WYLB Questions

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I just finished watching DS9 all the way through for the third time and I watched the finale twice in a row just.. because it was so sad to have it end again. Some questions for you all:

1. WHAT exactly did Odo do to make the Changeling change her mind? He must have had some revelation/growth himself to have something new to give her as he had joined with her before. I wish there had been some explanation given.

2. What does Sarah the Prophet mean when she tells Sisko, "Your journey's end lies not before you, but behind you." She says this before he goes to the fire caves (his vision in Vic's). Is his journeys end the Celestial Temple and did he somehow come from there because his mother was a prophet? So that's "behind" him? Also why does Sarah seem to have a grasp of linear time and talk about it unlike the other prophets?

3. When Quark talks about taking bets on who is to be the new Kai.. how does he know Winn is dead? The only people that witnessed this were Dukat and Sisko. It's not like she's been missing long enough to be declared dead.

4. In the memories montage why does Worf only have memories of Ezri and not a single one of Jadzia? Is it because Klingons "have shorter mourning periods" and Jadzia is now in Stovokor so somehow not someone he has nostalgia for? Though he certainly brings her up an awful lot to Ezri.

Well that's all, I'm sure you've all chewed these over before but I'm interested to see what people say. Third time viewing all the way through I was struck by how pathetic it is that Kain Winn's pride blocked her from hearing the prophets and yet she was also of no value to the Pah Wraiths once they had used her to release them (though it occurs to me now that probably no one would be and Dukat would not have been some grand galactic ruler but just ashes once they started burning up the galaxy).

 

[Myasishchev]

I just finished watching DS9 all the way through for the third time and I watched the finale twice in a row just.. because it was so sad to have it end again. Some questions for you all:

1. WHAT exactly did Odo do to make the Changeling change her mind? He must have had some revelation/growth himself to have something new to give her as he had joined with her before. I wish there had been some explanation given.

Odo had the cure for the Founders' plague. It is implicit that unless the Dominion stood down, the nasty Solids that gave them that plague would not permit Odo (or, following the demonstration of that cure's effectiveness in WYLB, Salome Jens) to go back to the Great Link to cure it. In other words, she agreed to an unconditional surrender because the only other option was extinction for the only people she gave a shit about, namely the Changelings.

2. What does Sarah the Prophet mean when she tells Sisko, "Your journey's end lies not before you, but behind you." She says this before he goes to the fire caves (his vision in Vic's). Is his journeys end the Celestial Temple and did he somehow come from there because his mother was a prophet? So that's "behind" him? Also why does Sarah seem to have a grasp of linear time and talk about it unlike the other prophets?

I guess it's a Dr. Manhattan-vision type deal, like you say.

3. When Quark talks about taking bets on who is to be the new Kai.. how does he know Winn is dead? The only people that witnessed this were Dukat and Sisko. It's not like she's been missing long enough to be declared dead.

Investigation into the whiny guy's disappearance, or just her own failure to show up for work, might have revealed her dabbling in the occult, and given rise to a presumption of death-by-pah-wraith, or otherwise a vedek-driven impeachment in absentia.

4. In the memories montage why does Worf only have memories of Ezri and not a single one of Jadzia? Is it because Klingons "have shorter mourning periods" and Jadzia is now in Stovokor so somehow not someone he has nostalgia for? Though he certainly brings her up an awful lot to Ezri.

My understanding is that it is simply that Jadzia was played by an actress no longer on the show. I'm unsure whether it was a royalties issue, or a spite issue. Could be either, could be both, I suppose.

Well that's all, I'm sure you've all chewed these over before but I'm interested to see what people say. Third time viewing all the way through I was struck by how pathetic it is that Kain Winn's pride blocked her from hearing the prophets and yet she was also of no value to the Pah Wraiths once they had used her to release them (though it occurs to me now that probably no one would be and Dukat would not have been some grand galactic ruler but just ashes once they started burning up the galaxy).

Imo, the pah wraiths/Evil Dukat/Kai Winn/Space Jesus stuff, all of that, hugely detracted from the quality of Season 7 for me. It was such a sideshow, and such a dull one at that.

 

[nx1701g]

1. WHAT exactly did Odo do to make the Changeling change her mind? He must have had some revelation/growth himself to have something new to give her as he had joined with her before. I wish there had been some explanation given.

Two reasons. As Myasishchev said it was because Odo agreed to cure the Founders but there is another reason. During (I believe the Occupation arc) there is a scene where the Founder says that Odo is more important to the Great Link than the entire Alpha Quadrant and that they would trade the entire AQ for his return to the Link. Since he agreed to go back to the Dominion that would be another turning point that led to her surrender.

Personally I always thought it would've been far more interesting if she had ordered her fleet to attack.

