"...Your last so-called World War."

[MAGolding]

Well, there are two issues going on. One is what did they intend before TNG came around? Well honestly, probably not a whole lot. It was established pretty clearly I thought that the Eugenics Wars takes place in 1992 to 1996, that was in the dialogue. And in "Space Seed" I think the intent was that it was a 'World War', though they never said 3rd World War or World War III. I imagine the writers were intending it on being WWIII, but as it really wasn't important to the story they wanted to tell they probably just didn't give it much thought beyond what it added to the story.

I do think in "Bread and Circuses" we can say there were at least 3 World Wars. Now I happen to believe that there were only 3 World Wars because why would Spock stop there? I mean he could say the 321 million who died in your 4 World Wars (I made that number up just for the sake of argument). Now the dialogue maybe is a bit clumsy, with him saying your first 3 World Wars. It could also be that he was inferring things on Earth weren't as settled as they were later stated to be in later shows (I mean, honestly we don't know a whole lot about Earth from the original series) and maybe he thought there was a possibility of a 4th occurring in the future.

The 2nd issue is what is known now. Nowadays I believe they were separate conflicts. The Eugenics Wars, then WWIII which we have some more specific information. And the fact that novels have written them as separate conflicts lends credence to that idea. Like I said, they can't conflict with canon so if it was otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to write them as such. Now that doesn't stop a future show from rewriting Star Trek history---shows can do that----but books cannot. So at this point, since they are noted to be separate conflicts in Trek history---the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and WWIII in the mid 21st century, that's how I take them now.

As far as Cox's novels go, even he noted I believe in his acknowledgements (or maybe later comments) that it wasn't perfect. He took up the challenge of trying to reconcile "Trek" history with real world history. But it was never going to be perfect since the 1990s had already occurred and there were really no Eugenics Wars. It's more of a how it could have happened, and that's the spirit I took it in. I always enjoy books that try to reconcile plot holes in canon. How do we make a square peg fit in a round hole. It's not the only thing I enjoy about books, but it is one of the things.

Let us remember what is actually said.

The Eugenics Wars did not happen from 1992 to 1996. The only statement about the era of the Eugenics Wars is:

SPOCK: Hull surface is pitted with meteor scars. However, scanners make out a name. SS Botany Bay.
KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

This indicates that probably the entire "last world war"/Eugenics Wars happened during a longer or shorter part of the mid-1990s. The mid 1990s would be roughly the period from 1993.333 to 1966.666 - in the calendar used in "Space Seed".

So the Eugenics Wars should have lasted for minutes, or hours, or days, or weeks, or months, or years, and were probably entirely within the period of 1993.333 to 1996.666 SS ("Space Seed" calendar). But it is possible that the earliest parts of the Eugenics Wars were before 1993.333 SS and/or the latest parts of the Eugenics Wars were after 1996.666 SS.

What did happen from 1992 to 1996 was the reign of Khan "Midnightian" Singh, as I like to call him.

KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.

More than a quarter of Earth should mean either more than a quarter of Earth's entire surface, land and sea, or else over a quarter of the entire surface area of Earth, or over a quarter of the total human population of Earth. It is not specified how Khan acquired rule over more than one of the nations that existed in our timeline when the script was written. It isn't stated whether Khan gained power in one huge country or many small countries in the Star Trek universe, whether violently or peacefully, legally or illegally.

KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He'll spend the rest of his days in our time. It's only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.
KIRK: Interesting, if true. They created a group of Alexanders, Napoleons.

So over forty countries were seized by young supermen in coups in 1993. More than a quarter of the Earth (Khan's realm) plus more than forty nations should add up to a large proportion of the total Earth ruled by those supermen.

And apparently they eventually began to attack each other.

KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.

After Khan was identified:

MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.

So apparently Khan didn't attack any other countries during his rule, and so became, by unspecified methods, the ruler of a vast preexisting country or empire in 1992 instead of conquering a bunch of countries over several years until 1992. Khan was attacked by other powers, maybe countries ruled by other supermen, or countries not ruled by supermen, or by rebels, or by a combination, and was the last of the tyrants to be overthrown.

At the dinner:

KHAN: Adventure, Captain. Adventure. There was little else left on Earth.
SPOCK: There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort.

