Your impressions of Zephram Cochrane...the drunk?
- Thread starter Good Will Riker
- Start date
Wonderful, we had a nice post going on till the inevitable "Wah wah, all Trek should be exactly like TOS and never change or have different character dynamics or different character types" schmuck rears his head.
The TOS-TNG differences in Cochrane aren't the day/night things they're made out to be. And I'd rather they got an actor who acts well and does a good job even if he doesn't look like Corbett, then an actor that looks like Corbett but doesn't do a good job.
So they made Cochrane human, big whoop.
The TOS-TNG differences in Cochrane aren't the day/night things they're made out to be. And I'd rather they got an actor who acts well and does a good job even if he doesn't look like Corbett, then an actor that looks like Corbett but doesn't do a good job.
So they made Cochrane human, big whoop.
I think James Cromwell is a wonderful actor. He was just saddled with a poorly written part. The rebellious non-conformist outsider is merely another stereotype and not an example of great writing on Berman's part.
They just did the equivalent of handing him a turd suit and telling him to fart on que.
Who is "WE" and why is someone a "schmuck" just because they disagree with your view??
They just did the equivalent of handing him a turd suit and telling him to fart on que.
Who is "WE" and why is someone a "schmuck" just because they disagree with your view??
No where in his post did he insult anyone. If you don't like different views that are popular, that's fine. If you are tired of hearing similar personal opinions repeated, that's nice. You're entitled to feel that way. But please, don't bully posters and whine about it. Be civil and debate his argument. We were all getting along fine until you splashed your drink in Warped 9's face and made a scene.
And for the record, I feel Cochrane was protrayed very human in both TOS and First Contact. I'm more partial to Glenn Corbett's performance in "Metamorphosis" because his character wasn't played for laughs.
TOS's Cochrane came from Alpha Centauri, not Earth. As I have always understood it, humans did not develop warp drive but got it as a gift from the Alpha Centaurians. (I don't read the novels.)
How did they rationalize making Cochrane a human for "First Contact?"
That never made any sense to me but I suppose there is an answer out there somewhere.
How did they rationalize making Cochrane a human for "First Contact?"
That never made any sense to me but I suppose there is an answer out there somewhere.
Cochrane was explicitly stated to be human in "Metamorphosis". How did they rationalize that?
"They" didn't (either in TOS or in ST:FC). It was left as an exercise to the audience. One possibility was that Earth humans were already migrating to places like Alpha Centauri at the time aboard non-warp ships, and one of the settlers made this great discovery and then reported it back to his ancestral world. The other was that the discovery was made on Earth, and allowed the inventor to become "Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" by giving him the means to migrate there. The possibility has also been bandied about that some aliens gave Cochrane's ancestors a lift, creating a human settlement at Alpha Centauri (and possibly elsewhere) long before mankind even had spaceflight.
ST:FC seems to go by the middle theory, but there may be nuances to be worked out still.
Personally, I'd have liked to see how Tom Hanks would have pulled off this one. I can live with Cromwell, though. And I definitely like the drunkard take on the character - it's one of the truly interesting ideas of ST:FC from the Trekkie standpoint, apart perhaps from the concept of the Borg Queen (the rest being a standard action romp of little impact).
That would be all good and well, if Warped9's sole contribution to TrekBBS for the past year didn't consist of entering threads to declare "All opinions contrary to 'TOS is great' are wrong; spinoff shows and movies are wrong; Okuda is wrong; Paramount books are wrong". That's factually the only thing he has done to contribute to the fori of late. Talk about being negative...
Sure, that's a valid standpoint as such. But we could really do without it being explicated in a great number of threads, because we already know what Warped9 thinks of the issue. Any issue.
Timo Saloniemi
"They" didn't (either in TOS or in ST:FC). It was left as an exercise to the audience. One possibility was that Earth humans were already migrating to places like Alpha Centauri at the time aboard non-warp ships, and one of the settlers made this great discovery and then reported it back to his ancestral world. The other was that the discovery was made on Earth, and allowed the inventor to become "Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" by giving him the means to migrate there. The possibility has also been bandied about that some aliens gave Cochrane's ancestors a lift, creating a human settlement at Alpha Centauri (and possibly elsewhere) long before mankind even had spaceflight.
ST:FC seems to go by the middle theory, but there may be nuances to be worked out still.
Personally, I'd have liked to see how Tom Hanks would have pulled off this one. I can live with Cromwell, though. And I definitely like the drunkard take on the character - it's one of the truly interesting ideas of ST:FC from the Trekkie standpoint, apart perhaps from the concept of the Borg Queen (the rest being a standard action romp of little impact).
That would be all good and well, if Warped9's sole contribution to TrekBBS for the past year didn't consist of entering threads to declare "All opinions contrary to 'TOS is great' are wrong; spinoff shows and movies are wrong; Okuda is wrong; Paramount books are wrong". That's factually the only thing he has done to contribute to the fori of late. Talk about being negative...
Sure, that's a valid standpoint as such. But we could really do without it being explicated in a great number of threads, because we already know what Warped9 thinks of the issue. Any issue.
Timo Saloniemi
Where in my post did I say all Trek had to be like TOS? I said FC was a crappy film, and it is and not just because it is nothing like TOS. It's just bad. And I reiterate that FC's drunkard take on Cochrane was totally wrong and inconsistent with the character seen in "Metamorphosis."