2. What does Sarah the Prophet mean when she tells Sisko, "Your journey's end lies not before you, but behind you." She says this before he goes to the fire caves (his vision in Vic's). Is his journeys end the Celestial Temple and did he somehow come from there because his mother was a prophet? So that's "behind" him? Also why does Sarah seem to have a grasp of linear time and talk about it unlike the other prophets?

It's been a while since I last watched the episode but I always interpreted it that she meant the end of the jouney wasn't the end of the Dominion War at Cardassia and that she meant his journey would end with Bajor becoming safe. When he defeated Wraith Dukat that was the end of his journey.

3. When Quark talks about taking bets on who is to be the new Kai.. how does he know Winn is dead? The only people that witnessed this were Dukat and Sisko. It's not like she's been missing long enough to be declared dead.

Good point. Maybe they scanned the Fire Caves after Kassidy's vision and found traces of her in the caves.

4. In the memories montage why does Worf only have memories of Ezri and not a single one of Jadzia? Is it because Klingons "have shorter mourning periods" and Jadzia is now in Stovokor so somehow not someone he has nostalgia for? Though he certainly brings her up an awful lot to Ezri.

I read somewhere that it was that they refused to pay Farrel for her scenes used in the montage and, for that, she denied them the rights to her likeness.

 

[Jono]

1. WHAT exactly did Odo do to make the Changeling change her mind? He must have had some revelation/growth himself to have something new to give her as he had joined with her before. I wish there had been some explanation given.

2. What does Sarah the Prophet mean when she tells Sisko, "Your journey's end lies not before you, but behind you." She says this before he goes to the fire caves (his vision in Vic's). Is his journeys end the Celestial Temple and did he somehow come from there because his mother was a prophet? So that's "behind" him? Also why does Sarah seem to have a grasp of linear time and talk about it unlike the other prophets?

If I'm recalling it correctly, she says it when Sisko's on his way to Cardassia, Sisko simply figures out what it means while he's at the post-war party at Vic's. As has been said, its a reference that what he needs to do is back on Bajor, which he has left to go end the war.

As for linear time, the Sarah Prophet lived what four or five years in Sarah Sisko. She experienced linear time first hand and that would give her a greater understanding of it then the others who just chill out in the wormhole.

3. When Quark talks about taking bets on who is to be the new Kai.. how does he know Winn is dead? The only people that witnessed this were Dukat and Sisko. It's not like she's been missing long enough to be declared dead.

How much time has gone by between Sisko's disappearance and the final scene? It's long enough for the allies and the Dominion to hammer out a treaty, for Odo and Kira to take a trip to the Gamma Quadrant and for the crew moving on to pack up and moved out of the station. Personally I'd say that would be weeks rather than just a day or two.

4. In the memories montage why does Worf only have memories of Ezri and not a single one of Jadzia? Is it because Klingons "have shorter mourning periods" and Jadzia is now in Stovokor so somehow not someone he has nostalgia for? Though he certainly brings her up an awful lot to Ezri.

It had to do with not getting the rights to show Jadzia. I think I remember something about them using Jadzia's image earlier in the season without Farrell's permission and her/her people gave them grief over it.

Well that's all, I'm sure you've all chewed these over before but I'm interested to see what people say. Third time viewing all the way through I was struck by how pathetic it is that Kain Winn's pride blocked her from hearing the prophets and yet she was also of no value to the Pah Wraiths once they had used her to release them (though it occurs to me now that probably no one would be and Dukat would not have been some grand galactic ruler but just ashes once they started burning up the galaxy).

Given how the Prophet's operate they probably purposefully didn't talk to Winn because she had a role to play in their war with the Pah Wraiths. If they talk to her no one would take the book to the caves and Sisko wouldn't be able to seal them in forever. So basically she was screwed from the get go, a pawn who had no chance and whose fate was sealed by those on high.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

1. WHAT exactly did Odo do to make the Changeling change her mind? He must have had some revelation/growth himself to have something new to give her as he had joined with her before. I wish there had been some explanation given.

Two reasons. As Myasishchev said it was because Odo agreed to cure the Founders but there is another reason. During (I believe the Occupation arc) there is a scene where the Founder says that Odo is more important to the Great Link than the entire Alpha Quadrant and that they would trade the entire AQ for his return to the Link. Since he agreed to go back to the Dominion that would be another turning point that led to her surrender.

AH.. that is what I'm was looking for, your second point. I knew I had missed something.

Personally I always thought it would've been far more interesting if she had ordered her fleet to attack.

Me too. Just like.. DO IT. Maybe she should have sensed that Odo would have gone to the Gamma quadrant to heal his people no matter what.

4. In the memories montage why does Worf only have memories of Ezri and not a single one of Jadzia? Is it because Klingons "have shorter mourning periods" and Jadzia is now in Stovokor so somehow not someone he has nostalgia for? Though he certainly brings her up an awful lot to Ezri.

