This has probably been covered before, but after watching Yesterday's Enterprise, I started to wonder how it was possible that Guinan would even be on the ship, given her back story of meeting Picard. Obviously, the real world answer is that the story hadn't been written yet for Time's Arrow, but in universe can this be reconciled? Is it still easy to say that there was a Data in the 19th century in this timeline, given that he wouldn't travel there from the future? Time's Arrow was basically set up as a loop that really could not be broken, but Yesterday's Enterprise somewhat invalidates that.
Yesterday's Enterprise Guinan question
- Thread starter Ryan8bit
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I believe the title of William Shatner's most well known book applies here.
I'd be more worried about all the damage to the timeline that Picard orchestrated in First Contact by going to back 2063, epecially giving Lilly first hand knowledge of the Enterprise-E and the future.
Thankfully I'm not worried because it's A STORY!
I'd be more worried about all the damage to the timeline that Picard orchestrated in First Contact by going to back 2063, epecially giving Lilly first hand knowledge of the Enterprise-E and the future.
Thankfully I'm not worried because it's A STORY!
Doesn't that generally apply to this whole forum though? I'm not all huffy about the issue or insanely critical of all the details. I'm just trying to make some conversation while I'm bored at work.
Thankfully I'm not worried because it's A STORY!
I'm definitely not worried, but isn't consistency a good thing even in "A STORY"?
You mean: "Why is Guinan on the ship in the alternate timeline?" Easy:
From the 19th century point of view, both timelines are a possible future - because the timelines diverge in the 24th century, not earlier. Which means, that the "alternate" 24th century may have had a past that was visited by people from the "original" 24th century, thus leading to Guinan becoming the E-D bartender in both timelines...
This may also answer the question: "How did Guinan know that something was 'not right' about the timeline she was in?"
From the 19th century point of view, both timelines are a possible future - because the timelines diverge in the 24th century, not earlier. Which means, that the "alternate" 24th century may have had a past that was visited by people from the "original" 24th century, thus leading to Guinan becoming the E-D bartender in both timelines...
This may also answer the question: "How did Guinan know that something was 'not right' about the timeline she was in?"
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I believe the title of William Shatner's most well known book applies here.
I'd be more worried about all the damage to the timeline that Picard orchestrated in First Contact by going to back 2063, epecially giving Lilly first hand knowledge of the Enterprise-E and the future.
Thankfully I'm not worried because it's A STORY!
Yeah dude, if we all took Shatner's advice, this forum prolly wouldn't exist, and I would have to go out and talk to REAL people....
I hate that...
jk
I can definitely see the possibility of branching alternate universes, but the problem is mostly in the portrayal of timelines in Star Trek. Yesterday's Enterprise definitely points to alternate universes being forged, while Time's Arrow points to a sort of predestined, one timeline kind of universe. That's probably more the issue than anything.
Well ... do we know that the ``Time's Arrow'' incidents were what impelled Guinan to seek out Picard centuries later? Why mightn't Guinan have ended up hanging about Star Fleet just because it was a place where interesting things were going on and she had the chance to meet someone it turned out she had met before?
You may call that implausible, but is it less plausible than Guinan crossing paths with Scotty twice in successive centuries?
I see from the script for ``Yesterday's Enterprise'' at twiztv.com that, apparently, Guinan tried to describe herself in the alternate timeline as Picard's advisor for 22 years. (Why does that number sound naggingly familiar?) I believe that was dropped from the aired episode.
But that would contradict the Guinan backstory from ``The Child'', where she says --- presumably without lying to Wesley since what would she have to gain by that other than messing with Wesley's head? --- that she hadn't met Picard until she came on board. So the intent, albeit not supported by stuff on-screen, seems to be that Guinan ended up where she was by different but compatible circumstances in ``Yesterday's Enterprise'' and its alternate timeline.
I suppose The Doctor just popped in and dealt with the time aliens stealing San Franciscan precious body fluids in the 1890s when Team Picard failed to.