So apparently there was a struggle against the supermen dictators as well as struggles among them.

SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.
KIRK: Interesting, if true. They created a group of Alexanders, Napoleons.
SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts.
SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

So the superior ambition of the supermen is the reason why some of them attacked Khan. And note that when the wars were over the surviving normal humans apparently believed that all of the augments were dead. Every super man, super woman, and super child among them. This indicates that the war to end tyranny was also a war to exterminate all tyrants and potential tyrants.

In TNG "A Matter of Time" Picard said:

PICARD: Yes, Professor, I know. What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh? Every first year philosophy student have been asked that question ever since the earliest wormholes were discovered. But this is not a class in temporal logic. It's not theoretical, it's not hypothetical, it's real. Surely you see that?

So Picard compares Khan to Hitler. I doubt if Kirk & would have remembered good things about Khan if they thought Khan was as evil as Hitler. So apparently the opinions about Khan have changed in about 90 years between TOS and TNG, and something which Khan did is now considered in the era of TNG to be much more evil than Kirk & Co. considered it to be in the era of TOS.

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

This sounds like ICBMs with nuclear warheads were used and that entire countries were devastated. Possibly entire tiny countries like Antiqua and Barbuda, or Andorra, or Singapore, or maybe entire vast countries like the USA, Brazil, Russia, China, India, etc. Total casualties could have been millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or billions.

And I can imagine that possibly Khan detected missiles heading toward his realm - Khantopia, or Khanistan, or whatever it was called - and pushed the button to retaliate with missiles of his own. And perhaps Picard, unlike Kirk & Co., can't forgive Khan for doing so.

There is evidence about which wars were on the list of Earth's world wars which Spock studied (possibly in some Why Humans are Inferior class on Vulcan):

In "City on the Edge of Forever":

SPOCK: This is how history went after McCoy changed it. Here, in the late 1930s. A growing pacifist movement whose influence delayed the United States' entry into the Second World War. While peace negotiations dragged on, Germany had time to complete its heavy-water experiments.
KIRK: Germany. Fascism. Hitler. They won the Second World War.

So the Second World War in Kirk's history books is similar to the one in our history. But possibly different:

SPOCK: This is how history went after McCoy changed it. Here, in the late 1930s. A growing pacifist movement whose influence delayed the United States' entry into the Second World War. While peace negotiations dragged on, Germany had time to complete its heavy-water experiments.
KIRK: Germany. Fascism. Hitler. They won the Second World War.
SPOCK: Because all this lets them develop the A-bomb first. There's no mistake, Captain. Let me run it again. Edith Keeler. Founder of the peace movement.
KIRK: But she was right. Peace was the way.
SPOCK: She was right, but at the wrong time. With the A-bomb, and with their V2 rockets to carry them, Germany captured the world.
KIRK: No.
SPOCK: And all this because McCoy came back and somehow kept her from dying in a street accident as she was meant to. We must stop him, Jim.

This suggests to me that in the alternate universe of Star Trek some evil time traveler or alien went to Germany in the early 1930s and convinced the Nazi leadership before they even came to rule Germany (and possibly separately convinced the leaders of the German armed forces) that atomic weapons carried by shorter range missiles and even ICBMS were necessary for Germany to win the next war, probably using a lot of future evidence and/or alien technology to convince them. Or maybe using some sort of mind control.

So the Germans atomic bomb and missile programs would then work together to build atomic bombs that would fit on their rockets, and rockets powerful enough to carry the bombs to distant continents, unlike as in our alternate universe. And the time traveling or alien person or persons who interfered with Earth history in the alternate universe of Star Trek must have changed the way the Nazis did things.

In Patterns of Force":

SPOCK: Quite correct. For the last few years, the real power has been Melakon.
KIRK: Gill. Gill, why did you abandon your mission? Why did you interfere with this culture?
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?
SPOCK: Perhaps Gill felt that such a state, run benignly, could accomplish its efficiency without sadism.
KIRK: Why, Gill? Why?
GILL: Worked. At first it worked. Then Melakon began take over. Used the. Gave me the drug.

