"...Your last so-called World War."

[Marsden]

Yeah, that "Shall I go on?" at the end of Spock's speech is certainly intriguing. What would he have gone on to, I wonder?

There have been dozens of terrible wars Spock could have gone on with, but it bothers me that his figures are so bad for WWI and WWII.

Also, WWs I and II are sometimes considered 6 and 7 when counting all of the previous globally spanning wars such as the Seven Years War/French & Indian War for example.

It just makes me wonder why TNG didn't call theirs WW4. Did they get confused counting from 1 to 4 and forgot something? Maybe numbers are different in the future, that might explain Ceti Alpha 5/6.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

There have been dozens of terrible wars Spock could have gone on with, but it bothers me that his figures are so bad for WWI and WWII.

I posted a possible explanation for that above.

Also, WWs I and II are sometimes considered 6 and 7 when counting all of the previous globally spanning wars such as the Seven Years War/French & Indian War for example.

I've never heard that. Sounds needlessly confusing.

It just makes me wonder why TNG didn't call theirs WW4. Did they get confused counting from 1 to 4 and forgot something?

I'm sure that it was a conscious retcon and not a mistake.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The time of Awakening.

The planet turned into a desert, and most of the population fleeing into space to build a new fort.

WW1.

Playing in the mud, walking into machine gun fire. waiting a month and then doing the same thing again, claiming losing and reclaiming the same 40 feet ad infinitum.

WW2

Millions of rifles. tanks in the deserts zoom about at 55 mph shooting at each other, and two nukes.

The Eugenics War.

40 superman vs half the planet.

WW3.

Thousands of Nukes for 12 minutes. Pause.

 

[johnnybear]

I never liked the way that the Vulcans were painted in ENT! Not that they were our friends but more that humanity resented them for taking over the space technology as it were and trying to confine humans to earth! But then I never liked ENT anyways and I don't count it as proper Trek!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

I think our problem lies with the writers and producers of TNG not liking the future as set down by TOS and trying to change it! But by doing that we end up with a future history which doesn't make any sense and us having to retcon it by thinking of interference from the future or even lying, misinformed conniving Vulcans!!!
JB

 

[Henoch]

Yeah, that "Shall I go on?" at the end of Spock's speech is certainly intriguing. What would he have gone on to, I wonder?

We need to look at Spock's speech as a DEBATE technique against McCoy. First, what is Spock's side in this debate?

MERIK: There's been no war here for over four hundred years, Jim. Could, let's say, your land of that same era make that same boast? I think you can see why they don't want to have their stability contaminated by dangerous ideas of other ways and other places.
SPOCK: Interesting, and given a conservative empire, quite understandable.
MCCOY: Are you out of your head?
SPOCK: I said I understood it, Doctor. I find the checks and balances of this civilisation quite illuminating.

In a debate, you first hit on your most convincing examples to make your point. Then the "Shall I go on?" is another technique to imply that you have many more examples to make your point. If Spock was tasked to "go on", since he already used his best examples, now he can only use a list of lesser examples, but their shear number will further support your point. Remember, Spock is a master debater (please no masturbator jokes) like his father.

 

[johnnybear]

Perhaps the conflict mentioned was simply a brief nuclear attack upon many nations and it ended as quickly as it started after retaliation by the US and other countries? So therefore not a war as such?
JB

 

[Marsden]

Perhaps WW III lasted 20 minutes and ended when the US President broke a beer bottle on the German Chancellor's face.

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[UnknownSample]

There was no need to quote any more than Spock's first line. It's settled by that. They were definitely the same thing. I hadn't thought so at first, but hearing that quote again a few years ago told me. A vote shouldn't be necessary.

Nothing was retconned. The Next Gen holocaust and TOS's are the same one. The dates are irrelevant. The Eugenics Wars/WW3 can no longer be in the 1990s, so dates get shifted. If they're making Trek around 2060, the dates for these same events will have to be shifted yet again, unless there is a WW3.

 

[MAGolding]

Perhaps the conflict mentioned was simply a brief nuclear attack upon many nations and it ended as quickly as it started after retaliation by the US and other countries? So therefore not a war as such?
JB

Perhaps you might explain which conflict you meant by "the conflict mentioned". That might help others figure out what you mean and whether they agree with you.

Any conflict that is not classified as terrorism, but is fought between two governments, and which results in even a single city being devastated by a nuclear weapon and at least tens of thousands dead, definitely counts as a war.

