Yoda v Palpatine

[Vanyel]

OK, first let me say I did a quick search and didn't see anything about this topic. Granted I only looked back 2 pages worth of topics, but I figure that should be far enough.

Now Yoda and Palpatine have the big fight that most likely everyone was waiting for - I know I was - in The Revenge of the Sith. The fight was hard fought by both. Both got in good shots, but Yoda did seem to be more on the defensive (perhaps sticking to his beliefs that he told Luke, that the Force is for defense). But he did well with his "superball" jumping during their duel and catching and throwing the Senate platform back at Palpatine.

Then comes the end of the duel. Palpatine knocks Yoda's light saber from his hand with Force Lightening, forcing Yoda to block and either disperse or maybe even convert (Into what I'm not sure.) the lightening Palpatine is throwing at him. They are just a few feet from each other and Yoda gets a look that, to me, says "I'm ending this." in his eyes and Palpatine looks to show fear. The two are then blown apart. Palpatine falls back into the Senate platform while Yoda falls to the Senate floor.

Now my question is, was Yoda winning? At that point where Palpatine shows some fear, was Yoda winning the duel? And had he not fallen all the way to the Senate floor, could he have beaten Palpatine.

Or maybe, did Yoda see the prophecy fall into place. Did Yoda see that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, and then leave the fight knowing that Anakin would be the one to kill Palpatine. Having those pieces of the future come to him and knowing that only Anakin could bring balance back to the Force; did Yoda throw the fight to give himself time to escape so he could train Luke.

He did tell Senator Organa that he had failed, but he could have been keeping it all secret, so that no one else would attempt to defeat Palpatine until the time was right.

Opinions? Musings? Thoughts?

And as I usually do when I write a post late at night, it's 2:20AM here, please excuse my grammar and/or spelling.

 

[Hermiod]

My answer to this is that Yoda wasn't losing. He was taking everything Palpatine could dish out.

What he couldn't do, however, was go on the offensive. Palpatine's offence (throwing the hovering Senate pods at him) meant that he couldn't get close enough to attack. Remember Empire - a Jedi only uses the Force for defence, never for attack.

Yoda effectively won the fight because Palpatine realised that Yoda was not going to succumb to his offence and decided to run away instead.

 

[btflash]

My answer to this is that Yoda wasn't losing. He was taking everything Palpatine could dish out.

What he couldn't do, however, was go on the offensive. Palpatine's offence (throwing the hovering Senate pods at him) meant that he couldn't get close enough to attack. Remember Empire - a Jedi only uses the Force for defence, never for attack.

Yoda effectively won the fight because Palpatine realised that Yoda was not going to succumb to his offence and decided to run away instead.

i agree. i got the distinct impression watching that fight that yoda would win if he went on the offensive.

 

[Hermiod]

^But the only offensive action he has available to him is his lightsaber. Even throwing a few pods back at Palpatine would count as using the Force for attack rather than defence.

 

[Magisterfrodo]

I think Yoda knew he only had a small window to take out Palpatine before he was totally overwhelmed by clone troopers. He was winning, but he was also very tired. After he got knocked to the Senate floor, he realised he couldn't win in time, so he left. I don't buy that he refused to go on the offensive. He sent Obi-Wan to kill Anakin, and his job was to kill Palpatine. If he wasn't going to go on the offensive, then he wouldn't have been there.

 

[Starkers]

I do wonder if Yoda made a tactical error in going after Palpatine alone and sending Obi Wan after anakin alone. Anakin was surely a lesser threat than Palpatine, so shouldn't they have teamed up against him? I appreciate that Obi Wan would have been of limited use, but he would have distracted Palpatine if nothing else.

Ane never using the force for offence taken to its logical conclusion implies that no Jedi would ever win a fight.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

^But the only offensive action he has available to him is his lightsaber. Even throwing a few pods back at Palpatine would count as using the Force for attack rather than defence.