So in the alternate universe of Star Trek Nazi Germany is known by historians to have been a highly efficient state, unlike in our alternate universe where Nazi Germany is known by historians to have been very inefficient, which helped prevent a Nazi victory in Would war II in our timeline.

In "Bread and Circuses" a partial list of world wars from Earth history is given:

SPOCK: I said I understood it, Doctor. I find the checks and balances of this civilisation quite illuminating.
MCCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

The First World War in this list should be roughly equivalent to our World War I, the Second World War in this list should be roughly equivalent to our World War II (it was identified with it by Kirk in "City on the Edge of Forever"), and the Third World War in this list would be sometime after World War II and it is entirely unspecified who fought against who where and why.

Note that Spock says that only "six" million died in their version of World War I, "only" eleven million died in their version of World War II, and "only" thirty seven million died in their version of World War III.

Note that about nine to eleven million military personnel died in our World War I with about eight million civilians, thus making our deaths about 1.5, 1.8333, 2.8333, or 3.1666 times as many as in the alternate universe of Star Trek. So I deduce the World War I in the alternate universe of Star Trek was much smaller than in our universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Note that about fifty to fifty six million people, military and civilian, were killed in our World War II with about nineteen to twenty eight million more deaths from war-related famine and disease for a total of about sixty nine to eighty four million, or else fifty to fifty five million civilian deaths plus twenty one to twenty five million military deaths for a total of about seventy one to eighty million deaths. These figures make our deaths about 6.2727, 6.4545, 7.2727, or 7.6363 times as many as the "mere" eleven million in the alternate universe of Star Trek. So I deduce the World War II in the alternate universe of Star Trek was much smaller than in our universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

And it seems to me that in the 1960s when "Bread and Circuses" was written, people feared that World War III might cause many times as many as the "mere" thirty seven million deaths in the World War III in the alternate universe of Star Trek, and possibly happened earlier than the late 1960s, possibly so early that there were far fewer weapons of mass destruction available and far fewer deaths than would have happened in the 1960s.

Was the World War III of "Bread and Circuses" Earth's last world war? Spock did mention "your first three world wars", strongly implying there has been at least one more by their time. And in "Space Seed":

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

One possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, but those are the populations of relatively small countries, so the total fatalities are "only" thirty seven million. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's last world war.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) Star Trek's Fourth World War happens some time after the Third World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's last world war.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) One or more other world wars happen after Star Trek's Third World War and before Star Trek's "Latest" World War. Nothing is known about them.
5?) Star Trek's "Latest" World War, numbered as the Fifth World War or higher, happens some time after the earlier World Wars, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's "latest" world war.

These are possibilities suggested by data in in TOS.

Continued:in post number 42:

 

[MAGolding]

Post number 41 continued.

But in Star Trek: First Contact the Enterprise follows a Borg ship back in time to Earth:

PICARD: Report.
RIKER: Shields are down. Long-range sensors are off-line. Main power's holding
DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.

And a minute later:

PICARD: A missile complex? ...The date? Mister Data, I need to know the exact date.
DATA: April fourth, two thousand sixty-three.
PICARD: April fourth?
RIKER: The day before First Contact.
DATA: Precisely.

So the date of this Third World war would have been about 2053 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact, or 2053 FC.

When the Borg ship fires at the missile complex:

there is a bright orbiting light which suddenly fires two photon bolts towards the settlement)
LILY: It's the ECON.
COCHRANE: After all these years?

And later:

PICARD: My name is Jean-Luc Picard...
LILY: Down! Who are you with? What faction?
PICARD: I'm not a member of the Eastern Coalition. Listen.

This additional data suggests a different list of Earth's world wars:

One possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, but those are the populations of relatively small countries, so the total deaths are only thirty seven million. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's last world war.
4) TNG's Third World War happens about 2053 in the calendar used in First Contact. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed. This is called only the Third World War because some of the previous world wars are no longer named world wars or one or more conflicts previously considered separate world wars are now considered part of a single world war.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) Star Trek's Fourth World War happens some time after the Third World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's last world war.
5) TNG's Third World War happens about 2053 in the calendar used in First Contact. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed. This is called only the Third World War because some of the previous world wars are no longer named world wars or one or more conflicts previously considered separate world wars are now considered part of a single world war.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) One or more other world wars happen after Star Trek's Third World War and before Star Trek's "Latest" World War. Nothing is known about them.
5?) Star Trek's "Latest" World War, numbered as the Fifth World War or higher, happens some time after the earlier World Wars, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and is Earth's "latest" world war.
6?) TNG's Third World War happens about 2053 in the calendar used in Star Trek: First Contact. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed. This is called only the Third World War because some of the previous world wars are no longer named world wars or one or more conflicts previously considered separate world wars are now considered part of a single world war.