I read somewhere that it was that they refused to pay Farrel for her scenes used in the montage and, for that, she denied them the rights to her likeness.[/QUOTE]

So.. what would be the In Universe explanation?

 

[DevilEyes]

So.. what would be the In Universe explanation?

Sometimes there just isn't one. You just have to learn to deal with it.

Too bad that they did not have the rights to use her scenes, since that really detracted from the moment and I found it grating... but at least they have an excuse for it, and it was not nearly as grating as the Pah-wraiths/red eye Dukat/Sarah Sisko stuff.

Well that's all, I'm sure you've all chewed these over before but I'm interested to see what people say. Third time viewing all the way through I was struck by how pathetic it is that Kain Winn's pride blocked her from hearing the prophets and yet she was also of no value to the Pah Wraiths once they had used her to release them (though it occurs to me now that probably no one would be and Dukat would not have been some grand galactic ruler but just ashes once they started burning up the galaxy).

Given how the Prophet's operate they probably purposefully didn't talk to Winn because she had a role to play in their war with the Pah Wraiths. If they talk to her no one would take the book to the caves and Sisko wouldn't be able to seal them in forever. So basically she was screwed from the get go, a pawn who had no chance and whose fate was sealed by those on high.

Probably. If there's anything that we can be sure about the Prophets, it's that they either treat those lowly humanoids as pawns, or don't give a crap about them in the first place.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So.. what would be the In Universe explanation?

Sometimes there just isn't one. You just have to learn to deal with it.

eh.. not me. I'm going with "Klingons have shorter mourning periods." I think he was completely at peace with her being dead so he had no nostalgia and instead remembered more recent events that had not been put to rest by the necessity of death.

Well that's all, I'm sure you've all chewed these over before but I'm interested to see what people say. Third time viewing all the way through I was struck by how pathetic it is that Kain Winn's pride blocked her from hearing the prophets and yet she was also of no value to the Pah Wraiths once they had used her to release them (though it occurs to me now that probably no one would be and Dukat would not have been some grand galactic ruler but just ashes once they started burning up the galaxy).

Given how the Prophet's operate they probably purposefully didn't talk to Winn because she had a role to play in their war with the Pah Wraiths. If they talk to her no one would take the book to the caves and Sisko wouldn't be able to seal them in forever. So basically she was screwed from the get go, a pawn who had no chance and whose fate was sealed by those on high.

Probably. If there's anything that we can be sure about the Prophets, it's that they either treat those lowly humanoids as pawns, or don't give a crap about them in the first place.

Yes that is a good explanation ("screwed from the get go") and makes her more of a tragic figure. I mean plenty of Bajorans were probably selfish power whores but they didn't end up used by the prophets, used by the pah wraiths and evaporated in the fire caves. If the prophets actually allowed her to fail spiritually to the point of turning to the pah wraiths for their own ends that is very creepy.

I suppose she was the Bajoran Judas in that sense. Fore ordained to play a role for which she would be forever condemned.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the absence of Jadzia from Worf's set of memories, I'd also question the absence of non-DS9 memories overall. Surely we aren't supposed to think that the characters actually had these specific thoughts floating through their heads or anything? It was just art for art's sake - and the missing Jadzia was probably less of an offense than a missing Grilka or K'Ehleyr or a missing year of meditation in the Boreth monastery...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

Regarding the absence of Jadzia from Worf's set of memories, I'd also question the absence of non-DS9 memories overall. Surely we aren't supposed to think that the characters actually had these specific thoughts floating through their heads or anything? It was just art for art's sake - and the missing Jadzia was probably less of an offense than a missing Grilka or K'Ehleyr or a missing year of meditation in the Boreth monastery...

Timo Saloniemi

We were supposed to be watching Worf's memories of his life on DS9, or flashbacks to his life on DS9 shown for the audience (take your pick). In any case, Jadzia should have featured in those more than anyone else. K'Ehleyr was certainly a very important part of his life, but not a part of his life on DS9. Grilka was just never than important.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Regarding the absence of Jadzia from Worf's set of memories, I'd also question the absence of non-DS9 memories overall. Surely we aren't supposed to think that the characters actually had these specific thoughts floating through their heads or anything? It was just art for art's sake - and the missing Jadzia was probably less of an offense than a missing Grilka or K'Ehleyr or a missing year of meditation in the Boreth monastery...

Timo Saloniemi

It was all about him saying goodbye to DS9 and that part of his life being over.

 

[Damask]

]Me too. Just like.. DO IT. Maybe she should have sensed that Odo would have gone to the Gamma quadrant to heal his people no matter what.

To do that he would need to go through the wormhole and that would be up to Sisko (and the Federation).

It was really established that Odo and her people meant more to her. I thought it was possibly the best way to end the war.

