two of the strongest. Seems like the majority of the internet disagrees with me on this, but those guys are always disagreeing about something.

 

[BillJ]

Brilliant group of actors, let down by pretty much everything else in the show.

 

[Sigma101]

My verdict on the show that it was slightly better than Star Trek: Enterprise but barely. I also stopped watching both shoes early in season 2 of each because I lost all hope either would be good. I did come back to Enterprise in the middle of Season 3, season 3 episode 17 Azati Prime had a thrilling battle that was pretty good, and with reset expectations knowing it was going to be crap far as character stuff. That also had a very lack luster ending.

Discovery is very similar, lackluster Trek but with an even more confused sense of what it's audience is. Is it a plot based narrative looking for a larger audience or are they going for the traditional Star Trek fanbase. Not doing either well and satisfying nobody but those desperate for new content. That said, some of the character stuff was well done in season 3 and 4, character moments here and there, like the episode with Burnham's mom on Vulcan, and L'ak and Moll's relationship was convincing, too bad they dropped the ball big time with it leading to a completely lackluster final episode. Some creative scifi like the mirror universe torture chambers, and the non-standard forms of communication in the season 3 final episode which was neat and true to real Star Trek. Overall didn't need to exist, just new content, that has been consumed and forgotten like Enterprise.

 

[Jedman67]

It's a nice show, gets better with each season.
Could have used better character development on the secondary cast, but no one is perfect.

 

[fireproof78]

Not doing either well and satisfying nobody but those desperate for new content

Well...nice to discover I'm desperate this way...

It's a nice show, gets better with each season.
Could have used better character development on the secondary cast, but no one is perfect.

I think they could have added more to Detmer but that wasn't their purpose. At this point, the retrospective becomes "Less Burnham" and that seems to be the biggest albatross around the neck for Discovery is that people do not like Burnham but want to like it because its Star Trek.

Overall didn't need to exist

Name a show that needs to exist?

 

[Jedman67]

Name a show that needs to exist?

Stargate SG1

I think they could have added more to Detmer but that wasn't their purpose. At this point, the retrospective becomes "Less Burnham" and that seems to be the biggest albatross around the neck for Discovery is that people do not like Burnham but want to like it because its Star Trek.

Burnham is the series lead, just like Captain Picard.
I wouldn't have minded a little less Burnham and a little more Detmer, Owashekun, Bryce etc.

 

[James Cole]

Today I watched 508-510, and have now seen every episode of the series proper at least once.

My final season rankings from best to worst:
Season 1
Season 2.0 (Harberts & Berg as showrunners)
Season 5
Season 2.5 (Kurtzman as showrunner)
Season 3
Season 4

DISCOVERY never missed an opportunity to miss and opportunity. For every frequent recalibration (save for season 5) it zagged instead of zigging, managing to create far more problems than were "solved". And for season 5, I only even enjoyed three episodes. Moll just shouldn't have been the season's final bad. I would have killed her and had La'ak forced to assume his birthright in order to attempt to bring back his wife. Instead you have a very Present Day YA character taking over... a faction of the Breen? Just no.

Casting was a very mixed bag in seasons 3-5, although I liked Vance, "Kovich", T'Rina, Rayner, and La'ak. I could see myself rewatching a few of their scenes on YouTube at least.

Otherwise, I just can't see wanting to revisit the series post early season 2. The beginning of the show at least plays like one long super deleted scene from an aborted Star Trek project that went off the rails but is at least interesting out of universe.

 

[Citiprime]

DISCOVERY never missed an opportunity to miss and opportunity. For every frequent recalibration (save for season 5) it zagged instead of zigging, managing to create far more problems than were "solved". And for season 5, I only even enjoyed three episodes. Moll just shouldn't have been the season's final bad. I would have killed her and had La'ak forced to assume his birthright in order to attempt to bring back his wife. Instead you have a very Present Day YA character taking over... a faction of the Breen? Just no.

The change in motivation for Moll and L'ak makes absolutely no sense. It almost felt like that whomever wrote the early episodes of season 5 didn't collaborate with the people who did the latter half of the season.

First, they're presented as these Bonnie and Clyde types that need the Progenitor tech to barter away a blood bounty on L'ak's head. But then once the Breen come front and center, L'ak becomes this important "scion" bargaining chip the Breen are fighting over in terms of needing his support. If L'ak had that much influence, why do they need the Progenitor tech in the first place? Why couldn't he have used his influence and barter his support for a specific primarch for both his' and Moll's protection?

Also, the resolution of Moll's story in the finale is just absolutely dreadful. She's kinda forgotten about after she fails the Progenitor puzzle game, and then they try to exposition her away off-screen by getting Kovich to say "oh, don't worry, we'll probably make her into a Federation operative."

 

[James Cole]

The change in motivation for Moll and L'ak makes absolutely no sense. It almost felt like that whomever wrote the early episodes of season 5 didn't collaborate with the people who did the latter half of the season.