The problem with these last three possibilities is that they have the Third World War of first contact happen after the Eugenics Wars which are supposedly Earth's last world war. Could it be that Earth had several world wars so devastating and bloody that the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact, with about six hundred million killed, was not considered to be big enough to be a world war in the list used in the era of TOS?

But if the same calendar is used in "Space Seed" and Star Trek: First Contact, the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact has to be about 60 years after the Eugenics Wars. Therefore I prefer to believe that two different calendars are used in "Space Seed" and Star Trek: First Contact, with the year one in the "Space Seed" calendar being about 60 years after the year one in the Star Trek: First Contact calendar, and the Eugenics Wars being the same conflict as the Third World War in Star Trek: First Contact.

One possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, but those are the populations of relatively small countries, so the total deaths are only thirty seven million. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and about 2053 in the First Contact calendar, and is Earth's last world war. This is also the same conflict as TNG's Third World War. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed.

This list has the problem that It's Third World War has both thirty seven million deaths and six hundred million deaths, so one source says that about 16 times as many people were killed as another source says. That seems very contradictory.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) Star Trek's Fourth World War happens some time after the Third World War, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars in the era of TOS, but is renamed the Third World war in the era of TNG. Whole populations are bombed out of existence, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and also in the 2050s of the First Contact calendar, and is Earth's last world war. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed. In the era of TNG this is called only the Third World War because some of the previous world wars are no longer named world wars or one or more conflicts previously considered separate world wars are now considered part of a single world war.

Another possibility is:

1) Star Trek's First World War happens close to the time of our First World War, but is much smaller.
2) Star Trek's Second World War happens close to the time of our Second World War, but is much smaller.
3) Star Trek's Third World War happens some time after the Second World War, - the who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost totally unknown. The total fatalities are thirty seven million.
4) One or more other world wars happen after Star Trek's Third World War and before Star Trek's "Latest" World War. Nothing is known about them.
5?) Star Trek's "Latest" World War, numbered as the Fifth World War or higher in the era of TOS, happens some time after the earlier World Wars, and is also known as the Eugenics Wars in the era of TOS, but is renamed the Third World war in the era of TNG. Whole populations are bombed out of existence in the Eugenics Wars, so the total fatalities may be millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions. This happens in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar, and also in the 2050s of the First Contact calendar, and is Earth's last world war. One of the factions involved is the Eastern Coalition, and apparently the USA is attacked during the war. Six hundred million are killed. In the era of TNG this is called only the Third World War because some of the previous world wars are no longer named world wars or one or more conflicts previously considered separate world wars are now considered part of a single world war.

The Third World War in Star Trek: First Contact ended about ten years before 2063, and thus about 2053 in the First Contact calendar. It might have begun in about 2053 FC or possibly earlier since it is not known how long it lasted. So Cochrane's first warp test flight and then the First Contact with aliens happens in 2063, about ten years after the end of the war, and probes using warp drive and manned ships using warp drive begin to be built and used some time later, an unspecified number of months, years, or decades later.

Presumably the "Eugenics wars in "Space Seed" ended when the last of the tyrants, Khan, was overthrown in 1996 in the "Space Seed" calendar - year 1996 SS. And another important event is dated in "Space Seed":

MARLA: Captain, it's a sleeper ship.
KIRK: Suspended animation.
MARLA: I've seen old photographs of this. Necessary because of the time involved in space travel until about the year 2018. It took years just to travel from one planet to another.

The much faster form of space travel about the year 2018 SS could be something before warp drive, but the chronology indicates that it must be the adoption of warp drive space ships.