That's long been my pet theory as well.You mean: "Why is Guinan on the ship in the alternate timeline?" Easy:
From the 19th century point of view, both timelines are a possible future - because the timelines diverge in the 24th century, not earlier. Which means, that the "alternate" 24th century may have had a past that was visited by people from the "original" 24th century, thus leading to Guinan becoming the E-D bartender in both timelines...
This may also answer the question: "How did Guinan know that something was 'not right' about the timeline she was in?"
It seems that in Trek, as well as in super-hero comics, the "rules" of time travel vary with the method used.
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Our Doctor or that other one with the phone booth?
Wait a minute, why are we thinking that the 19th century alien vampires story couldn't have happened close to what it originally did in the alternate 19th century? Sure the Federation would be at war, but the evidence could still have been discovered on Earth, the Enterprise sent to investigate, and the whole thing coming to conclusion. I don't see a temporal discrepancy here.
Her preceptive "abilties" akin to her race probably reached through the vortex and was able to touch the "real universe' to precieve things were not right. Once the portal closed it's entirely possible her preception would've ended.
I believe the title of William Shatner's most well known book applies here.
I'd be more worried about all the damage to the timeline that Picard orchestrated in First Contact by going to back 2063, epecially giving Lilly first hand knowledge of the Enterprise-E and the future.
Thankfully I'm not worried because it's A STORY!
Totally un-called for. This board is all about this sort of minutiae. I'd much rather see this than 10 pages of sombrero jokes.
Now you've done it.
Her echo is stuck in the Nexus, too, so she has access to knowledge about anywhere, any time on the timeline. Picard and Kirk were not just echoes in the Nexus and could actually choose to leave "anywhere, anytime".
...Although it's IMHO much more interesting that, in the alternate circumstances of the war timeline, they don't. In fact, they put up quite a bit of resistance against this "noble" thing at first.
Which goes against the literal truth of "Time's Arrow" anyway. From Guinan's point of view, she unambiguously first met Captain Picard in the 19th century. That is, unless "Time's Arrow" and "The Child" take place in subtly different timelines.
Guinan could be telling an outright lie to hide the existence of time travel from the general public (including nosy kids who actually probably already know quite a bit about time travel), or to hide this specific incident from Picard until he has had the chance to go back in time. Guinan could also be more subtly disingenious, perhaps saying she had Picard figured out all wrong originally (didn't "know" him), or omitting the fact that the two will first meet when Guinan comes aboard some vessel (perhaps the Enterprise where a time-traveling Picard resides, long before the 19th century. Whatever the explanation, she ain't telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth there.
Timo Saloniemi
Which goes against the literal truth of "Time's Arrow" anyway. From Guinan's point of view, she unambiguously first met Captain Picard in the 19th century. That is, unless "Time's Arrow" and "The Child" take place in subtly different timelines.
Guinan could be telling an outright lie to hide the existence of time travel from the general public (including nosy kids who actually probably already know quite a bit about time travel), or to hide this specific incident from Picard until he has had the chance to go back in time. Guinan could also be more subtly disingenious, perhaps saying she had Picard figured out all wrong originally (didn't "know" him), or omitting the fact that the two will first meet when Guinan comes aboard some vessel (perhaps the Enterprise where a time-traveling Picard resides, long before the 19th century. Whatever the explanation, she ain't telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth there.
Timo Saloniemi
It's entirely possible that by revealing her meeting with Picard in the 19th century, she would've put in motion events that stopped that meeting from ever happening. From Guinan's perspective, it would've been imperative that she kept all information regarding the events of Times Arrow secret or else it could've caused catastrophic changes in both history and the future.
It's also quite possible that at the time of her conversation with Wesley, she never HAD met Picard before she joined the Enterprise. Remember that Picard hadn't yet gone back to 19th century Earth in Time's Arrow and met her. This assumes that it was all on the same timeline.
I think she was telling the truth "from a certain point of view"...namely, the Captain's. Season 2 Picard is the earliest version of Picard that she met.
I assume you mean't to write ' "jokes" '
I've always wondered what she was doing on the alternate-history Enterprise in the first place. Why would a WARSHIP have a barkeep?
Considering all the effort Tasha went through to explain to Castille about the spartan existence they led in the 'Fleet, wouldn't Guinan be an unnecessary expenditure of resources?
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