I think that's stretching the meaning of using the Force only for defense, not for attack though. That doesn't mean that when the fight is already in progress you can't go on the offensive using the Force, I interpret it to simply mean that a Jedi should preferably not initiate a fight and let his adversary make the first move (and even then there are some exceptions to the rule).

Yoda chucked a Senate pod back at Palpatine and returned Force lightning at him (and at Dooku in AotC). And he knocked Palpatine over with a Force push earlier.

Obi-Wan pulled a giant piece of machinery down on Grievous' guards.

I do wonder if Yoda made a tactical error in going after Palpatine alone and sending Obi Wan after anakin alone. Anakin was surely a lesser threat than Palpatine, so shouldn't they have teamed up against him? I appreciate that Obi Wan would have been of limited use, but he would have distracted Palpatine if nothing else.

Yeah, that was a dumb move tactically (like many Jedi decisions), but made for an awesome sequence cutting back and forth between the two fights, which was the only reason for that choice to be made, really.

If anything, if they had taken out Palpatine first (since they were both on Coruscant anyway) there might have been a chance to turn Anakin back from the Dark Side (though they didn't even seem to consider that an option) or at the very least neutralize or minimize him as a threat since he wouldn't have his Master there to train him as a Sith.

 

[Hermiod]

I think there's a difference in mindset when fighting droids over living things. Jedi use their powers to throw droids around all the time.

Using your lightsaber is not the same as using the Force, so they can win fights.

 

[DarKush]

In the novelization Yoda quit because he realized he couldn't win. He realized that the Sith had evolved while the Jedi hadn't, and so he decided to go into exile.

I think Palpatine fought Yoda to a stand still, plus all Palpatine had to was call his guards and Yoda would've been outnumbered while fighting one of the greatest Sith Lords-if not the greatest-in the Star Wars universe.

Palpatine's saber skills are underrated. He cut through like four Jedi Masters in seconds, fought Mace Windu almost to a draw-I think he allowed Mace to get the upper hand to shift Anakin into his column-and then fought Yoda to a stand still. It was Yoda that ultimately ran away, not Palpatine, and that's before he called on his guards.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Using your lightsaber is not the same as using the Force, so they can win fights.

You said:

"Even throwing a few pods back at Palpatine would count as using the Force for attack rather than defence."

Except Yoda did throw a pod back at Palpatine, as I said. He also deflected his Force lightning back at him, and in a purely offensive move that didn't involve deflecting Palpatine's own attack he Force pushed him in his office beneath the Senate.

Clearly you can use the Force and something other than a lightsaber for an offensive move.

I think "The Force must be used only for defense, never for attack" is simply the Jedi version of "Don't fire unless fired upon." It's not a restriction against using the Force offensively once the battle has already begun, it's a restriction against taking preemptive action.

 

[Skywalker]

As someone who hated seeing both Yoda and the Emperor use lightsabers in the prequels, I disliked that entire fight. In fact, if I could, I'd either delete the whole sequence (which would be difficult since it cuts back-and-forth with Anakin/Obi-Wan) or edit the lightsabers out, if possible. Same for Yoda/Dooku in Episode II.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

As someone who hated seeing both Yoda and the Emperor use lightsabers in the prequels, I disliked that entire fight. In fact, if I could, I'd either delete the whole sequence (which would be difficult since it cuts back-and-forth with Anakin/Obi-Wan) or edit the lightsabers out, if possible. Same for Yoda/Dooku in Episode II.

Yeah, I had the same feeling. I wasn't expecting Yoda or Palpatine fighting to be so ordinary. I thought that they would be way beyond the need for lightsabers. There are some bits of that of course with the Force lightning and throwing the Senate pods, but I always pictured any fight between them to be a massive scale struggle involving buildings toppling and vehicles being thrown around. Nothing so quaint as lightsabers.

I still enjoyed the fight we got, but it wasn't what I'd always imagined it would be.

