Yet Another Clip from Phase II's "Mind-Sifter"

[DestinyCaptain]

Your're gonna have to check with the Excalibur fan production on that one, Cap. Joseph Kerezman has some specific ideas about his show...

http://youtu.be/yeIZa3QraFk

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Star-Trek-Excalibur/338034672468

Still, I do think showing at some point would be good.

 

[Maurice]

Well, it wasn't always the case: the decision to phase in the old Phase II Enterprise came before the JJ Abrams movie came out. I think most people (including us at Phase II) were thinking that his Enterprise would be a faithful TOS Enterprise and would be another place to see the old Enterprise.

I'm surprised anyone would have believed that a big budget Hollywood film would duplicate a 45 year old design in anything but spirit.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I certainly never expected to see the TOS ship in the Abrams movie - I was surprised that the final design took so many cues from the original, in fact.

 

[PattyW]

Just a question -- is it my imagination, or are the uniforms fitting the actors a little differently? I noticed it a lot in the other clip on Spock's gold tunic, but it seems to be happening on Kirk's tunic as well. Are you using a new material?

Greg's answer is correct, but also... in this case, we actually chose to have Spock's velour uniform somewhat ill fitting... as is the position is ill fitting to him. (We joke the quarter master didn't want to make him a Captain's uniform.)

In the case of Kirk's uniform, the one in this particular scene is double knit... and it's a "stunt" uniform that we tear up whenever the need arises. (For some reason James objects to me slicing and tearing holes into Shatner's original uniforms that he wears. ) So the fit is not completely tailored. So far, he's worn stunt uniforms in Kitumba to fight, Enemy: Starfleet to roll on the ground, and in Mind-Sifter to be tortured in.

 

[MarsWeeps]

I think most people (including us at Phase II) were thinking that his Enterprise would be a faithful TOS Enterprise

Interesting...I never thought that for a second. You know Hollywood...they love to change things.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think most people (including us at Phase II) were thinking that his Enterprise would be a faithful TOS Enterprise and would be another place to see the old Enterprise.

No, not me, either. One look at one of the large shuttlecrafts, a picture of which was circulating over a year before the film's release, told me that they were going to make things look however they wanted them to.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

I know Mind Sifter is one of the hallowed writings of fan fiction, and it's a fine story, but it has a rather serious story problem that I wonder if the person who wrote the script adaptation has addressed:

Spoiler: Hidden in case someone complains about me 'spoiling' a story that predates the Internet

The Klingons kidnap Captain Kirk to learn how to travel back in time via the slingshot effect, right? Only that doesn't make any sense. Spock was the guy who devised the complex equations that allowed the Enterprise to utilize the effect in a controlled manner. Scotty, the ship's navigator, and maybe Sulu may have helped to implement the procedure, but Kirk's involvement was limited to giving the orders to proceed. If the Klingons wanted the equations that made the slingshot effect possible-and indeed, what else could they have been after-kidnapping Kirk was about the least effective way to go about getting them. It would have been smarter for them to kidnap Spock, or just send a spy to hack the computers that contained the information.

Anyway, I hope the person who wrote the Phase II adaptation was able to find a way to work around this. The two clips we've seen thus far contain some fantastic acting, and this looks to be a very enjoyable episode.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Incorrect.

 

[GSchnitzer]

I know Mind Sifter is one of the hallowed writings of fan fiction, and it's a fine story, but it has a rather serious story problem that I wonder if the person who wrote the script adaptation has addressed:

Spoiler: Hidden in case someone complains about me 'spoiling' a story that predates the Internet

The Klingons kidnap Captain Kirk to learn how to travel back in time via the slingshot effect, right? Only that doesn't make any sense. Spock was the guy who devised the complex equations that allowed the Enterprise to utilize the effect in a controlled manner. Scotty, the ship's navigator, and maybe Sulu may have helped to implement the procedure, but Kirk's involvement was limited to giving the orders to proceed. If the Klingons wanted the equations that made the slingshot effect possible-and indeed, what else could they have been after-kidnapping Kirk was about the least effective way to go about getting them. It would have been smarter for them to kidnap Spock, or just send a spy to hack the computers that contained the information.

