Young Justice-Tonight!

[shivkala]

There's a reason why DC's "team-up" show was not called Superman: The Brave and the Bold.

Nah, it's because Batman starred in the Brave and the Bold comic for like 30 years.

Fair enough, though my point still stands, there's a reason why Superman didn't star in The Brave and the Bold

^

Superboy #82 made the connection between Jim and Roy Harper, according to Wikipedia.

You can see their meeting in these scans.

Not sure which branch of the family he's a part of, but Roy is also related to Vandal Savage. Just a fun, FYI.

Goes further back than that. Teen Titan #44 (1976) was the first time Roy and Jim were linked. Mal becomes the "Guardian" because for some reason Roy is storing Jim's old costume and equipment at Titans HQ.[/QUOTE]

Did not know that! I love little bits of continuity that writers use to link the universe together.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Superman had a team up book for a while called DC Comics Presents and Byrne's run on Action Comics was a team up book.

 

[Gotham Central]

I really wish that at some point they have Superman openly address his issues with Connor. Right now his attitude just makes him look like a dick...especially since its obvious to everyone that Connor has some issues and could use his help. Clark's dereliction of duty on this front is VERY atypical for the character and really needs explanation.

To be fair to Young Justice...I've felt that Clark was unusually distant with Connor for a while. Even before the recent reboot, he stuck him in Smallville with his mother rather than taking responsibility himself. It was the exact opposite position that he took with Kara when she arrived (and he immediately embraced as a member of the family that he wanted to look after...and his paternal attitude toward Lor-Zod (aka Christoper Kent) who he and Lois were ready to adopt and raise personally.

Thus his approach to Connor...who is in effect his biological son (with Lex Luthor...how's that for HoYay Smallville fans...) just seems very odd. Clark Kent has always been about duty, honor and responsibility. This his behavior in Young Justice is inexcusable. The fact that he throws a fit when confronted by Bruce is hard to accept. They need to show him talking about this candidly with someone in order to redeem his character. In fact, judging by what was said in "Agendas" Clark has been somewhat protective of people he even THINKS might be Kryptonian. Yet here he is faced with someone who actually is Kryptonian and is technically his son...he want's nothing to do with him. This just makes him look bad.

Oh boy...you've touched my buttons here...no, you've pounded on them with an Nth metal club.

I'm not steeped in comics lore..I was a causal reader back in the day, but not a huge devotee. So most of what I know, basically, comes from the various shows. This particular storyline has touched a nerve I never knew I had. From the beginning of the show, nobody (in verse) seems to get Clark's discomfort over Connor. Superman's dna was taken, and without his knowledge or consent, used to create a living being. Why are his closest friends and allies shoving this kid at him and expecting paternal feelings to blossom?? I've made this argument in the past-let's switch genders...someone takes dna from Woman Woman, Black Canary, or Zatanna, without consent and cooks up a baby in a lab. Would we not understand how...queasy this would make them? It's a violation of the highest order, yet, Supes is treated as if it's no biggie? Go play daddy with scowling boy. Have fun!


Kara is his cousin, he'd have no reason but rejoice that a direct member of his family survived the homeworld's destruction...Since Connor is a clone of (mostly) Kal El, that technically and genetically makes him the ''second to last son of Krypton'' (yeah, I know, the Kandorians are out there somewhere..), he's Laura and Jor El's son and not Superman's baby boy. And with this episode's revelation (who's the mommie...ick ), I can't help but wonder if Clark knows this, explaining his reticence.
Heaven forbid this ever winds up on Maury Povich.

Connor cannot really be called a clone when half of his DNA comes from Lex Luthor. When a person takes half of their DNA and blends it with half of someone else's what you end up with is essentially their offspring and not a clone. Connor was born in a lab and has no mother and two fathers...but he is, by definition more their child than their clone. Match was was more obviously a clone.

 

[shivkala]

D'oh, so you're right. Of course, I could argue Byrne's Action Comics lead to the switch to a non-Superman focus in Action Comics with the launch of Action Comics Weekly and DC Comics Presents was pre-Crisis.

 

[Hound of UIster]

There's a reason why DC's "team-up" show was not called Superman: The Brave and the Bold.

Nah, it's because Batman starred in the Brave and the Bold comic for like 30 years.

Fair enough, though my point still stands, there's a reason why Superman didn't star in The Brave and the Bold

It was because of the popularity of the Adam West tv show. Both you and Weisman seem to have some flawed understanding of Superman that doesn't seem to be grounded in the actual background material of the character.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Superman's continued treatment of Conner is one of the reasons why I don't like this show very much. I understand for reasons of drama and plot they've probably chosen to play up this angle, but it really should have been addressed much earlier. It just is another example of Super Dickory on Clark's part Understandable that he would have issues with his clone (however you want to classify Conner) but it has gone on way too long and created an uncomfortable dynamic between the two characters. Conner needs guidance and mentorship, not distance and awkwardness. The comic book Superman got over any issues he had with Superboy fairly quickly and of course bestowed the name "Kon-El" upon him. The New 52 Superboy seems to have characteristics much like the "Young Justice" version, and Superman hasn't met him yet (they're probably waiting for the upcoming Superman family book self contained event) either.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know who Goliath is but whoever came up with the name "Thailog" should be shot.