 

[Starkers]

I liked Yoda/Dooku, but can see what you mean. For me the main problem with the end of sith was that there were two fights going on, and I already knew exactly how they would end - there was zero drama. Obi Wan/anakin had potential, but lost its way once they stopped being the actors and became computer game characters on a sea of lava.

 

[PhotoM]

My answer to this is that Yoda wasn't losing. He was taking everything Palpatine could dish out.

What he couldn't do, however, was go on the offensive. Palpatine's offence (throwing the hovering Senate pods at him) meant that he couldn't get close enough to attack. Remember Empire - a Jedi only uses the Force for defence, never for attack.

Yoda effectively won the fight because Palpatine realised that Yoda was not going to succumb to his offence and decided to run away instead.

That was one of the best fight scenes. Awesome, epic! love to watch it over and over. With that said I was never more mad at a scene in a movie. As soon as it was decided they would fight there was no way to make it make sense.

You cant make it one sided and have yoda's green butt handed to him. But at the same time Yoda can't when. I think Yoda was winning the whole time. Then all the sudden yoda falls off and gives up! He gives up! It made him look like a quitter. Now ask me how I would have wrote it. I don't know.
It was so easy with Anakin and Obi that was pretty much a given. You knew Anakin was going to be injured and in turn lose a fight most likely.

 

[Holdfast]

^ I agree; this must have been a really tough scene to write. On one hand you know Yoda can't beat Palps because of the OT, but on the other, you have to make it very close because otherwise fans will feel cheated.

So it was difficult. And I don't think the balance was quite there. One improvement would have been a brief intercut to make the time pressure on Yoda much more overt (eg some sort of alarm being activated, with legions of clonetroopers being summoned to Senate Chamber). That way, the reason for Yoda fleeing would have been clear - he's never beaten by Palpatine; he just can't beat him in the time available before reinforcements arrive.

That, I think, is already the in-story reason in the movie we got, but it just wasn't as clear as it could be on first viewing to me.

 

[Starkers]

^ I agree; this must have been a really tough scene to write. On one hand you know Yoda can't beat Palps because of the OT, but on the other, you have to make it very close because otherwise fans will feel cheated.

My question would be, why does Yoda even have to fight Palpatine?

 

[Holdfast]

Because everyone, including me, wanted to see it!

 

[Locutus of Bored]

My question would be, why does Yoda even have to fight Palpatine?

You might as well ask "why does Jesus have to fight Mecha-Hitler?" It's destiny, man. You don't question the inevitable, you just roll with the awesomeness.

We'll just forget that your little verbal gaffe here ever happened and move on.

 

[Samurai8472]

Where's John Madden with his play by play?

"Here you got Yoda who knocks out palpatine guards then pulls a fake out on Palpatine."

 

[Jax]

I think Palp was lucky but he wasn't as powerful as Yoda and maybe not even Windu in certian ways hence his need to come up with a plan and control from behind the scenes. Order 66 made it clear he never intended to fight any Jedi's and while he could handle any normal Jedi easy the two biggest threats were a problem but he had pure luck on his side.

I think his fight with Windu he was bested maybe because he was still not using all of his darkside powers, he used so much to mask his apperance from the Jedi and Windu made sure the fight was at slow controlled pace but also incredibly tight so Palp was unable to really get out his force powers. I think Palpatine knew Anakin could be his wildcard though I don't think he was ever 100% sure he would rescue him from Windu.

His fight with Yoda allowed him to use more of his dark power but Yoda for me was the better fighter but with Palp's clone troops, the window was small and limited leading Yoda to take a chance and send that lighting attack back which of course saw luck again give Palp a handle to grab, while Yoda hit the floor...Tired and out of time he knew his one shot was over and fled.

PS - I love the scene where Palp & Yoda enter the senate chamber in the pod and the camera zooms out so EPIC !!! and also the end when Yoda's Jedi robe falls onto that pole, great imagery there.