Which is the point at which this intriguing alternate universe becomes a dystopia.
Your Ideas: Star Trek III but no Leonard Nimoy
- Thread starter somebuddyX
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I would also hate losing Alley in Summer School. Not a good film, but she was hot.Which is the point at which this intriguing alternate universe becomes a dystopia.
I found it fun, though I haven't seen it in years. And yes, she was.I would also hate losing Alley in Summer School. Not a good film, but she was hot.
I'm honestly not sure Star Trek would have worked without Spock, at least not on the big screen. He's part of the triumvirate with Kirk and McCoy, and that is the heart of TOS.
I imagine that Paramount's greed would have led to another film after TWOK's success, but I can't imagine that version of Star Trek III doing well after the curiosity of opening weekend died down. Fans would have likely refused to watch the movie and general audiences would have to be really impressed with whatever followed something like the death of Spock. Spock's death, of course, had the effect of bringing in non-fans and would have been almost impossible to follow. Hell, that's why David Marcus and the Enterprise die as something big needed to happen before Spock's full return.
As for a Spock-less Trek III, I don't know where you can go that beats TWoK...maybe a direct threat to Earth? Do you just do The Voyage Home? That story doesn't work without Spock or, at least, isn't nearly as strong and classic.
I imagine that Paramount's greed would have led to another film after TWOK's success, but I can't imagine that version of Star Trek III doing well after the curiosity of opening weekend died down. Fans would have likely refused to watch the movie and general audiences would have to be really impressed with whatever followed something like the death of Spock. Spock's death, of course, had the effect of bringing in non-fans and would have been almost impossible to follow. Hell, that's why David Marcus and the Enterprise die as something big needed to happen before Spock's full return.
As for a Spock-less Trek III, I don't know where you can go that beats TWoK...maybe a direct threat to Earth? Do you just do The Voyage Home? That story doesn't work without Spock or, at least, isn't nearly as strong and classic.
Is it though? The trio became important as the series went on, but when it started, it was focused on Kirk and how the stories impacted him. And there are a good number of later episodes that separate all three which work like crazy. The Doomsday Machine, for example. Kirk is on the Constellation, Spock is on the Enterprise dealing with Commodore Decker and McCoy is ushered off screen after the first 22 minutes. It is also my favorite Star Trek story franchise wide.
A movie could work without Spock. In fact, Star Trek III did work just fine without him being on screen. There was no lack of heart in the film. Yes, Spock was still the primary motivator, but it was Kirk's story. Replacing Spock with Saavik, and having McCoy there to temper Kirk's prejudice towards her (because she's not Spock), would have retained that mix while giving it a fresh perspective. This was, I think, what they had in mind for Xon in Phase 2. McCoy would still be frustrated with having a Vulcan to deal with but he also took sympathy on him because of the large shoes to fill.
I feel like Star Trek III would have worked just fine with Saavik as the Spock replacement (especially if Kirstie Alley came back). Watching Shatner explore that side of Kirk and grow to accept Saavik would have been a nice change of pace and actually had potential for growth in the series instead of simply restoring the status quo.
And TNG proved that Star Trek can exist just fine with new blood.
As others alluded to it could be pretty similar, switch Carol out for Saavik and have Saavik part of the main crew as the replacement for Spock. Kirk finds out Carol and David are in trouble with the Klingons and steals the Enterprise to go get them, faces off with Kruge as usual. You'd have to pad some stuff out to make up for lost screentime on Vulcan. Might have even been better than the movie we did get.
I find it interesting that, as of January 18, 1982, the second film was being called 'The Undiscovered Country' (or, alternately, Star Trek: The Motion Picture II), even though it was the same Khan story that we know:
If Nimoy had not participated at all, there was still plenty of room for a good story that could have retained a lot of the same elements.
The Genesis project could have been at the heart of a conspiracy such as we saw in the sixth film. All that business about Kirk being kept out of the loop about the ongoing Genesis planet story seemed a little odd, to begin with. He was still a full admiral and he had been right in the middle of the events.
"Only the science team goes to Genesis." Horse hockey. One little Oberth-class science vessel to deal with something so unprecedented?!?
Kirk would have been highly suspicious of that. He would have stolen the Enterprise just to go make sure that his son was safe!
While TSFS is my favorite of the films, much could have been done better.
Same with TWOK. Kirk would not have gotten caught with his pants down. That was wildly out-of-character.
If Nimoy had not participated at all, there was still plenty of room for a good story that could have retained a lot of the same elements.
The Genesis project could have been at the heart of a conspiracy such as we saw in the sixth film. All that business about Kirk being kept out of the loop about the ongoing Genesis planet story seemed a little odd, to begin with. He was still a full admiral and he had been right in the middle of the events.
"Only the science team goes to Genesis." Horse hockey. One little Oberth-class science vessel to deal with something so unprecedented?!?
Kirk would have been highly suspicious of that. He would have stolen the Enterprise just to go make sure that his son was safe!
While TSFS is my favorite of the films, much could have been done better.
Same with TWOK. Kirk would not have gotten caught with his pants down. That was wildly out-of-character.
That was the point. It was supposed to be wildly out of character. It was the fact that Kirk was deskbound, feeling sorry for himself, and generally not the Kirk we all know. It's what McCoy tried to drum into him in his apartment at the beginning of the film.