The year 2018 SS was 22 years after 1996 SS. If 1996 SS is equivalent to about 2053 FC, 2018 SS would be equivalent to about 2075 FC, which would be twelve years after First Contact. If Marla McGivers was speaking very vaguely like many Humans, "about the year 2018" could mean within about five years of 2018, and thus sometime between 2013 FC and 2023 FC, which would correspond to about 2070 FC to 2080 FC, seven to seventeen yeas after First Contact.

It is possible that the first warp drive probes would be sent in 2013 SS/2070 FC and that the first manned warp ships would be launched about 2018 SS/2080 FC.

It is also a possibility that the Eugenics Wars and the Third World war of Star Trek: First Contact were considered part of a single world war in the era of TOS but were split up into two separate world wars in the era of TNG. So in the era of TNG an unspecified war was listed as the First World War, the Eugenics Wars ending about 1996 SS were listed as the Second World War, and the war in First Contact, considered to be part of the same world war as the Eugenics wars in the era of TOS, is considered a separate, Third, World War in the era of TNG.

So if there are a few years between the first and second parts of the last world war in TOS, the first warp drive ships could be launched a few years earlier than about 2070 FC.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and calculations about Earth's three or more world wars in Star Trek.

 

[johnnybear]

All this effort because a few writers in the TNG era didn't bother to do the same! I've always felt the newer writers of the later series disregarded a lot of TOS and thought of it as cheesy! So took what they viewed as the 'good stuff' and then created their own version of future history but failed to care that fans like us would be pulling our hair out trying to reconcile both works into the same chronology!
JB

 

[Timo]

Well, it really is TOS itself already not giving a shit about this: the contradictions regarding the world wars all begin there already. Was there a boss fight in the sixties or not? "Omega Glory" and "Bread and Circuses" contradict each other there. What happened? "Bread" even contradicts reality there. "Space Seed" has its own incompatible ideas, and nobody in the writing team cares. But why should they, when it's all fiction anyway?

It's perhaps more excusable with Vulcan being conquered and never conquered at the same time: there the fiction smacks itself in the face on a matter that does not matter, since we know squat about Vulcan history to begin with. Earth history we know and care about. But the writers of TOS did not, and individually each and every one of them was entitled to that, because, well, fiction. Put together is how they achieved this "not giving a shit" status, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

So Picard compares Khan to Hitler. I doubt if Kirk & would have remembered good things about Khan if they thought Khan was as evil as Hitler. So apparently the opinions about Khan have changed in about 90 years between TOS and TNG, and something which Khan did is now considered in the era of TNG to be much more evil than Kirk & Co. considered it to be in the era of TOS.

One big thing that happened between "Space Seed" and TNG is TWOK. It's very possible Picard was considering Khan's final actions before he died as well.

And just mentioning the two, Hitler and Khan, in the same sentence doesn't mean they are the same kind of evil. I might use Napoleon and Mussolini in the same sentence about rulers but it doesn't necessarily mean I equate them in other ways.

I complement you on your detailed analysis. But I think @Timo probably has it more nailed down. The original series writers probably put little if any thought into it. The writer of "Bread and Circuses" probably barely considered "Space Seed"--if they considered it at all. Before TNG came out I just assumed they were one in the same. Spock said the Eugenics Wars was the last of your so called world wars and WWIII was mentioned more explicity in "Bread and Circuses" (Spock's error in casualties not withstanding---in the real world probably the writer screwed up).

After TNG they were split up. It's hard to know the intent early on of what they were doing. But nowadays, at least for me, in Star Trek history they are now separate conflicts. We're trying to seek perfection in the canon and continuity. But there isn't none. Spock's line in Space Seed is simply contradicted. It happens.

As I said I am a continuity junkie. But at the same time that goes for the broad strokes. I can't try to reconcile every last detail in my mind because that level of continuity is just not possible. You'd drive yourself crazy.

 

[Timo]

...Leave the fine print to me, as I'm already way beyond redemption.

