Your asessment of this accident:

[Trekker4747]

Agreed. However, would it make a difference if there was a left turn immediately after a right turn for the car "2" that might warrant a wide turn, especially if it was the only way to access an establishment? Trekker's diagram shows a such left turn...

I know I've been in situations like that.

I suspect the guy wanted to make a left down at that major intersection. But that's not an excuse to overturn.

You turn into the proper-lane then either overtake any traffic in the other lane or undertake it and change lanes properly.

Here's a Google Maps look at the intersection. The buildings redacted because, well why do you need them for anyway?!

Hopefully to maybe give some idea of "scale" that the drawing above doesn't provide.

I'd say the impact happened when I was about half way down the section of median before it opens up to make the turn lane. Maybe slightly more to the south than the north-bound car is, because after he hit me and we stopped I ended up right where the turn lane begins to spawn, and he pulled over about at the end of the diagonal portion, maybe just behind the first arrow.

The edges of the redactions I created match the curb-line in the original satellite image. His car was positioned about a quarter-way around that turn (maybe the 1 or 2-o'clock position) facing down the hill towards the major intersection.

So, yeah, you can see that I had to travel a lot further (coming from the drive at the top on the east-side of the picture) to get to point of collision than he had to. Which suggests that I was in that lane or very close to being in it by the time he would have started moving since I had more of a distance to cover than he did.

Seems to me he should have seen me there at some point before he started moving. And regardless of who has the right of way to enter an intersection first, the person already in the intersection always has the right of way.

 

[StarCruiser]

Thirded. He should have pulled into the lane nearest him.

Turning into the lane nearest to you would be the rule in Texas too...

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Here's a Google Maps look at the intersection. The buildings redacted because, well why do you need them for anyway?!

Drone strike on Starbucks?

 

[Alpha Romeo]

The reason it may be shared fault is because -- in most states I'm aware of, anyway -- a vehicle turning left is supposed to yield right-of-way to a vehicle turning right or going straight through. Turning into the wrong lane is really the main cause of the accident, IMO, but it's unfortunately something people do all the time where I live so I would probably have hung back until car 2 moved.

I think this is the most likely answer but the other guy may have a significantly larger percentage of fault given that he should have seen Trekker make his left turn and avoided him before the impact.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

With it being an uncontrolled intersection it gives guy #2 the right of way as Trekker4747 has to cross guy #2s primary lane of travel.

I think that Trekker absolutely would have to yield to oncoming traffic in that scenario, but I don't think that's the same that he has to stay out of the path of a car going straight when there isn't a car going straight. The guy was turning. That's why I don't think "primary lane of travel" is relevant.

Granted, I'm not opposed to the argument that it's comparative negligence with both having relatively similar fault. I'm just saying that, if one car gets the greater blame here, it's the car that made an improper turn rather than the car that failed to yield to a car making an improper turn.

Should have read further before commending. Two Lawyers are pretty much in agreement here Trekker.

 

[Trekker4747]

So I went to that intersection and did some "testing" today. Because now I'm wondering where he was at when I was in the intersection making my turn (both by the motion of my car and my signal.)

From a stopping point at the end of the exit-drive until my car is straight next to the hard median is about 4 seconds given normal acceleration while making the turn. (Reaching a speed of about 15 miles an hour.)

From the point he was at on the opposite side of the street at the threshold of the drive to the approximate impact point in the inside lane (the one next to the median) is about 2 seconds, probably about 2 and a half and, again, this is with my normal acceleration with a 4-cylinder sedan through a turn. He was an older man driving a Toyota SUV which is also a 4-cylinder vehicle but since it's heavier not likely as peppy as my sedan and older people are not known for being heavy on the gas.

So this suggests that I was likely already in the intersection for as long as 2 seconds making my turn before he even left his position at the end of the drive. Given that I was making a turn and my signal was on my intentions and potential end-point was clear.

Now, granted, two seconds isn't a lot of time. But if he and I left our stopping points at the same time he would have been ahead of me, likely cutting me off and I would have hit him or would have had to brake or make an evasive maneuver.