Anyway, I hope the person who wrote the Phase II adaptation was able to find a way to work around this. The two clips we've seen thus far contain some fantastic acting, and this looks to be a very enjoyable episode.

It's not about what Kirk knows about the specifics of time travel; it's about what the Klingons *think* Kirk knows about the specifics of time travel. The Klingons probably can't imagine that the person in command of the ship *isn't* actually the Go-To Guy with the knowledge. The Second in Command has the information but the Commander doesn't have it? Really? Would the Klingons even think that? I think the Klingons could be *expected* to assume Kirk would have the information. (Whether they are right or wrong in that assumption really isn't relevant; no harm in torturing the Captain either way.)

Of course, Spock and Kirk have shared minds enough through mind melds that I wouldn't be surprised if enough information on time travel procedure has leaked over into Kirk's brain for the Klingons to extract it. I bet if you tortured Kirk with the Mind-Sifter and went rummaging around in his mind, you would find some of Spock's brain droppings.

(Also, the *published* version of the "Mind-Sifter" story avoids this whole slingshot effect problem by having the Klingons use the Mind-Sifter to find the location of the Guardian of Forever so they can go back in time *that* way--something Kirk probably *would* know.)

All that being said, scriptwriter Patty Wright can weigh in on the matter if she wishes.

 

[PattyW]

Personally, as someone who is competent enough in maritime history to work at the #1 museum, I disagree that the captain of the ship wouldn't know how the ship accomplishes time travel. Yes, Spock figured it out - and at a moment's notice Kirk trusted he knew what he was doing: BUT if the Captain then didn't learn how it was done he is, frankly, incompetent. (despite having sailing masters on board a captain knows how to trim a sail for the current wind and he knows how to load and fire a cannon himself.) I think Kirk has shown us that he is far from incompetent. In fact, he's shown that he's exceptional and knows his ship very well.

As a scriptwriter? I think the basics of Shirley's motivation for the Klingons actions are clear. The Klingons want to travel back in time. Kirk has done it. (more than one way, in fact.) They have every reason to believe he knows how. They don't like him to begin with. It all adds up to a fine reason to torture him if the opportunity to grab him arises. If he doesn't actually know how and they get nothing useful from destroying his mind? I think they would still consider it a victory and a good day's work. (BTW: this scene doesn't actually appear in Shirley's story. It's just referred to.)

I find it curious that you feel this is the "major story problem" with Mind-Sifter. Not bad, not good...just a curious opinion. One I've never heard before. The "major story problems" with MS that I've seen brought up before (and which I may or may not agree with) is that "Spock wouldn't act that way" and that it ends as a "Mary Sue". Another issue is that it is purely a "character story" - something we rarely saw in TOS.

Knowing Shirley's intentions from knowing her personally, I did try to address these in a way that we either discussed years ago or in a way I think she would have approved.

I fear this - or any - adaptation of such a well-know and downright "iconic" fanfic is going to suffer from what I call "The Walt Disney Effect". Shirley's close friends and family believe it is a very faithful adaptation and are thrilled with it. Some fans may think it is too close an adaptation and complain, while others may cry fowl for the changes in it. (When Disney filmed Snow White he was blasted by purists for changing the gruesome story AND blasted by others for the scary scenes he left in it.)

 

[USS Intrepid]

While I'd agree that a captain would be able to carry out routine tasks such as piloting and firing weapons, I find it highly unlikely Kirk would have the training and scientific know how to conduct time travel, which was never suggested as any sort of routine operation. Quite the contrary in fact.

He may understand the basics of how, but I'd be extremely skeptical that it would go beyond that.