The European war from 1756 to 1763, with Austria in one coalition and Prussia in the other, was called the Seven Years' War. When Prussia (and allies) defeated Austria (and allies) much quicker in the Austro-Prussian war in 1866, the Prussians often called it the Seven Weeks' War. The Third Arab-Israeli War in 1967 is called the Six-Day War.

And I remember some old science fiction stories where World War Three with ICBMs is described with grim humor as "the Seven Hours' War", "the Seven Minute War", etc. And the writers and readers certainly thought that a conflict that caused at least as much horror and suffering, death and destruction, as World War Two certainly counted as a war, even if it only lasted for the few minutes it took for the ICBMs to be launched and reach their targets.

And if hypothetical alien attackers surround Earth with a fleet of hundreds of space battleships at a distance of a million miles, and if all the space battleships simultaneously fire their energy weapons for seven seconds, and every square inch of Earth's surface is turned into molten lava miles deep during those seven seconds, any off planet Human observers of that event will certainly think of it as "The Seven Seconds' War".

There is no logical minimum duration for a war. A war is an armed conflict between groups of people. So long as the casualties exceed whatever low minimum amount is necessary to qualify as a war, the war can be arbitrarily short.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Nothing was retconned. The Next Gen holocaust and TOS's are the same one. The dates are irrelevant. The Eugenics Wars/WW3 can no longer be in the 1990s, so dates get shifted.

I'd say that if the dates of WWIII got shifted by 30 to 60 years, that's definitely a retcon.

 

[Timo]

Also consider that when observing the 1960s-lookalike pseudo-Rome in "Bread and Circuses", Spock says this civilization has already skipped the carnage of the first three world wars. So basically WWIII is shifted by a full century if it only takes place in the 2050s!

What we have there, then, is WWI in 1914-18, with imagery thereof seen in "City on the Edge" to confirm the looks; WWII in its usual place, with dialogue from "City" to confirm this; WWIII before the sixties, as per Spock above; WWIV in the nineties, this being the last of the lot as per Spock in "Seed"; and then WWIII again in 2053. (Or is that the "Third World War", which barely touched the First and Second Worlds?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

It's funny in a way. We Trekkies can argue about anything

First, what do we know. We know the Eugenics Wars occurred from 1992 to 1996....that was established in canon, in "Space Seed". Spock said it was the 'last of your so called World Wars'. Then in "Bread and Circuses" it is established that there were 3 World Wars. Spock may have gotten the casualty figures wrong (or maybe he was just using a certain statistic and was not being all inclusive) but he clearly said 1st World War, 2nd World War and 3rd World War. So we know there were 3 World Wars.

Based on that I would say before TNG came out that the intent was that World War III and the Eugenics Wars were the same thing (though honestly I don't think the writers were all that concerned about it--the writer of Breads and Circuses may not have even been thinking about Space Seed and the Eugenics Wars, but it happens to fit nonetheless)

Now by the time of TNG it became more clear that WWIII took place in the 21st century. From "Encounter of Farpoint" on I think that becomes pretty clear. And later on DS9 the Bell Riots took place in 2022 I believe and WWIII has not yet occurred, so we know WWIII is after 2022. Then First Contact tells us WWIII ended in 2053. So the war took place sometime between 2022 and ended firmly in 2053 (some sources cite 2026 as a starting date--but I don't think that's in canon so that can be malleable).

At the same time I think it's reasonably clear that the Eugenics Wars were not altered, and are there are some hints that it still took place in the 1990s in Star Trek history. I'm not sure how much thought they gave it in "Encounter at Farpoint" but the little information we get in canon seems to indicate WWIII was a different type of war from the Eugenics Wars. There is never any mention at that point of genetic superman being involved. And eventually later episodes of the various shows talks about the Eugenics Wars as a different conflict.

I do think now the intent is that they were wholly separate conflicts. Little clues in canon tells us that. Usually Star Trek doesn't retcon dates. It was stated that the Eugenics Wars took place from 1992 to 1996...later shows aren't going to touch that. They may not bring it up again and may refer to the Eugenics Wars loosely since we are well past 1996 now. But in Star Trek history they occurred.

And novels run with the idea they were separate conflicts. Novels are not canon of course....but they are based on canon sources. If the novels say they were separate conflicts then that is because that is what is believed to be what canon says. Otherwise they would not be able to say they were separate conflicts. Canon can conflict with novels....but novels can't conflict with canon.