But considering we reached the same point at the same time and I had a greater distance to travel he must have entered the intersection after I did. Regardless of who had the right-of-way to move first, once I'm in the intersection I have the right-of-way.

Again, two seconds isn't a whole lot of time even when moving at slow speeds around 15-20 miles an hour but it's certainly enough time to see someone entering an intersection from across the road. Which is why I moved first. When the cross traffic was clear, I waited a beat, he didn't move, so entered the intersection.

Close to two seconds would have passed then he decided to move. Two seconds later he hit me.

That things happened like this would have supported the idea that "he didn't see me." For whatever reason, likely not paying attention.

Because it seems that when he decided to hit his gas I was already in the intersection.

Then we get to the idea of a person having the responsibility to mitigate their own damages. (I.E. prevent an accident when one is about to occur.)

I may have seen him out of the corner of my eye/in my mirror just before he was about to hit me. But I don't the accidents occurrence really came to me until I heard the noise of him causing the damage to my car.

When the accident was about to happen there was nothing I could do to prevent it. To avoid it I would had to have swerved to the left which would mean I would have it the hard median which would cause damage to my car. At worst I would have driven over the median and been in the oncoming lane. Braking would have done me no good as his movement still would have caused me damage.

He, however, should have seen he was about to wreck and would have been able to steer sharply to the right into the open lane in order to avoid the accident, or simply braked.

 

[Kestra]

Shared fault sounds probable to me here.

 

[Yanks]

The way I see it, from the way you describe it, I'm taking it he hit the right rear quarter panel on your car.

I don't see how this could be your fault.

 

[Timby]

With it being an uncontrolled intersection it gives guy #2 the right of way as Trekker4747 has to cross guy #2s primary lane of travel.

Yep. At uncontrolled intersections, left-turners yield to everything, up to and including the worms on the asphalt.

 

[Melakon]

But from the original illustration, the sequence sounds like Trekker was already in the intersection before the Other Guy entered it.

I've not been in KC in 30 years, so a lot's probably changed*, but I'm wondering if this happened anywhere near the Ward Parkway area. And whether either car had out of state plates based on which side of the state line they were on.


* = But a building I lived in at 612 E 9th St, KCMO was still standing last time I checked Google Maps. We had a great view of the Federal Building, and a TraveLodge used to be across the street from us.

 

[Trekker4747]

The way I see it, from the way you describe it, I'm taking it he hit the right rear quarter panel on your car.

I don't see how this could be your fault.

Front passenger (right) fender/quarter panel.

Yep. At uncontrolled intersections, left-turners yield to everything, up to and including the worms on the asphalt.

But, cars waiting at a stop yield to cars in the intersection, right? And regardless of right-of-way you still don't get to make a wide turn into a the far lane.

 

[Captain Ice]

I suspect the guy wanted to make a left down at that major intersection. But that's not an excuse to overturn.

[snip]

I'd say the impact happened when I was about half way down the section of median before it opens up to make the turn lane. Maybe slightly more to the south than the north-bound car is, because after he hit me and we stopped I ended up right where the turn lane begins to spawn, and he pulled over about at the end of the diagonal portion, maybe just behind the first arrow.

The edges of the redactions I created match the curb-line in the original satellite image. His car was positioned about a quarter-way around that turn (maybe the 1 or 2-o'clock position) facing down the hill towards the major intersection.

So, yeah, you can see that I had to travel a lot further (coming from the drive at the top on the east-side of the picture) to get to point of collision than he had to. Which suggests that I was in that lane or very close to being in it by the time he would have started moving since I had more of a distance to cover than he did.

Seems to me he should have seen me there at some point before he started moving. And regardless of who has the right of way to enter an intersection first, the person already in the intersection always has the right of way.

Not sure about the law in Kansas, but from your description of where he was stopped, in Arizona, he would be considered as being stopped in the intersection. Also, in this state, he would have owned the right of way as you had to turn across his lane.

With it being an uncontrolled intersection it gives guy #2 the right of way as Trekker4747 has to cross guy #2s primary lane of travel.

Yep. At uncontrolled intersections, left-turners yield to everything, up to and including the worms on the asphalt.

Totally.

