Love it. I grew up on TOS, but the Berman era is "my" kind of Trek. I will always love TOS, but TNG and ENT is "Trek" to me.
Your honest opinion on the Berman era
- Thread starter Starflight
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Very well put. This is whats been missing from current trek. Even SNW. Kirk was a strong professional captain. Even after he had to let Eduth Keeler die he kept it to himself when they got back. While I like Pike hes just not the Captain that Kirk was. Hes to indecisive or changes his mind to easily. An example. The speech he gave to M'Benga after the Doctor murdered the klingon ambassador was a strong one. Pike wasn't backing down on his opinion and clearly worried that M'Benga was lying to him. M'Benga even quietly insulted Pike about his privilege of not being in the klingon war. Like Pike hasnt put his life on the line before. Later Pike finds the truth and totally lets it go. That really bothered me that he dropped his principles that quickly especially after M'Benga admitted he murdered the ambassador. TOS was a lot better and Kirk was a much better captain in my opinion.
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GOOD!
Pike was always my favorite because he wrestled. His emotions rage beneath the surface and he used them calculatingly. Kirk was a good captain but wanting him to be like Pike diminishes both leadership capabilities.
That was it for me. Season 2 and Wedding Bell Blues had left me on the fence, not sure if I was going to continue with SNW, but that was the moment I realised I didn't want to watch this captain any more. I dropped the series right there.
Yeah. I was so disappointed. No matter what the ambassador did murdering him on a federation starship was a crime. Pike knew that and gave a good reason why it was so wrong. Yet he lets it go a year later. Really? This is the guy that is supposed to represent the best of starfleet yet flip-flops so easily on his principles and seems to have trouble making decisions on the bridge. TOS kirk for the win. Easily.
I hated the M'Benga stuff too but what first really put me off Pike was the S2 cliffhanger where he's just stood there frozen in terror on the bridge while his crew ask for orders.
People gave me shit on here for talking about it a while ago but it really was just completely insane, especially since they kept cutting back to Una trying to snap him out of it, just to emphasise that this isn't an abstraction or slowmo or something, but literally Pike standing there doing nothing during a crisis, letting his crew down to an extent that's almost funny.
It's a running trend where he shuts down in a way that forces other characters to step up, or just delegates things, which I suppose the writers view as a sign of emotional maturity and a collaborative command style but which tends to read more like he's extraneous and Una (who much more successfully balances command with personal warmth) might as well run the ship herself.
People gave me shit on here for talking about it a while ago but it really was just completely insane, especially since they kept cutting back to Una trying to snap him out of it, just to emphasise that this isn't an abstraction or slowmo or something, but literally Pike standing there doing nothing during a crisis, letting his crew down to an extent that's almost funny.
It's a running trend where he shuts down in a way that forces other characters to step up, or just delegates things, which I suppose the writers view as a sign of emotional maturity and a collaborative command style but which tends to read more like he's extraneous and Una (who much more successfully balances command with personal warmth) might as well run the ship herself.
If only we could all be cold and distant.
ETA: rewatched them back to back. Pike hesitates for 30 seconds, and is still receiving information from Uhura, as well as assessing the viewscreen. There is dramatic slow motion utilized. It isn't as long as being claimed.
ETA: rewatched them back to back. Pike hesitates for 30 seconds, and is still receiving information from Uhura, as well as assessing the viewscreen. There is dramatic slow motion utilized. It isn't as long as being claimed.
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ZERO votes for hate on the Berman era? That's surprising.
For me I love the Berman era and go back to it repeatedly for comfort watching, specially TNG and ENT.
But the entire era is overall so fucking great, nothing has matched up to it since then.
For me I love the Berman era and go back to it repeatedly for comfort watching, specially TNG and ENT.
But the entire era is overall so fucking great, nothing has matched up to it since then.
Yeah. That was bad as well. Seeing him standing there confused or not sure what to do. I watched A Private Little War a a couple years ago. Its an episode i havent seen as much as some others. I know some people despise it but I see it another way. Kirk has to make a decision on how to best help Tyre and his people from being slaughtered by the tribe the klingons have taught to make flintlocks. Kirks solution was to arm Tyres people with guns as well. McCoy hated the idea. But Kirk ultimately made the decision. Right or wrong he did what he thought would give Tyres people a fighting chance. At the end of the episode after all that happened Shatner gave a good performance of Kirk seeming exhausted and just wanting to go back to the Enterprise. I was even worn out by watching the episode and the awful decision Kirk had to make. He never complained or waffled. It was his decision and his alone. I like the episode. The ending hit hard and Kirk really seemed exhausted by what he went through, Tyre no longer a pacifist and his solution. Not always fun and glamorous being a starship captain.
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Rewatch TOS and see Kirk is somehow who will hesitate at times. We see it with McCoy, we see it with Kirk and we see it with Pike.
Pike is taking in information. Just like Kirk does, but he's more reflective and asks for options, also like Kirk.
Sure he might hesitate but he is usually super confident in all the decisions he makes. I just dont see thst confidence in pike. He stood his ground with M'Benga after he suspected M'Benga murdered the ambassador. He folded in season 3. It was such a weak moment for Pike.
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I can defend Pike in "Shuttle to Kenfori" regarding M'Benga.
They had just gotten out of a near death situation, one where M'Benga fought a Klingon in combat to save an injured Pike. And all of this while he volunteered for an off book mission to find a plant to help save Pike's girlfriend.
I wouldn't call Pike's reaction to M'Benga a weak moment at all. I'd call that a great bonding moment... and clearly not the first, as the episode showed us they have been friends for a long time before the series began.
So as long as M'Benga helped poke it was ok to murder an ambassador on the Enterprise? M'Benga is a stsrfleet chief medical officer of the Enterprise. Its his job to save lives. Also saving Pike still doesn't absolve him of his crime.
It's also his job to save his own life, too.
Considering Dak'Rah kept harassing M'Benga after being asked repeatedly to be left alone, and Dak'Rah was close to the box where the knife was... no, M'Benga did not murder him.
And frankly, given how he killed a LOT of innocent people, including children, and was a coward and had his subordinates die in his place, Dak'Rah had it coming.
M'Benga was actually honoring Klingon tradition.
No, it wasn't. It was him doing what Pike does which is weighing out consequences. He is a man who looks for options and choices first. That's not weakness.
He did have had it coming but as pike said it wasnt their job to be judge, jury and executioner. Thats what tribunals are for.
Ill need to review the episode again about the murder issue.
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Yeah that was REALLY baffling.
They were obviously channeling BOTW part 1 cliffhanger - but there, after seriois contemplating, Riker gives to order to "fire". The end.
In hegemony they didn't.
I think the scene could have been exactly the same - including him struggling for a while - if we then see him open his mouth to form a command, and then... cut to black.
With this, we would still see the struggle to find a good decision - totally relatable - but then the cliffhanger would be "what did he land on?".
Instead, the season ended and we were left wondering "is he still frozen? Is he actually able to make a decision? To lead?"
That was certainly not intended - and in the beginning of part 2 we see he DID pretty much immediately jump back into action.
But yes - this moment completely unnecessarily damaged his character, in a crucial moment, when we had to wait a year for a resolution.
It's amazing to see different reactions. As Einstein said, time is relative. Apparently, asking people wait a year made those 30 seconds also last a year.
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