If all else fails, blame it on fallibility. Of the characters, that is. And just like LaForge is always cracking incomprehensibly bad jokes (so we can argue some of his supposedly serious if problematic utterings should count as such, too), Spock is the alien with alien views of human behavior and history (so we can argue he accidentally or intentionally uses terminology different from the accepted human one), while McCoy is the sarcastic but insightful adversary to him in debates (so he's entitled to witty hyperbole or nitpicking) and Kirk is the balancing factor (so even if he nods to some of the seeming nonsense of the other two, we need not take that as agreement with said).

"Space Seed" is fish in a barrel in that sense, as the relevant dialogue is all repartée where a hero makes a statement and immediately gets corrected or contradicted, to no ill effect or ill will. That Spock says "your" is already cue enough that he's up to his antics, and following this with "so-called" really puts the cherry on top of what is to come.

The rest is far from problem-free, as "Bread" gives us both a reason to believe in more than three WWs and a reason to believe that WWIII happened in the sixties, contradicting everything from "Omega Glory" to "Assignment: Earth" to every spinoff to come. But "Bread" is not trivial to dismiss. Spock is baiting McCoy all right, but he risks being contradicted on his points if those are the slightest bit off. He's not that suicidal when it comes to dueling with McCoy!

The saving grace there is that he has an audience. Claudius is listening to every word, armed with the knowledge of who and what the Vulcans are. Spock doesn't stop being honest to a fault there, either, but seemingly undermines the whole mission by blurting out the Prime Directive obstacle to extracting Merikus. Yet Claudius is there, already in possession of all the facts. So Spock can instead be assumed to be playing games, sucking up to the boss while reinforcing the (very false) image of Vulcans as honest and impartial. And McCoy might well realize this, as he's awfully quiet about Spock's borderline-traitorious words, right until it's his turn to reinforce the "Vulcans don't lie" lie.

But how could Merrick not know about WWIV or absence thereof? Why make such a bold lie when a lesser one would suffice (even if Claudius ultimately doesn't take the bait and start trusting Spock as a tool to be used against Kirk)? It is highly unlikely that the list of World Wars got new entries after the day Merrick last left spaceport. Even the old Columbia was fast enough for non-generational flight, and TOS and TAS and ST:FC all say humans stopped fighting humans in the 21st century already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

A lot of long posts...short of it for me, the word "era" changes everything. What era? How long? Was it the era of the last World War (plus Eugenic Wars) in 1993-1996 that lasts 3-4 years or "era" that lasts 60 years from 1993-2053? Either way, "era" gives us time to make anything happen.

 

[XCV330]

Let us remember what is actually said.

The Eugenics Wars did not happen from 1992 to 1996. :

Yes they did. Sometime after Voyager VI before the mars landings.

TLDR: Yes they did.

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[Maurice]

Post number 41 continued...

That is the biggest WALL OF TEXT I've ever seen on this board.






Not reading it.

 

[johnnybear]

Spock's comments in The Omega Glory state that the earth avoided the same conflict that the Yangs and Kohms did fight, but his chat with McCoy in the cell about the three world wars in Bread And Circuses must be construed to be the Eugenics wars and that would have been obvious to all fans of TOS but for the writers and producers of TNG and the other Trek series later alterations!
JB

 

[Henoch]

Spock's comments in The Omega Glory state that the earth avoided the same conflict that the Yangs and Kohms did fight

I thought it was only biological warfare. (No nukes, Mass bombings, etc.)

 

[Timo]

I guess it depends on the wording again.

Spock: "Kohms? ...Communists? The parallel is almost too close, Captain. It would mean they fought the war your Earth avoided, and in this case, the Asiatics won and took over this planet.

The parallel primarily hinges on "Asiatics" being combatants. Does it additionally hinge on the type of weapons used? A war involving "Asiatics" and "Communists" was certainly fought on Earth - dozens, in fact. And in several, "Yankees" were directly pitted against said, despite these being proxy wars. None of these involved the use of weapons of mass destruction (if we discount carpet bombings and AK-47 proliferation as such), though, meaning it might be a good idea to give significance to that aspect.

Does it further matter what type of WMD would be used? Perhaps, if this interpretation helps us out. But only as a sub-clause to this being a West vs. East global confrontation: combat gases and, to a lesser degree, bioweapons have been used extensively in smaller conflicts ITRW, and the Trek universe need not be different there. Unless, again, we want to interpret it as being that.