Goliath was the main character of Greg Weisman's most beloved animated series, Gargoyles. It was an awesome show and well worth watching, though unfortunately the entire series is not available on DVD. (Though it's in reruns at 4 AM weekdays on Disney XD -- just be sure you stop with "The Journey," the first episode of the Goliath Chronicles season. The rest of that season was made without Weisman's involvement and is very bad, and it's been contradicted by Weisman's later Gargoyles comics). A lot of former Gargoyles cast members have been on Young Justice, such as Ed Asner (Kent Nelson), Marina Sirtis (Queen Bee), Brent Spiner (Joker), Jeff Bennett (Red Tornado), Thom Adcox Hernandez (Clarion), Kath Soucie (Mera), and Bill Fagerbakke (Big Bear).

Weisman was inspired to create and name the Thailog character, Goliath's evil clone, when he heard a reverse playback of Keith David (who voiced Goliath) saying his character's name.

Nah, it's because Batman starred in the Brave and the Bold comic for like 30 years.

Fair enough, though my point still stands, there's a reason why Superman didn't star in The Brave and the Bold

But it's not the reason you're claiming. It's getting it backward to think they started with the goal to do a teamup show and then decided what hero they wanted to anchor it with. Rather, they started with the intention of doing another Batman show to follow The Batman, and when they hired James Tucker to develop it, he decided he wanted to do it as a Silver Age-tribute Brave and the Bold teamup show.

After all, Batman has been DC and Warner Bros.' most popular superhero for decades. That alone should be the obvious reason why they'd make Batman the star of any given show.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I don't know who Goliath is but whoever came up with the name "Thailog" should be shot.

Goliath was the main character of Greg Weisman's most beloved animated series, Gargoyles.

Oh, I've seen a Gargoyles a couple of times but I figured it was some DC character I hadn't heard about. Regardless, that whole backwards naming schtick should be retired. Tobor, Alucard, SIDRAT, and all the rest.

 

[shivkala]

Nah, it's because Batman starred in the Brave and the Bold comic for like 30 years.

Fair enough, though my point still stands, there's a reason why Superman didn't star in The Brave and the Bold

But it's not the reason you're claiming. It's getting it backward to think they started with the goal to do a teamup show and then decided what hero they wanted to anchor it with. Rather, they started with the intention of doing another Batman show to follow The Batman, and when they hired James Tucker to develop it, he decided he wanted to do it as a Silver Age-tribute Brave and the Bold teamup show.

After all, Batman has been DC and Warner Bros.' most popular superhero for decades. That alone should be the obvious reason why they'd make Batman the star of any given show.[/QUOTE]

My point was that Batman more naturally fits the "team-up" aspect than Superman does. At least as they were written post-Crisis. Batman has a core group that he works with on a regular basis, Superman does not. Superboy was never going to be a sidekick to Superman whether in the DCU or the YJ universe.

 

[Hound of UIster]

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Batman is Warner Bros/DC Ent's most popular character right now...they did "Brave and the Bold" because of that reason. Not to mention the fact that they wanted to target a little younger audience with the premise of that series and homage various parts of the Batman mythology. Superman doesn't work as a team up character, despite his inspirational influence on heroes across the world and in the rest of the galaxy as well, on occasion yes...maybe one day we'll get a "World's Finest" animated series where this happens, but as long as Batman remains the most popular character and there is an enormous interest and appetite to see him (not to mention interest from creative talent to keep doing Batman shows) this is what we'll continue to get. I see the point about Superman and Superboy, but the way they're going about their relationship in this series is a little weird and doesn't work on a dramatic level to me.

 

[Christopher]

It's weird to hear claims that Superman doesn't do teamups when he's one of the founding members of the Justice League. Let's look at the animated Superman productions we've had in the past two decades:

• Superman: TAS: Mostly solo, but had multiple teamup episodes with Batman, Flash, Lobo, Dr. Fate, Orion, Supergirl, the Legion of Super Heroes (as teenage Clark), Steel, Kyle Rayner/Green Lantern, and Aquaman.
• Justice League/JLU: Superman is a founding member of the League and routinely works as a team player.
• Static Shock: Superman is absent from the JL crossover episode, but later teams up with Static.
• Superman: Brainiac Attacks: Solo
• Legion of Super Heroes: "Superman" (actually Superboy) serves as a member of the Legion.
• The Batman: Superman guest stars and teams up with Batman (although in an inversion of the usual pattern, Batman is the team player who needs to convince Superman to join up).
• Superman: Doomsday: Solo
• Justice League: The New Frontier: Superman joins with other heroes in fighting a powerful threat.
• Superman/Batman: Public Enemies and Apocalypse: Superman partners with Batman.
• JL: Crisis on Two Earths and Doom: Superman is a member of the League.
• Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam: Superman takes the brand-new Captain Marvel under his wing.
• All-Star Superman: Mostly solo
• Krypto the Superdog: Rarely seen, portrayed as an absentee master to Krypto because he's so busy saving the world.
• Batman: The Brave and the Bold: Superman only appears a few times, but always teaming up with Batman, and with Wonder Woman in one case.
• Young Justice: Superman is a founding member of the JL.