 

[Timby]

But, cars waiting at a stop yield to cars in the intersection, right? And regardless of right-of-way you still don't get to make a wide turn into a the far lane.

It was an unlawful lane change, you are correct. But with no turn signal on, and with the potential for him to go straight, you shouldn't have assumed he would turn "just because" he looked in position to do so. When it comes to making a left turn across traffic, you're the low man on the totem pole in terms of priority.

You're not completely at fault, but neither is the other guy.

 

[Captain Ice]

Yep. At uncontrolled intersections, left-turners yield to everything, up to and including the worms on the asphalt.

But, cars waiting at a stop yield to cars in the intersection, right? And regardless of right-of-way you still don't get to make a wide turn into a the far lane.

Not always. I'm presuming that you were stopped at the edge of the exit/road on the right hand side of the diagram before you entered the intersection (also the law) unless there is a traffic signal there. Were you still at the edge of the roadway when he pulled up/was stopped at the intersection himself?

 

[Captain Ice]

One other question...have you considered getting a couple of estimates while you are waiting for the insurance companies? You may be able to find someplace that can do the job better, do it cheaper, or give you a "it's not pretty, but the car will be safe for the road (ie no refinishing the parts to match the car) price that can get you the six months you seem to want for your new car.

If the insurance companies decide your car is worth less than what it would cost to fix, then you have a few options to keep it on the road safely until you are ready to jump on your Mustang.

 

[Trekker4747]

But, cars waiting at a stop yield to cars in the intersection, right? And regardless of right-of-way you still don't get to make a wide turn into a the far lane.

It was an unlawful lane change, you are correct. But with no turn signal on, and with the potential for him to go straight, you shouldn't have assumed he would turn "just because" he looked in position to do so. When it comes to making a left turn across traffic, you're the low man on the totem pole in terms of priority.

You're not completely at fault, but neither is the other guy.

Well, I can't say he *didn't* have a turn-signal on, just that I didn't see one. But I assumed he was turning from the way his car was positioned which if he were making a left-turn or going straight would require him to have turn left (or more to the left int he latter case.)

But, again, from the timing of things it seems to me I was in the intersection first. I had further to travel than he did and considering we met at the same spot (hence the collision) he would have to started moving AFTER I did. Which means I was in the intersection first.

Not sure about the law in Kansas, but from your description of where he was stopped, in Arizona, he would be considered as being stopped in the intersection. Also, in this state, he would have owned the right of way as you had to turn across his lane.

He wasn't stopped in the intersection, he was behind the intersection threshold, still on the side-street.

And I didn't turn across his lane he turned across HIS lane to get into MY lane.

Here's how was taught on how the system is supposed to work when you have cars on opposite sides of an intersection turning onto a multi-laned street. The car turns into the lane closest to him:

He did this: (Him being the car in the bottom-left corner heading "east.")

He turned wide, he didn't go into his nearest lane and do what he needed from there to get into the lane he needed to be in.

And, if you consider the car turning left has further to travel than the car turning right in order for there to be an impact the car turning right would have to enter the middle of the intersection after the car turning left has entered the intersection. And the car in the intersection has the right of way.

And the guy even said that he "didn't see me" which he should have given that I didn't have my car's cloaking-device on that afternoon and that well, when he was heading into that lane I was right in front of him.

I can *almost* see the "split-fault" idea but I think the bulk of the fault falls on his end.

Me? Maybe I moved first to turn when I didn't have the right of way to turn. That's about the only thing I can see that I did wrong. But, I did wait a moment for him to move when cross-traffic was clear and he didn't. Could I have waited longer? Perhaps. But it doesn't take more than a second (if that long) to move your foot from the brake to the gas and press down on it. It took him quite some time, again factoring in he would have to started moving after I was already moving) to make that move. Even longer considering traffic from the north had been gone for a while and he could have made his turn well before I had a chance too due to traffic from the south. So, again, maybe I moved too soon. Fine.

But he:

1. Turned wide, not going into his nearest lane but rather changed lanes in the turn.

2. Admitted he didn't see me (inattentive driving.)

3. Didn't take evasive action to avoid the collision.

4. Had to have entered the intersection when I was already in it clearly making a left turn.

So if there's a split-fault I think the bulk of it should go to him since he "did more wrong" in this collision.