 

[Timo]

It does leave something of a rancid aftertaste, though: why did Odo deliberately cause all those billions of deaths when his surrendering would have ended the suffering at once?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

It does leave something of a rancid aftertaste, though: why did Odo deliberately cause all those billions of deaths when his surrendering would have ended the suffering at once?

Timo Saloniemi

What are you talking about?

 

[Jono]

Yes that is a good explanation ("screwed from the get go") and makes her more of a tragic figure. I mean plenty of Bajorans were probably selfish power whores but they didn't end up used by the prophets, used by the pah wraiths and evaporated in the fire caves. If the prophets actually allowed her to fail spiritually to the point of turning to the pah wraiths for their own ends that is very creepy.

I suppose she was the Bajoran Judas in that sense. Fore ordained to play a role for which she would be forever condemned.

It would be creepy if we assume the Prophet's actually care about the Bajoran. It's possible they don't and just care about Bajor - their maximum security Pah Wraith prison.

It does leave something of a rancid aftertaste, though: why did Odo deliberately cause all those billions of deaths when his surrendering would have ended the suffering at once?

Timo Saloniemi

What are you talking about?

He's suggesting that if all it took to end the war was for Odo to say, "I'm moving back home to be with the Link", then if he did that at the start of the war it would have been over quickly with a minimal loss of life.

 

[Damask]

He's suggesting that if all it took to end the war was for Odo to say, "I'm moving back home to be with the Link", then if he did that at the start of the war it would have been over quickly with a minimal loss of life.

Not really. Odo having the cure was the deal breaker. Hell the Female Founder was getting through to him in the middle of the war. Fairly sure they thought he was always going to come back.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

]Me too. Just like.. DO IT. Maybe she should have sensed that Odo would have gone to the Gamma quadrant to heal his people no matter what.

To do that he would need to go through the wormhole and that would be up to Sisko (and the Federation).

Oh I think ODO of all people could have managed to procure a ship and go through the wormhole without doing a bunch of Federation paperwork.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes that is a good explanation ("screwed from the get go") and makes her more of a tragic figure. I mean plenty of Bajorans were probably selfish power whores but they didn't end up used by the prophets, used by the pah wraiths and evaporated in the fire caves. If the prophets actually allowed her to fail spiritually to the point of turning to the pah wraiths for their own ends that is very creepy.

I suppose she was the Bajoran Judas in that sense. Fore ordained to play a role for which she would be forever condemned.

It would be creepy if we assume the Prophet's actually care about the Bajoran. It's possible they don't and just care about Bajor - their maximum security Pah Wraith prison.

Huh. That's an interesting take on it. The Occupation might have served the Prophets well if the Cardassians had gotten around to destroying the book that held the key to the prison.

 

[flemm]

Not really. Odo having the cure was the deal breaker. Hell the Female Founder was getting through to him in the middle of the war. Fairly sure they thought he was always going to come back.

Actually, I don't think either the cure or Odo's return to the link is the defining element. Odo wasn't going to allow the genocide to take place anyway, and the Founder would hardly change her opinion on the basis of what would basically amount to blackmail of the worst possible kind: "stand down or we will complete our genocidal scheme." This would have confirmed all her worst prejudices concerning solids and their hatred for changelings.

The key factor is that, by linking with Odo at this stage in his life, she learns that she may have been wrong about solids from the beginning. Remember, the female changeling had always argued that Odo could never truly be happy among the solids because a solid could never truly love a changeling.

Since they last linked, however, Odo had experienced unconditional love, notably in Chimera and Tacking Into the Wind.

That is why Odo had to link with the Founder to convince her. It's not about exchanging information or making a deal, all of which could be done with words. It was about Odo sharing his experiences with her. That's also why Odo knows he can convince her.

This is really what defines Odo's character arc over the course of seven seasons: his desire to fully experience life among the solids is what finally brings an end to the war and saves millions of lives in the process. I think it's pretty clear that Rene Auberjonois performs this scene with his character's love story in mind. His expression and tone of voice correspond to that kind of intense feeling. He's not negociating a cease-fire. He's sharing an intimate experience.

At least that's how I interpret it, though the writers wisely didn't try to be too explicit on this point. Sometimes it's better not to spell things out.

 

[rahullak]

At least that's how I interpret it, though the writers wisely didn't try to be too explicit on this point. Sometimes it's better not to spell things out.

Yep, so we can all exposit on Internet bulletin boards as brilliantly as you have done.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

To me it is just too cliched that the experience of true love changed the female changeling's mind. The Changelings have been around solids in the Gamma quadrant for centuries, I think they probably have a keen understanding of the ways of solids.

Their agenda has been one of conquering worlds for a very long time and they have built whole races for this purpose. I don't think it was ever clearly shown why they are conquerors, surely it can't all be out of fear? I think it would be very twee for a revelation of looooove to change all that.