So the vast majority of Superman's appearances in animation in the past two decades paint him as someone who's perfectly fine with being a team player. The only instance I can see that fits the idea of Batman being more of a team player than Superman is the Superman guest appearance in The Batman. I do recall Superman saying there that he prefers to work alone because he feels that less powerful partners would slow him down. But he comes around to the idea of partnership by the end of the episode. And it's definitely an exception to the rule.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Faster and than the Flash (Snigger.) with a sense perception sphere that extended perhaps a thousand miles on a good day when he combines all his supersenses...

There would very few conflicts in America that Superman doesn't 'decide' as to whether he wants to, or not to become involved in.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Not to mention Superman is usually seen as the Justice League's leader or chair person, if he isn't in title...oh bad job on me Christopher mentioned this already!

 

[Thestral]

I don't have any problem with Superman being kind of a jerk to Superboy; I don't need him to always be perfect and I'm willing to see if he'll grow into accepting Connor more.

 

[shivkala]

I guess I'm trying (and failing) to express my point. I know Superman does team-ups. I'm not saying he's not a team player. I'm trying to express that Superman, at least post-Crisis through the early 90's really was more of a loner than Batman. During this point, he refused to join the League (even though some of his adventures with the League were retconned as him just happening to be there helping out). This Superman was never a part of the Legion. In the post-Crisis, pre-Infinite Crisis DCU, Batman joined the League long before Superman did. It took him years to view Batman as a friend and he really did not have much of a friendship with any of the heroes.

And my main point is that, unlike Batman, who took partners (notice the plural) under his wing, Superman never did. He was reluctant to accept Superboy at first blush, but understood the kid was trying the best he could to live up to the "S." And again, even this Superman, who was more accepting of Superboy than the Young Justice version, took a long time to fully accept him. It took years for Superman to come around and introduce Superboy to his Kryptonian heritage, when he took the name "Kon-El" after years of being known only as Superboy. It was a few years after that when he came up with the idea of having Superboy live with the Kents. By comparison, when he returned from the pocket-universe with the Matrix-Supergirl, he had the Kents look after her. Granted it was because she was injured, but if he afforded that to a protoplasmic creature who slightly resembled Lana Lang, why wouldn't he have done the same for Superboy, earlier?

If this was the Pre-Crisis or even Post-Infinite Crisis Superman, I think he would have been more accepting of him. That Superman viewed an amnesiac Lar-Gand as a brother, going as far as to help him get a "Kryptonian" name (as much as , "Hey, it's Monday, so we'll call you Mon, Mon-El," is a valid Kryptonian way of naming someone). If it was the Pre-Crisis, member of the Legion as a boy, founding member of the League, best friends with Batman, close friends with Flash and Green Lantern, version of Superman, then he most likely would have taken Superboy under his wing, and immediately named him Kon-El (or, given the goofiness of the Silver Age, "Clon-EL" because "Clon" is short for "clone"). There's a great scene in the late 90's when Dominus sends Superman into four different time periods, one of which is a take-off of the Silver Age and we see the Superman family, Superboy, Supergirl, and Steel, all playing super-baseball. I think that's the Superman most of you are thinking of, when I'm thinking of the Byrne era Superman.

While I agree that the Superman in Young Justice is massively standoffish of Superboy, it's not as if the version in the comic book was all that accepting of him. He may have been nicer, but it took him a long time to consider him a part of his "family."

 

[Christopher]

Well, I was speaking more of how Superman has been interpreted in animation. If we're talking specifically about the characterization of the Young Justice/"Earth 16" version of Superman, it's hard to argue that he's a loner when we've only ever seen him in the context of his Justice League membership. So I question whether that aspect of the comics Superman's characterization is relevant to explaining the behavior of this distinct version of Superman.

 

[shivkala]

Only is so far as I imagine the creators are influenced by previous iterations of the character, both from the comics and other TV shows. If the comics had shown Superman embracing him with arms wide open, then I doubt the TV show have the same portrayal.

I guess at this point, I only hope that the creators have a sense of where they want to go with this and provide a satisfying conclusion to this plot thread. Regardless, I doubt we'll ever see this Superman playing superbaseball with the entire Superfamily.

 

[Reverend]

Well, this is what a character arc is all about though, no? I mean if Supes were to instantly accept Conner then there wouldn't be much of a story and little character development in either of them. So far this has been the best written DC animated show since JLU at it's zenith, so I don't think we have much to worry about.

 

[Thestral]

^ Agreed.