And, again, I didn't get ticketed for failing to yield to the right-of-way. I should be able to get the police-report Tuesday to see if he was ticketed/what the cops said.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

Sounds like you're lucky he turned and didn't t-bone you as you turned in front of him.

 

[Trekker4747]

Not always. I'm presuming that you were stopped at the edge of the exit/road on the right hand side of the diagram before you entered the intersection (also the law) unless there is a traffic signal there. Were you still at the edge of the roadway when he pulled up/was stopped at the intersection himself?

We both reached the threshold of our respective intersections at about the same time. I think he was behind another car which turned right, he pulled up, stopped and waited for traffic to clear. Pretty much the same for me and I remember seeing him pulling to threshold and I believe he was "inching" a bit to start his turn. Traffic headed from his left subsided, he didn't move. Moment later traffic headed from MY left subsided, giving me a window, and he still hadn't moved yet so I went forward. (Figuring he had his up his ass, or was waiting on something else.) After completing my turn and was straightened out the impact occurred.

One other question...have you considered getting a couple of estimates while you are waiting for the insurance companies? You may be able to find someplace that can do the job better, do it cheaper, or give you a "it's not pretty, but the car will be safe for the road (ie no refinishing the parts to match the car) price that can get you the six months you seem to want for your new car.

If the insurance companies decide your car is worth less than what it would cost to fix, then you have a few options to keep it on the road safely until you are ready to jump on your Mustang.

I got the Insurance Appraisal from his insurance company Thursday afternoon at local dealership for my make of car. The guy said he'd work-up an estimate and let the insurance company know. I asked him what he felt it would be and he ball-parked it at $1500. My car is worth between $1500-$2500 Blue-Book value for mileage/condition it was in before the collision. The guy seemed to think they could get it done to prevent the car from being totaled-out.

When it comes time to fix it I intend to to whatever needs to be done in order to keep the car and prevent it from being totaled. I don't much care of the paint on the fender matches the tone of the paint on the hood or door (as long as they're both basically the same color.) The plastic shroud under the wheel-well is broken which I can also deal with. The bumper is scuffed and cracked a bit. Again, I can cope with it.

The fender is pretty badly dented and scratched up and will certainly need to be replaced. The passenger-side wing mirror is also broken off its mounts on the door. It's still on there and usable (it's not dangling and I've readjusted it to work for me) but probably should be re-mounted. Whether this means replacing the whole mirror or fixing the mounting mechanism I don't know.

The fender is dented in such a way it prevents the passenger-side door from being able to open enough for someone to get into the car.

The impact caused some scuffing on the right-front wheel and tire but neither are damaged enough to the point they're not usable.

The force of the impact seems to have knocked my front-end alignment out of whack so that'll need to be replaced.

So, really, the only thing I *want* fixed is the fender, mirror and alignment. Everything else I can deal with.

If the fault is split in such a way that I have to come-up with my deductible I may not bother to prevent my insurance from going up (which it likely wouldn't since I haven't had an accident count against me since I was a teenager and no tickets) and not having to come-up with the deductible.

If it comes to it, I'll just take the fender off the car, bash in the side that sits flush with the door so it'll work again and be on my way. I'm never using the car as a trade-in or selling it so I don't really *need* it to look pretty.

If the fault goes with him enough that he has to pay for my repairs then and the insurance company(ies) decide to total my car out I'll do that, take the check, buy the car back for a few hundred dollars as a totaled car, which will drop my insurance to liability only, and the do my barn-house repair job to get the door to work and get the mirror fixed. (Or just deal with it like it is. Again, it's set so that it works and it's secure on the frame and not in danger of falling off.)

It's a 15-year-old-car with 140,000 miles on it. So it's not like it's going to be worth anything as a trade-in or to sell.

I've not yet been sent for a damage appraisal my my own insurance company nor have I gotten my own estimates yet.

 

[Kestra]

For what it's worth, I'm happy you're okay and I don't think you're going to change any opinions here.

 

[Yanks]

In my view if you were in the intersection first you have the right of way. Either way he did not have any right to your lane his was open and where he's supposed to be anyway.