Novels that touch on these two wars..."The Eugenics Wars" by Greg Cox I thought was an excellent look at how they could have taken place without common knowledge. I was impressed with how Cox was able to thread the needle there, using what little we knew about the conflict in canon with real world events. And it includes a significant role for Gary Seven as well as Khan, of course.

"Federation" is another that gives us some details about WWIII. I liked the idea of the Optimum Movement. Now the film "First Contact" does nullify elements of this novel, particularly when warp drive was developed in relation to the war (which stretched to the 2070s in the novel) and Cochrane's involvement, but the Optimum Movement and some of the players could still be consistent with what we know about the war and Colonel Green (who we learn in the Terra Prime episodes of Enterprise was spouting off about genetic purity--something the Optimum Movement was a proponent for as well). If you moved some of the dates and changed the role of Cochrane in the novel some of those elements could still work.

And the novelization of "First Contact" gives us some actual wartime information.

I'd love to see a novel writer maybe pick up on some of those threads and write a WWIII story (or even trilogy or something). Maybe use some of the background from Dayton Ward's novels that take place partially in the 21st century. Take some usable elements of "Federation" the "First Contact" novelization, Ward's books and maybe elements of "The Eugenics Wars" and finally tell us the 'real' story of WWIII.

 

[johnnybear]

Spock's lines about the three wars in Bread were pretty odd when you think back to Omega Glory where he contradicts himself by saying that the conflict here was avoided on your earth so he must have been referring to the Eugenics wars and the TNG writers sort of ignored the Supermen angle and gave their own! so is TOS in a temporal reality of it's own?
JB

 

[Henoch]

TOS historic vision on the past: 1. WWI; 2. WWII; 3. WWIII (also referred to as the Eugenics Wars); 4. Quick, limited nuclear exchange (EMP only?) with "punitive" follow up, so, not quite a World War.
TGN historic vision on the past: 1. WWI; 2. WWII; 3. the Eugenics Wars; 4. WWIII.
By TGN, the Eugenics Wars (note plural) got down rated from a World War to several regional wars, while the non-World War got renamed to WWIII. History is constantly being rewritten all the time. Easy-Peasy

 

[Timo]

It's funny in a way. We Trekkies can argue about anything

Well, let's see...

First, what do we know. We know the Eugenics Wars occurred from 1992 to 1996....that was established in canon, in "Space Seed". Spock said it was the 'last of your so called World Wars'.

Okay, so nope. Instead, he said the era in question was "the era of your last so-called World War". "The Eugenics Wars", as a response to that, could be many things:

1) World War = Eugenics Wars (but it's a mismatch, singular against plural)
2) The era is appropriate for both (sort of trivial)
3) Eugenics Wars is where McCoy homes in, as a specific smaller element of the Last World War era (the likeliest real-world reason for anybody to say such a thing)
4) It's forbidden to call them World Wars now, so McCoy gently corrects Spock, providing both the understanding nod and smile and the politically correct Newspeak name (this excuses the singular/plural mismatch, as Spock isn't mislabeling just the single conflict but the whole concept)

Then in "Bread and Circuses" it is established that there were 3 World Wars.

The opposite, basically, as the first three were only the first! (It would be sort of insanely odd for anybody to say "the first three" without there being a fourth at the very least.)

Based on that I would say before TNG came out that the intent was that World War III and the Eugenics Wars were the same thing (though honestly I don't think the writers were all that concerned about it--the writer of Breads and Circuses may not have even been thinking about Space Seed and the Eugenics Wars, but it happens to fit nonetheless)

Agreed that calling any of this "intent" is giving the writers (or continuity-minding rewriters and producers) way too much credit. It's just that we can keep on arguing even about the singular intent behind the "Space Seed" dialogue, it already being ambiguous enough.

At the same time I think it's reasonably clear that the Eugenics Wars were not altered, and are there are some hints that it still took place in the 1990s in Star Trek history.

Basically by the time of ENT, the writers were resigned to doing the fan thing and going both barrels for the fictional continuity of Trek, rather than trying to pretend Trek is our reality where nothing out of the ordinary is allowed to have happened before the airdate (no world wars, that is - secret visits by bug-eyed or big-eared aliens are fine).