I do agree, however, that it is entirely plausible for the Klingons to believe he does. So I don't think it's really an issue.

 

[Captain Randy Hall]

I do agree, however, that it is entirely plausible for the Klingons to believe he does. So I don't think it's really an issue.

For the Klingons, any excuse to go after Captain Kirk is a good one!

 

[Maurice]

Personally, as someone who is competent enough in maritime history to work at the #1 museum, I disagree that the captain of the ship wouldn't know how the ship accomplishes time travel. Yes, Spock figured it out - and at a moment's notice Kirk trusted he knew what he was doing: BUT if the Captain then didn't learn how it was done he is, frankly, incompetent.

That's silly. That's like expecting the captain of an aircraft carrier to know the details of how its nuclear reactors work. Sure, he knows the principle, but he's not a trained expert. Spock's a scientist who understands the calculations, Kirk's not.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Personally, as someone who is competent enough in maritime history to work at the #1 museum, I disagree that the captain of the ship wouldn't know how the ship accomplishes time travel. Yes, Spock figured it out - and at a moment's notice Kirk trusted he knew what he was doing: BUT if the Captain then didn't learn how it was done he is, frankly, incompetent.

That's silly. That's like expecting the captain of an aircraft carrier to know the details of how its nuclear reactors work. Sure, he knows the principle, but he's not a trained expert. Spock's a scientist who understands the calculations, Kirk's not.

Sadly, the Klingons don't know that it's like your aircraft carrier analogy. It's not about what Kirk *does* know; it's about what the Klingons think he *might* know. This is like Spock being confused that the Neanderthal Guys in "The Galileo Seven" didn't behave more logically than they did and that they didn't behave just like he would. I don't think the Klingons have the same understanding and vantage point as We The 45-year-long Viewers have.

 

[MikeH92467]

Personally, as someone who is competent enough in maritime history to work at the #1 museum, I disagree that the captain of the ship wouldn't know how the ship accomplishes time travel. Yes, Spock figured it out - and at a moment's notice Kirk trusted he knew what he was doing: BUT if the Captain then didn't learn how it was done he is, frankly, incompetent.

That's silly. That's like expecting the captain of an aircraft carrier to know the details of how its nuclear reactors work. Sure, he knows the principle, but he's not a trained expert. Spock's a scientist who understands the calculations, Kirk's not.

Actually from my understanding of how the U.S. nuclear submarine fleet works, it is absolutely vital that a captain be an expert on the nuclear reactors. In the U.S. Navy it is a requirement that an aircraft carrier captain must be a qualified aviator. Not that any such nit-picking makes any real difference. It's quite easy for me to believe that the Klingons would target Kirk instead of Spock.

 

[Maurice]

^^^But could he operate one? I rather doubt it.

 

[GSchnitzer]

^^^But could he operate one? I rather doubt it.

Would a terrorist who kidnapped the captain *believe* that the captain could operate one? Yes, I think a terrorist could quite possibly believe that.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Kirk would know enough to point the Klingons in the right direction, so they could fill in the equations on their own, but that being said, I would've stuck with idea that the Klingons were after the location of the Guardian's planet, since that's something Kirk would definitely know the exact location of, and would probably be a bit more of a problem should the Klingons discover it.

Not to mention avoiding little skirmishes like this one.

 

[MikeH92467]

^^^But could he operate one? I rather doubt it.

After checking out this page I disagree. LINK

Not that it matters...really..but nitpicking is fun sometimes!

 

[Maurice]

I was disagreeing with Patty's assertion that the Captain would be "incompetent" if he didn't know how it [time warp] was done, and that I didn't think that was reasonable, as he's simply not going to necessarily have the educational background for that, and certainly not knowing the specifics of the equations involved. I wasn't addressing the Klingons' motivations and what they thought.

(Also, for all the people who want to know what life on a navy ship is REALLY like, watch the PBS series Carrier (here). It's something I think any Star Trek fan filmmakers should watch stem to stern.)