One thing I noticed in the credits is they had new executive producers listed for the first three episodes of the season, who turned out to be the former showrunners of SALVATION, a series Kurtzman exec produced for CBS that had Santiago Cabrera (STP's Rios) playing an Elon Musk type figure and an impending asteroid impact or something. They didn't actually write anything, so must have left fairly early on. Then at the tail end of the season they had someone come on (M Raven Metzgher) who worked on Kurtzman's SLEEPY HOLLOW and ran the second season of a Marvel Netflix show after the guy that tanked DEXTER did the first (it's either LUKE CAGE or IRON FIST). Aside from that, many of the episodes were written by people whose only pro experience was as PAs and writing assistants on DISCOVERY.

And yeah, I think far more holes would become apparent watching week to week. A binge where you already know the mystery boxes at least helps blur everything together in quick succession plot wise.

 

[Lord Garth]

Today I watched 508-510, and have now seen every episode of the series proper at least once.

My final season rankings from best to worst:
Season 1
Season 2.0 (Harberts & Berg as showrunners)
Season 5
Season 2.5 (Kurtzman as showrunner)
Season 3
Season 4

I landed on:

Season 1
Season 4
Season 5
Season 2
Season 3

So, the only difference there is Season 4 and the first five episodes of Season 2.

 

[Mr J]

My take on the whole is that DISCO was an experimental show - a show that wanted to try different things with ST. It had the burden - after the franchise being several years off the air - of being the show that genuinely had to front the question "what should Star Trek be TODAY?". A show that wanted to modernise the franchise, attract a new audience whilst retaining the old fans, and was willing to try and fail in doing so - but do it with heart and a positive ethos throughout. They wanted to focus on how a Captain becomes a captain - that was the throughline. They wanted spectacle, and big-screen production on TV. I genuinely appreciated that one thing they consistently tried to do was portray LGBTQIA+ matters positively and modernise how a ST crew is portrayed.

In many ways - love it or hate it, Disco was bold. It asked questions of what the franchise should be for a modern audience. It did what many fans criticised Enterprise for failing to do and made an effort to modernise what ST is. It looked at shows like nuBSG/Lost and saw this grittier darker tone and went with that, combined with the Abram's movie sense of gloss and production, and combined it with a lot of heart and character emotion and modern discourse around found-family, threads relevant in the world today. Later, they saw that the darkness needed light - and they course corrected to bring in more of a traditional ST sense of optimism and togetherness. In doing that, some felt it lost its edge - moving too much towards the hugging and lovey-ness and the like over putting the characters in truly dramatic and genuinely emotional situations that deserved those moments.

Some (many) of those experiments failed - they resulted in a show that was patchy, shifting from one thing to the next to find itself, ever-shifting tones in response to feedback (not to mention a string of creative differences and producer changes), but despite that there was a commitment evident throughout to try things and to represent the world of today within the ST universe. The focus on Burnham's journey was to the disservice of other cast members. If you didn't like Burnham, you were destined to not like the show as it was very much a one-character focus from the outset.

Despite being a big swing (a horribly overused term most often associated with SNW's producers - but DISCO actually took more of them than SNW has), for me, the 32nd Century didn't work as well as it should have. Changing the entire setting and premise of the show was a good example of a bold, huge choice previous ST shows wouldn't have made - and it should have genuinely been an enthralling and new period. Despite a few fun technical upgrades, the 32nd century potential wasn't lived up to - it became the Apple-designed version of the ST universe rather than embracing the huge changes in both society and tech we should have seen. The fish out of water aspects of the Disco crew should have been more significant - I was expecting Scotty in "Relics" turned up 10 fold. I felt we should have seen more of this crew having a hard time finding their relevance again. The universe of the 32nd century should have been totally alien to the crew - but in practice, the whizzy tech and gloss didn't materially change the stories from other periods we've already seen, and our 900 years out of date crew just slotted right in.

The best parts of what the ST franchise is today owe DISCO a lot in terms of being the pioneer - the one that came out asking the hard questions as to what fans and new audiences alike wanted to see from a ST show today (and to its credit - not being afraid to rile old-school fans in doing so). SNW in many ways was in direct response to what some fans saw as DISCO and PIC S1 getting "wrong" (though as an aside - I think SNW is very far from getting it 100% "right" as in many ways I think its a far safer bet of a show than DISCO wanted to be). The worst parts of the franchise today can also be traced back to DISCO. Certainly the other shows would not have existed had DISCO not been as successful as it clearly was in terms of viewership. The great experiment has had a bumpy ride - but just like how the Excelsior wasn't forgotten after it's failed transwarp drive, I don't think DISCO will be either. I think its going to carry on having a presence in the ST universe for quite some time, even if it isn't the focus any more.

In short - I enjoyed the ride, and appreciated that DISCO was a show that genuinely (and enthusiastically) wanted to carve its own path in the franchise. It was a pioneer, and it was experimental - and I'm always far more forgiving of a show that unashamedly tries things and fails than plays it safe by caving to certain sub-sets of the fan base cookie-cutter style.

 

[James Cole]

So, the only difference there is Season 4 and the first five episodes of Season 2.

I guess I'm counting "The Sound of Thunder" as Harberts & Berg since they're credited as the showrunners on it. First six does have a higher average than the first five.

I knew going in the mystery boxes for seasons 3, 4, and 5. Season 4 did stick the landing the best of any of this show's seasons, but the editing and pacing was absolutely languid. That season also had dark and muddy cinematography. If edited down, it'd probably be better than season 3, which did have good editing, pacing (minus the Trill episode!), and cinematography for the most part.