DS9 writing may still have been ambivalent about when Khan ruled, so the "Dr Bashir, I Presume" reference to a "moved" date may be considered either an error or a deliberate re-dating choice. By the time of the ENT stories about the Augments, any reference to non-1990s would be a writing error, though.

"The Eugenics Wars" by Greg Cox I thought was an excellent look at how they could have taken place without common knowledge.

The problem sort of being that they had to have been extremely public even back in the day for there to exist this popular reaction of fear and disgust at "80 surviving Napoleons". Loving the treatise to bits otherwise, of course!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

Well, let's see...



Okay, so nope. Instead, he said the era in question was "the era of your last so-called World War". "The Eugenics Wars", as a response to that, could be many things:

1) World War = Eugenics Wars (but it's a mismatch, singular against plural)
2) The era is appropriate for both (sort of trivial)
3) Eugenics Wars is where McCoy homes in, as a specific smaller element of the Last World War era (the likeliest real-world reason for anybody to say such a thing)
4) It's forbidden to call them World Wars now, so McCoy gently corrects Spock, providing both the understanding nod and smile and the politically correct Newspeak name (this excuses the singular/plural mismatch, as Spock isn't mislabeling just the single conflict but the whole concept)



The opposite, basically, as the first three were only the first! (It would be sort of insanely odd for anybody to say "the first three" without there being a fourth at the very least.)



Agreed that calling any of this "intent" is giving the writers (or continuity-minding rewriters and producers) way too much credit. It's just that we can keep on arguing even about the singular intent behind the "Space Seed" dialogue, it already being ambiguous enough.



Basically by the time of ENT, the writers were resigned to doing the fan thing and going both barrels for the fictional continuity of Trek, rather than trying to pretend Trek is our reality where nothing out of the ordinary is allowed to have happened before the airdate (no world wars, that is - secret visits by bug-eyed or big-eared aliens are fine).

DS9 writing may still have been ambivalent about when Khan ruled, so the "Dr Bashir, I Presume" reference to a "moved" date may be considered either an error or a deliberate re-dating choice. By the time of the ENT stories about the Augments, any reference to non-1990s would be a writing error, though.



The problem sort of being that they had to have been extremely public even back in the day for there to exist this popular reaction of fear and disgust at "80 surviving Napoleons". Loving the treatise to bits otherwise, of course!

Timo Saloniemi

Well, there are two issues going on. One is what did they intend before TNG came around? Well honestly, probably not a whole lot. It was established pretty clearly I thought that the Eugenics Wars takes place in 1992 to 1996, that was in the dialogue. And in "Space Seed" I think the intent was that it was a 'World War', though they never said 3rd World War or World War III. I imagine the writers were intending it on being WWIII, but as it really wasn't important to the story they wanted to tell they probably just didn't give it much thought beyond what it added to the story.

I do think in "Bread and Circuses" we can say there were at least 3 World Wars. Now I happen to believe that there were only 3 World Wars because why would Spock stop there? I mean he could say the 321 million who died in your 4 World Wars (I made that number up just for the sake of argument). Now the dialogue maybe is a bit clumsy, with him saying your first 3 World Wars. It could also be that he was inferring things on Earth weren't as settled as they were later stated to be in later shows (I mean, honestly we don't know a whole lot about Earth from the original series) and maybe he thought there was a possibility of a 4th occurring in the future.

The 2nd issue is what is known now. Nowadays I believe they were separate conflicts. The Eugenics Wars, then WWIII which we have some more specific information. And the fact that novels have written them as separate conflicts lends credence to that idea. Like I said, they can't conflict with canon so if it was otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to write them as such. Now that doesn't stop a future show from rewriting Star Trek history---shows can do that----but books cannot. So at this point, since they are noted to be separate conflicts in Trek history---the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and WWIII in the mid 21st century, that's how I take them now.

As far as Cox's novels go, even he noted I believe in his acknowledgements (or maybe later comments) that it wasn't perfect. He took up the challenge of trying to reconcile "Trek" history with real world history. But it was never going to be perfect since the 1990s had already occurred and there were really no Eugenics Wars. It's more of a how it could have happened, and that's the spirit I took it in. I always enjoy books that try to reconcile plot holes in canon. How do we make a square peg fit in a round hole. It's not the only thing I enjoy about books, but it is one of the things.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

DS9 writing may still have been ambivalent about when Khan ruled, so the "Dr Bashir, I Presume" reference to a "moved" date may be considered either an error or a deliberate re-dating choice.