But then the majority of contemporary Trek is often inconsistent with TOS and so FC has a lot of company. The distinction is that some contemporary Trek actually managed to be decent and even occasionally good. But FC certainly isn't one of those few works.
I don't spend much time here on TrekBBS, but I'm only familiar with Warped 9 as the guy who did a thread showing his skills in photoshop with a "What-If?" themed TOS Art Contest or something. I also remember him making two threads reviewing the TAS DVDs and Art Asylum's USS Enterprise. And if he does spout off passionate TOS-biased opinions in every other thread...so be it. This forum is the TOS section. I fail to see the problem.
Cromwell did a good acting job, given the material as it was written. Someone a little closer in looks and personality to the TOS Cochrane would have been better.
I prefer TOS Z.C.
TNG Z.C. was a lot more troubled and, well, human.
I respect actors and their work, Cromwell had a different take on the character, fair enough. It was different, but hey, its his job. He doesnt have to immitate his predecessor to make us all happy and jolly. It was Berman etc's choice to make him a drunk, cos theyre the Anti-Trek as far as im concerned.
This is like comparing James Bonds and Superman actors. Its all about interpretation. they are all different from the previous, we just have to deal with it, we cant change it.
But, there is always a but... Your free to think what you wish, if its not good as you thought it would be, ignore it, simple.
TNG Z.C. was a lot more troubled and, well, human.
I respect actors and their work, Cromwell had a different take on the character, fair enough. It was different, but hey, its his job. He doesnt have to immitate his predecessor to make us all happy and jolly. It was Berman etc's choice to make him a drunk, cos theyre the Anti-Trek as far as im concerned.
This is like comparing James Bonds and Superman actors. Its all about interpretation. they are all different from the previous, we just have to deal with it, we cant change it.
But, there is always a but... Your free to think what you wish, if its not good as you thought it would be, ignore it, simple.
I also prefer the ZC of the novel, Federation, which gelled well with metamorphosis.
The actor in First Contact is a great actor, and he did well with crappy material. That movie could have been so much better, but of course the fanchise was starting to really accelerate in its slide by that time.
The actor in First Contact is a great actor, and he did well with crappy material. That movie could have been so much better, but of course the fanchise was starting to really accelerate in its slide by that time.
I will say this about FC's version of Cochrane: at no point in the film did I ever get the idea that he was passionate about science or engineering--he seemed uninterested in his own breakthrough. A drunk? Why not? Fond of naked Tahitian girls? Why, sure! But to have him seem so disconnected from his own project? Perhaps Mr. Braga wrote a little too much of himself into the role.
I'm willing to forgive a l;ot, however, because Cromwell is one of the finest character actors alive.
I'm willing to forgive a l;ot, however, because Cromwell is one of the finest character actors alive.
Why should he be passionate over any of that? The world is a smoldering nuclear ruin, the dude just cared about making as much cash as he could so he'd live the best he could in that hellhole, or maybe just use it to get away from the mudball.
Realistic, given the greater context.
Realistic, given the greater context.
From "Metamorphosis" -
He discovered the space warp. If he was a pilot flying around the Solar System and happened upon one, yeah. That would be a kind of "discover". If he was an archeologist and uncovered alien instructions on how to build one, yeah. That'd do it. Even if he was an "Eleanor Arroway" from Sagan's Contact, discovering the means to interstellar travel embedded in pi... that'd fit the moniker.
But having him be the theoretical physicist that discovers the principles behind warp travel, the engineer that figures out how to apply that knowledge, and the pilot that flies the thing? Whoa. We might as well have had Wernher von Braun command Apollo 11. No... that doesn't quite descend to the depths of the FC conceit. Maybe have Einstein formulate the Theories of Relativity, build an A-Bomb AND fly the Enola Gay over Hiroshima. Yep. That's how bad it was.
This movie spit in the face of anybody with half a wit of sense about how science is done. It was worse than a comic depiction. Having him be a drunk? Shit. I couldn't have cared less. Having a concept that appears to have been written by drunks? That should have been on the poster outside the theatre warning anyone thinking of seeing the movie.
Warped9 wrote:
I'm with him. Send a couple of beers to us schmucks at the end of the bar.
He discovered the space warp. If he was a pilot flying around the Solar System and happened upon one, yeah. That would be a kind of "discover". If he was an archeologist and uncovered alien instructions on how to build one, yeah. That'd do it. Even if he was an "Eleanor Arroway" from Sagan's Contact, discovering the means to interstellar travel embedded in pi... that'd fit the moniker.
But having him be the theoretical physicist that discovers the principles behind warp travel, the engineer that figures out how to apply that knowledge, and the pilot that flies the thing? Whoa. We might as well have had Wernher von Braun command Apollo 11. No... that doesn't quite descend to the depths of the FC conceit. Maybe have Einstein formulate the Theories of Relativity, build an A-Bomb AND fly the Enola Gay over Hiroshima. Yep. That's how bad it was.
This movie spit in the face of anybody with half a wit of sense about how science is done. It was worse than a comic depiction. Having him be a drunk? Shit. I couldn't have cared less. Having a concept that appears to have been written by drunks? That should have been on the poster outside the theatre warning anyone thinking of seeing the movie.
Warped9 wrote:
I'm with him. Send a couple of beers to us schmucks at the end of the bar.
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