The promotion to a desk, begun in TMP, was the wrong way to go. It was a 'device' for drama that should not have been done with Kirk.
'Generations' had him doing orbital skydiving....and then just settling in to the nexus. Basically, Picard had to prod him just like McCoy did.
That's why a lot of people don't like the films....Kirk was changed too much. His aging and attitude was too stereotypical. It didn't fit.
You can say that in retrospect, but at the time it was welcome and a logical advancement for an exceptional officer. And Kirk needed an arc. Have the guy who lost a step to get his groove back. That's actually what I liked about the first few TOS movies: there was forward motion and growth from the last time we saw them. And my problem with the ending of TVH was the restoration of the status quo. Everyone back to their spots at the end is just not satisfying for me.
Not in the final edit of the film he didn't. It was rightly cut because it was a) badly performed b) didn't matter and c) was stupid.
So when we first see Kirk, he's retired and you can tell he's not happy. So in the Nexus, he comes up with a different happiness, the one he thought he needed - a long term life partner. Because Kirk lived his best life already, he didn't need to re-live it in the Nexus. He conjured the life he DIDN'T have. Same with Picard. I just wish Antonia was Carol Marcus and David up on that hill. It would have resonated with more recent viewers of the films and giving Shatner a great moment when he and Picard talked about them.
Picard: "Is that Carol?"
Kirk: "...and David." (with great sadness) "My son."
Wow and with Picard just losing his own family, what a connection.
Really? A lot of people don't like "the films?" As a whole? First time I've heard that. Mostly, people don't like them individually, according to taste: "TMP is boring" or "TFF is stupid" or "TUC makes everyone racists." But for the most part, other than two, the TOS movies were well received by fans and even critically.
Nick Meyer hated the title "The Wrath of Khan" and vastly preferred "The Undiscovered Country" which in this case meant death. It was his original title even though he's not listed as a writer (he did the work uncredited).
How large a ship does it need to be? They were trying to keep it under wraps, for good reason, so a small team (and we didn't see all of them - just Saavik and David to check out the life form) without an attention grabbing fleet was fine by me.
It's mine too but other than a few issues mostly caused by last minute shuffling of scenes, I thought it was fine as is.
It has always bothered me that age 50 is seen as "middle aged" in the 23rd century. Kirk wouldn't have let age stop him nor would he have accepted a promotion. I've read novels and comics over the decades that have tried to justify it and while some are good, it just doesn't work. As much as I like TWOK, I do hate that TMP and Kirk's character development were ignored. Don't even get me started on the Enterprise becoming a training ship...
Maybe there's the expectation that Kirk has entered a new phase in his career where most either accept a steady administrative leadership role or quit and goes to do something completely different. Not so much middle aged as you'd think he'd move to the next stage of a Starfleet career. Kirk's known for the unexpected, though.
Do we know that Kirk and Shatner are the same age? Could Kirk possibly be older?
Also, I'm no expert on military practices, and Starfleet may be different from the modern military, but couldn't Kirk have been ordered into a desk job with really no say in the matter?
We get older, muscle memory isn't what it used to be. Kirk is trying to suss out what is going on. Five-year mission Kirk doesn't make that mistake. Ten years behind an Admiral's desk Kirk? Possibly.
Still seems like you would've wanted some kind of support for the Grissom, in the area monitoring the situation. It is wild they sent it out there without any kind of support. What happened wasn't exactly a small explosion, it was on par with Praxis.
I think that is just making it more relatable to the audience.
In Meyer's original script, Kirk was turning 49. According to Meyer's book A View From the Bridge (and I think Meyer's commentary on TWOK as well), Shatner requested that they don't give Kirk's specific age, so that detail was eliminated.
Basically, Shatner had an actor's understandable concern that once he played a particular age, he couldn't ever play slightly younger than that ever again. "Oh, gee, we can't cast Shatner as a 45-year-old... He just played 49 in the new Star Trek movie."
It was in Federation space, so maybe there wasn't an expectation of hostilities. Having said that, I get it. Starfleet restricted the Mutara Sector based on the honor system, going by what we see on screen. Gotta say though, it never crossed my mind until this thread. I also admit that the first 3 movies all get major passes from me for a lot of plot holes because I love them so much.
All three are fun to watch, always will be. Though there are some holes one could fly the Excelsior through.
That's possible, though there seemed to be older captains around in the TOS movie era.
I'm not sure if Shatner and Kirk were the same age. I mainly go by the timeline from the Star Trek Encyclopedia, which establishes that Kirk would be 50. Shatner was a year older than Kirk in '82. As for being ordered to take a desk job, that's certainly a narrative possibility but it also doesn't seem the right way to go with Kirk. He risked a hell of a lot to get his command back in TMP and then, assuming the timeline is correct, gave it up again not a decade later. The reason this wasn't an issue in TWOK is because Meyer has been pretty clear that he and the producers ignored TMP's existence.
I agree that his exact age shouldn't have been revealed and that age shouldn't have come up as an issue in the early TOS films. I could see that by TVH but not in the second film.
Depending on the ship and the mission, you'd have different types of captains; rising star captains for 5yms, older experienced guys for training cruises/back and forth runs, specialists for focused science missions, smaller ships for newly promoted officers, etc.