It was definitely an error. Ron Moore said it was.

 

[Marsden]

The 2nd issue is what is known now. Nowadays I believe they were separate conflicts. The Eugenics Wars, then WWIII which we have some more specific information. And the fact that novels have written them as separate conflicts lends credence to that idea. Like I said, they can't conflict with canon so if it was otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to write them as such. Now that doesn't stop a future show from rewriting Star Trek history---shows can do that----but books cannot. So at this point, since they are noted to be separate conflicts in Trek history---the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and WWIII in the mid 21st century, that's how I take them now.

If I cared about TNG and any of the other shows that came after TAS, I'd agree with you 100%.

As far as Cox's novels go, even he noted I believe in his acknowledgements (or maybe later comments) that it wasn't perfect. He took up the challenge of trying to reconcile "Trek" history with real world history. But it was never going to be perfect since the 1990s had already occurred and there were really no Eugenics Wars. It's more of a how it could have happened, and that's the spirit I took it in. I always enjoy books that try to reconcile plot holes in canon. How do we make a square peg fit in a round hole. It's not the only thing I enjoy about books, but it is one of the things.

No offense to Greg Cox or anyone else, but, IMO, trying to reconcile dates given in a story that have gone past because events in that story didn't happen is idiotic, revisionist . There are so many works that I like or even love, like Star Trek, that gave future at the time dates for stuff, so what? Anybody who thinks their fixing something is.... Well, I disagree. BTW, I'm not saying that's what Greg did, but other shows and fans have done it. Gene probably is the source of some of it, he was distancing himself from Star Trek when he was heavily involved with TNG as being "the good version" so I wouldn't doubt he changed things just because of possible royalties to the writers from the original.

 

[Damian]

If I cared about TNG and any of the other shows that came after TAS, I'd agree with you 100%.



No offense to Greg Cox or anyone else, but, IMO, trying to reconcile dates given in a story that have gone past because events in that story didn't happen is idiotic, revisionist . There are so many works that I like or even love, like Star Trek, that gave future at the time dates for stuff, so what? Anybody who thinks their fixing something is.... Well, I disagree. BTW, I'm not saying that's what Greg did, but other shows and fans have done it. Gene probably is the source of some of it, he was distancing himself from Star Trek when he was heavily involved with TNG as being "the good version" so I wouldn't doubt he changed things just because of possible royalties to the writers from the original.

I'm the exact opposite. One thing I loved about novels (not the only thing, and not every novel does it) is when they reconcile inconsistencies. We have two things that don't fit, is there some way to make them fit in a way that makes sense? Now Greg Cox, and Christopher Bennett, have noted themselves in other threads they don't do it because they want to fix something really. Both have noted it's more like a challenge. I'm sure Greg Cox looked at the Eugenics Wars that way. They obviously didn't happen. But could he write a book about how it 'could' have happened within real history. I actually liked that. I'm sure it took a lot of work. Now, like I said, it wasn't perfect. It couldn't be. But he did a pretty good job I thought.

As an aside, I highly recommend the 3rd book in that series, The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh...even if you didn't like the Eugenics Wars books (plus that one takes place in the future...you don't really need to read the first 2 books for that one). It depicts Khan's time on Ceti Alpha V between "Space Seed" and TWOK. Yes, he did explain some of the inconsistencies between the two stories (i.e. why his band of merry supermen looked like an 80's hair band when that's not how they appeared in "Space Seed"), but that wasn't the sole purpose. It was also an excellent story beyond that...the reconciling of the two stories is just a bonus. It also shows us Khan's decent into madness, and why he hated Kirk so much. It didn't happen overnight. If you are someone that liked TWOK I think you'd like this book. Hell, you might like it even if you didn't like TWOK just because it's a great story. But I digress.

But when I say 'fix' that is just my word for it. I think authors that take things like that on see it more as an intellectual 'challenge' then some need to fix something. They'll tell you themselves, it's a fictional world. It doesn't need to be 'fixed'. It's something they do because they like the challenge. I'm not sure if @Greg Cox or even @Christopher have anything to add but that's how I take their comments in the past.

Now me, I AM a continuity freak. It's one of the reasons I have a hard time with Discovery. I'd prefer a nice neat Star Trek universe--I mean, I'm not talking about every little detail, just the broad strokes...and production design is a pet peeve of mine as well.