Remarkably, though, when Spock comments on the avoiding of this particular type of war, he already knows that the biological aspect to it was not particularly relevant. Unlike Tracey originally thought, it had nothing to do with the observed longevity. Spock earlier on did not hesitate to think the confrontation might have been nuclear; apparently, the telltales won't linger. So he shouldn't have a basis for declaring the local WWIII distinct from Earth's that way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

I thought it was only biological warfare. (No nukes, Mass bombings, etc.)

You could be right there, but then we didn't see anything outside of the village did we!
JB

 

[Timo]

One might assume Spock scanned the planet, at least cursorily. Nevertheless, he was ready to speculate:

Spock:"Captain Tracey mentioned there was once a considerable civilisation here. The only reasonable explanation would be a war. Nuclear devastation or a bacteriological holocaust."

What signs of nuclear devastation would remain is one issue. Another is that "bacteriological holocaust" alone would be unlikely to utterly erase cities or road networks, even if it removed all population for thousands of years. Those ought to stand out in a cursory orbital scan already. Yet it takes Tracey and his quoting of old rumors to make Spock believe there might have been urban civilization on Omega previously. So, a bit of help from "kinetic" weapons like nukes would be a welcome addition. Or rods-of-God or whatever - the Omegans might have been more advanced than the 1960s level back when they self-annihilated.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The mid 1990s would be roughly the period from 1993.333 to 1966.666 - in the calendar used in "Space Seed".

Yeah, as soon as you start in on the years with decimal points to three places, that's when I tune out & start skimming.

I doubt if Kirk & would have remembered good things about Khan if they thought Khan was as evil as Hitler.

I don't know if calling someone "the best of the tyrants, and the most dangerous" can exactly be called remembering good things about somebody.

And hell, even people who hate Hitler (i.e. anyone rational) say that he could be a mesmerizing public speaker.

So I deduce the World War I in the alternate universe of Star Trek was much smaller than in our universe.

See, this is where I can't go along. I'm fine with believing that known Earth history was different in the Trek universe beyond the 1960s, but back in the 1910s? That's just a bridge too far for me.

Well, it really is TOS itself already not giving a shit about this: the contradictions regarding the world wars all begin there already.

Yup. It was a less continuity-oriented time. No one expected transcriptions of episodes being checked against transcriptions of other episodes, or even multiple episodes being watched in quick succession the way we commonly do today.

(Spock's error in casualties not withstanding---in the real world probably the writer screwed up).

Yeah, I'm sure.

But history is also a fluid thing. We likely have a greater understanding of the true casualty numbers of those wars today than we did in the mid-60s. But yeah, most likely either the writer made the numbers up on the spot or just checked a bad encyclopedia.

If all else fails, blame it on fallibility.

I think that works great except for characters like Spock and Data, where being precise to a fault is one of their defining character traits.

That is the biggest WALL OF TEXT I've ever seen on this board. Not reading it.

 

[Damian]

That is the biggest WALL OF TEXT I've ever seen on this board.






Not reading it.

Ha-ha. True, he put waaaaaayyy to much thought into it.

It's an interesting debate but I just can't put that much thought into it. I certainly don't think the episode writers did back during the original series.

Honestly, even in "Bread and Circuses" the line about 'your first 3 World Wars' was relatively minor, except it revealed there was a 3rd World War at some point. I honestly don't think the writers gave any consideration to any further wars beyond that.

As an aside I did see a pretty amusing Facebook meme "USA--back to back World War champs"---I have to admit I never really thought about it in those terms but I guess it's true to an extent

 

[UnknownSample]

I'd say that if the dates of WWIII got shifted by 30 to 60 years, that's definitely a retcon.

I think retconning would be an intentional act on the part of writers or producers. This was automatic. Reality did it. We got through the 90s without a Eugenics War, therefore it didn't happen in the 90s. Really, everything's fine as long as we stay a bit blurry about the numbers.
----------
And really, the very first post settled this issue. I don't know why it's still being debated.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think retconning would be an intentional act on the part of writers or producers. This was automatic. Reality did it. We got through the 90s without a Eugenics War, therefore it didn't happen in the 90s.

The writers and producers still had to make a conscious choice to move it.